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...and another thing

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VE3LVO(at)rac.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 6:14 am Post subject: ...and another thing

Again, off topic.

The following text demands reply:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 >mikenjulie.parkin(at)btopenworld.com>

        "This is a guy who's flown hundreds of different aircraft, flown 

 for

the military, has 20,000 hours plus, and is a certified test pilot."

        An instructor of mine once told me that to get a true feeling for 

 the

experience of a pilot,  divide his total flying hours by the number of 

pilot

seats multiplied by the number of engines the aircraft has.

        For example, an airline pilot who has flown 20,000 hours in a big 4 

 jet

would be 20000/(2*4) equals 2500.  The rationale behind this is that if you

fly long haul, in 2 by 13 hour sectors you might get one landing and one

take-off.  How many take-off and landings would you get in your Europa in 

26

hours of flying.


	


            If one notes the above, what connection is there between 

"hundreds of aircraft,....the military, ....test pilot" - and sitting in an 

airliner?

            First of all of if one plans to learn anything in the next 2500 

hours, perhaps the target pilot already has this experience? 26 hours in 

Europas might mean 50 landings - one month's flying in some airlines. One 

assumes the writer has the public's opinion of airline drivers - we all know 

stewardesses fly, passengers fly, but pilots just sit there.

            The difference is, previous airline pilots have often come from 

more experience than a Europa will produce in its total existence - and 

that's just one aircraft...........

            It's easy to take a swipe. The silent majority are not swiping - 

or as the jokesters say, "laisser faire and let laisser faire".



Ferg Kyle

Europa A064 914 Classic

Dave Miller

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 51

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 6:54 am Post subject: ...and another thing

Ferg,



I think you are trying to stir things up on a slow day !



All I know is, that with the number of glider hours and landings I have, I 