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Malcolmbru(at)AOL.COM
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 Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 3:59 pm Post subject: Hydraulic brakes |
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I have a KF2 finished in 1999 and can find nothing in my records on the
brakes. They are hydraulic and look like matko but they have no writing at all
on them. They are all aluminum and the peddles look just like the ones in
the builders manual as do the axis one caliper is sticking , the rotor
gets real hot and the other is leaking rite through the wall. like a poris spot
in the aluminum What to do?
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KITFOXPILOT(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 4:24 pm Post subject: Hydraulic brakes |
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Couple of things to look at: One of the spacers on the calipers could =
be binding and needs to be cleaned. As for the leak, O ring in the =
caliper could be bad allowing the leak and both problems are an easy =
fix. Matco sells the new O rings and new spacers if you are unable to =
clean them!
Ray
---
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runwayrex(at)juno.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 4:26 pm Post subject: Hydraulic brakes |
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Those probably are Matco brakes. I changed from Matco to Cleveland and w=
as very impressed with the difference. With the Matco brakes, some peopl=
e were breaking rudder pedals trying to hold the plane during run-ups. W=
ith the Clevelands, rudder pedal forces were greatly reduced. That's my =
experience.
Rex Phelps/ Michigan
-- Malcolmbru(at)aol.com wrote:
I have a KF2 finished in 1999 and can find nothing in my records on the=
=
brakes. They are hydraulic and look like matko but they have no writ=
ing at all =
on them. They are all aluminum and the peddles look just like the on=
es in =
the builders manual as do the axis one caliper is sticking , the roto=
r =
gets real hot and the other is leaking rite through the wall. like a po=
ris spot =
in the aluminum What to do? =
=
=
=
=
=
=
=
<html><P>Those probably are Matco brakes. I changed from Matco to Clevel=
and and was very impressed with the difference. With the Matco brakes, s=
ome people were breaking rudder pedals trying to hold the plane during r=
un-ups. With the Clevelands, rudder pedal forces were greatly reduced. T=
hat's my experience.</P>
<P>Rex Phelps/ Michigan</P>
<P><BR><BR>-- Malcolmbru(at)aol.com wrote:<BR>--> Kitfox-=
List message posted by: Malcolmbru(at)aol.com<BR><BR>I&=
nbsp;have a KF2 finished in 1999 and =
can find nothing in my records on&nb=
sp;the <BR>brakes. They are hydraulic&nb=
sp;and look like matko but they&nbs=
p;have no writing at all <BR>on them. =
; They are all aluminum and th=
e peddles look just like the ones&nb=
sp;in <BR>the builders manual as do =
the axis one caliper is sticking&nb=
sp;, the rotor <BR>gets real hot and=
the other is leaking rite through th=
e wall. like a poris spot <BR>in &nbs=
p;the aluminum What to do? <BR><BR><BR><B=
=
sp; - The Kitfox-List =
bsp;many List utilities such as the Subscr=
=
=
=
=
=
sp; - NEW MATRONICS LIST&nbs=
nbsp; &=
nbsp; &=
nbsp; &=
=
=
bsp; Thank you for your generous sup=
p; &nbs=
p; -Matt Dralle,&nbs=
=
<BR><BR><BR><BR> =
;<BR> <BR> <BR><BR><BR><BR></P></html>
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fordm2003(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject: Hydraulic brakes |
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How many other people out there have Cleveland brakes? Do you like them? I have just recently broken the left control arm off of my model 4's rudder pedal.
About two weeks before that, I was attempting to fix a small weep at the caliper (weeping at the fitting). After I got the pedals bled, I'd test them out. I've always had a hard time breaking the tail wheel free when spinning to the right. I would also have a hard time getting the plane to go straight after a successful spin to the left (which is why I looked into the brake fluid weep in the first place)
When testing the brakes, I'd use them in a heavy manner trying to get them to hold enough to spin the plane, but I ended up fatiguing the rudder pedal assembly instead.
I've tried to the weep about 7 times, even took it to an A&P, but all the fussing has ended up making the leak worse. I would now be happy with the leak I had before trouble shooting.
I'm currently having my pedals fixed and reinforced.
Are Cleveland brakes a world of difference?
I've also read up on the brake it procedure for the Matco brakes. I have not tried it yet. I was told that they look to be worn in correctly.
Mike Ford
M4 speedster 912
Rexster <runwayrex(at)juno.com> wrote:
Those probably are Matco brakes. I changed from Matco to Cleveland and w=
as very impressed with the difference. With the Matco brakes, some peopl=
e were breaking rudder pedals trying to hold the plane during run-ups. W=
ith the Clevelands, rudder pedal forces were greatly reduced. That's my =
experience.
Rex Phelps/ Michigan
-- Malcolmbru(at)aol.com wrote:
I have a KF2 finished in 1999 and can find nothing in my records on the=
=
brakes. They are hydraulic and look like matko but they have no writ=
ing at all =
on them. They are all aluminum and the peddles look just like the on=
es in =
the builders manual as do the axis one caliper is sticking , the roto=
r =
gets real hot and the other is leaking rite through the wall. like a po=
ris spot =
in the aluminum What to do? =
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail goes everywhere you do. Get it on your phone.
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smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 7:43 pm Post subject: Hydraulic brakes |
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Hi Mike,
If you read any airplane for sale papers, they always
proudly say they have Clevelands when they do. It is
a selling point because they work and the Matco's are
paper weights in comparison.
Nothing is cheap, but replacing the brakes might keep
you from bending the plane in the future.
Mine work and hold the plane on runup with maybe 35%
of the force I could put on them. That is with a 140
HP engine, but run up at about 40% power. I have run
it up harder, but I'd worry about nosing over with
100% power before the brakes would slide. It doesn't
seem to need any more brake force, even at higher
power.
kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- Mike Ford <fordm2003(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
.............
| Quote: | Are Cleveland brakes a world of difference?
Mike Ford
M4 speedster 912
|
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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 8:07 pm Post subject: Hydraulic brakes |
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Mike, this is from the old days, but one oldtimer I respected quite a bit
when he was on the list cautioned about too much braking on a tail dragger.
I have the matcos and yes it takes a bit of pressure to hold the airplane
during run-up, but I can easily lift the tail wheel with heavy breaking on
landing. The rudder pedal failures were an issue and the reinforcement was
ADd several years ago. As to the assymetry in braking, obviously that needs
addressing.
Lowell
---
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morid(at)northland.lib.mi
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 2:22 am Post subject: Hydraulic brakes |
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Mike, those Clevelands are good brakes and probably the best you can get.
Sounds like you may have a tiny crack at the caliper that gets wider when
you tighten up the bleeder fitting. The threads are tapered and the tighter
you make it the wider the crack would spread, if a crack actually exists.
It also sounds as if you may have gotten some fluid on the pads on that side
which would make them ineffective. I'd suggest removing that caliper to the
bench and use a strong magnifier light to check out the cause of the leak.
Dye penitrent works best. Barring all that you can send the caliper back to
Cleveland. I'm sure they'll fix you up. Good luck.
Deke
---
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runwayrex(at)juno.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 2:38 am Post subject: Hydraulic brakes |
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Deke,
I don't picture Cleveland being willing to fix Mike's Matco brakes.
Rex Phelps/ Michigan/ Model 3
-- "Fox5flyer" <morid(at)northland.lib.mi.us> wrote:
s>
Mike, those Clevelands are good brakes and probably the best you can get=
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bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 2:41 am Post subject: Hydraulic brakes |
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I had this very problem recently, as well. I replaced my "sliders" with
bronze bushings, cut down to the right size. Now, I can push the pedal to
the floor, or full stroke of the master cylinder. It shouldn't be this way.
I think I will look at swapping out to Cleveland, as I'm not impressed with
the Matco setup.
California Power Systems seem to have a nice setup, yanked from go-karts.
Requires a new wheel, but it looks like it would work very well. Then again,
the Matco LOOKS like it should work, too.
Bradley
--
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morid(at)northland.lib.mi
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 3:33 am Post subject: Hydraulic brakes |
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Oops. I guess I should have finished my coffee before I read his email.
Tnx Rex
---
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dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 5:19 am Post subject: Hydraulic brakes |
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Is anyone running Groves brakes? I haven't heard anyone mention them and this is what I purchased as an up-grade to replace the Matco's that come with the kit. I'm still building and curious how others like the Grove's product.
Dan B
Mesa, AZ
www.azshowersolutions.com/Kitfox1.html
Fox5flyer <morid(at)northland.lib.mi.us> wrote:
Oops. I guess I should have finished my coffee before I read his email.
Tnx Rex
---
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CrownLJ(at)verizon.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 5:37 am Post subject: Hydraulic brakes |
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Mike,
Most of the problems with the Matco brakes stem from the installation =
of them. By this I mean that the brake is a brake - same laws of physic =
as any other. If you are experiencing poor braking, it is most likely =
due to the design of the rudder/brake pedal to brake piston linkage not =
allowing the required mechanical advantage which has to be a minimum of =
3:1. Check out Matco's website for the details/drawings. Additionally, =
the KF's brake pedal assy does need some reinforcing, as they are prone =
to crack. This can be done easily by adding a gusset across that =
corner, or there is a retro kit available. As for the leaking, I am =
assuming that you have plastic lines going to the master cylinder at the =
pedal? I had a heck of a time getting the lines tight without deforming =
the compression "washer" over the plastic line. I ended up using a =
brass insert in the line, and then the compression "washer" to help =
prevent it from deforming and leaking. Even at that, it took a couple =
tries to get it right without leaks. I have been successful for a year =
or so now - hope I didn't just ask for trouble! I had a terrible time =
with the brakes on mine, but all is sorted out now and I still have the =
Matco brakes and am completely satisfied. If you think that you did not =
brake in the pads correctly, put a sander on the pad to remove any glaze =
and then use the procedure as per the Matco instructions. Again, to =
compare brands - they are all working with the same laws of physics and =
are working with the same principles of operation and they even look the =
same dimensionally. I think that you would experience the same problems =
regardless of the name on the part. I would continue to trouble shoot, =
and save the $$ and thoughts of changing names.
When I got my airplane, I could not turn onto the runway without =
getting out and moving the tail. I would not fly anywhere I thought I =
would need brakes. After much help from Matco, I discovered that my =
airplane and a 1:1.2 ratio instead of the needed 1:3 min. After making =
the required changes - I am most satisfied!
Remember - this is fun!
Larry
Time: 08:06:44 PM PST US
From: Mike Ford <fordm2003(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Hydraulic brakes
How many other people out there have Cleveland brakes? Do you like =
them? I have
just recently broken the left control arm off of my model 4's rudder =
pedal.
About two weeks before that, I was attempting to fix a small weep at the =
caliper
(weeping at the fitting). After I got the pedals bled, I'd test them =
out. I've
always had a hard time breaking the tail wheel free when spinning to the =
right.
I would also have a hard time getting the plane to go straight after a
successful spin to the left (which is why I looked into the brake fluid =
weep in
the first place)
When testing the brakes, I'd use them in a heavy manner trying to get =
them to hold
enough to spin the plane, but I ended up fatiguing the rudder pedal =
assembly
instead.
I've tried to the weep about 7 times, even took it to an A&P, but all =
the fussing
has ended up making the leak worse. I would now be happy with the leak =
I had
before trouble shooting.
I'm currently having my pedals fixed and reinforced.
Are Cleveland brakes a world of difference?
I've also read up on the brake it procedure for the Matco brakes. I =
have not tried
it yet. I was told that they look to be worn in correctly.
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fordm2003(at)yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 10:10 am Post subject: Hydraulic brakes |
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Thanks for the good ideas for trouble shooting the caliper for cracks. I might have to move up to the bench to get a good look.
Larry,
Thanks for the feedback. I do think that the brakes would benifit from a fresh brake in. I also highly suspect that you could right on target when you mention the mechanical advantage ratio. I will have to look into that as well.
Thanks for all the replies!
Mike
M4 speedster 912
Larry Martin <CrownLJ(at)verizon.net> wrote:
Mike,
Most of the problems with the Matco brakes stem from the installation =
of them. By this I mean that the brake is a brake - same laws of physic =
as any other. If you are experiencing poor braking, it is most likely =
due to the design of the rudder/brake pedal to brake piston linkage not =
allowing the required mechanical advantage which has to be a minimum of =
3:1. Check out Matco's website for the details/drawings. Additionally, =
the KF's brake pedal assy does need some reinforcing, as they are prone =
to crack. This can be done easily by adding a gusset across that =
corner, or there is a retro kit available. As for the leaking, I am =
assuming that you have plastic lines going to the master cylinder at the =
pedal? I had a heck of a time getting the lines tight without deforming =
the compression "washer" over the plastic line. I ended up using a =
brass insert in the line, and then the compression "washer" to help =
prevent it from deforming and leaking. Even at that, it took a couple =
tries to get it right without leaks. I have been successful for a year =
or so now - hope I didn't just ask for trouble! I had a terrible time =
with the brakes on mine, but all is sorted out now and I still have the =
Matco brakes and am completely satisfied. If you think that you did not =
brake in the pads correctly, put a sander on the pad to remove any glaze =
and then use the procedure as per the Matco instructions. Again, to =
compare brands - they are all working with the same laws of physics and =
are working with the same principles of operation and they even look the =
same dimensionally. I think that you would experience the same problems =
regardless of the name on the part. I would continue to trouble shoot, =
and save the $$ and thoughts of changing names.
When I got my airplane, I could not turn onto the runway without =
getting out and moving the tail. I would not fly anywhere I thought I =
would need brakes. After much help from Matco, I discovered that my =
airplane and a 1:1.2 ratio instead of the needed 1:3 min. After making =
the required changes - I am most satisfied!
Remember - this is fun!
Larry
Time: 08:06:44 PM PST US
From: Mike Ford
Subject: Re: Hydraulic brakes
How many other people out there have Cleveland brakes? Do you like =
them? I have
just recently broken the left control arm off of my model 4's rudder =
pedal.
About two weeks before that, I was attempting to fix a small weep at the =
caliper
(weeping at the fitting). After I got the pedals bled, I'd test them =
out. I've
always had a hard time breaking the tail wheel free when spinning to the =
right.
I would also have a hard time getting the plane to go straight after a
successful spin to the left (which is why I looked into the brake fluid =
weep in
the first place)
When testing the brakes, I'd use them in a heavy manner trying to get =
them to hold
enough to spin the plane, but I ended up fatiguing the rudder pedal =
assembly
instead.
I've tried to the weep about 7 times, even took it to an A&P, but all =
the fussing
has ended up making the leak worse. I would now be happy with the leak =
I had
before trouble shooting.
I'm currently having my pedals fixed and reinforced.
Are Cleveland brakes a world of difference?
I've also read up on the brake it procedure for the Matco brakes. I =
have not tried
it yet. I was told that they look to be worn in correctly.
---------------------------------
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bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 4:03 pm Post subject: Hydraulic brakes |
|
|
I sure would like to know how you did it. Mine basically suck. The design is
flawed, and while I'm no engineer, I can see that it doesn't work as good as
it could.
What happens on mine is that the point of "impact" on the brake pad is not
inline with the brake pad. This causes the pad plate to flex and twist when
the caliper applies pressure. When it flexes, it tries to torque on the
sliders, binding them up instead of sliding. Basically, the sliders are too
far away from the center of pressure, introducing a fulcrum, of sorts, to
the assembly. Instead of sliding, it binds up and tries to rotate. So my
peddle pressure is not only squeezing the disc, it is having to overcome the
friction created from the binding on the sliders.
It sounds like others are having similar problems. I called Matco, and they
told me that I needed to ensure I was getting 450psi minimum at the caliper.
Agreed, 2.5:1 is the drawing. But he said that you do what you have to, to
get 450psi.
He said to port into the bleed location, and then inline between the caliper
and the master cylinder. This might show where the problem lies.
Either way, I shouldn't be getting full master cylinder travel when I pres
on them. Between the binding and the squeezing, the master cylinder should
linearly increase resistance as I push on it, regardless of the caliper
issues, until I can't push it anymore. I'm bottoming out.
Now I could be leaking past the seals internally, and I suspect that. But I
sure would like to have a better caliper design.
Bradley
--
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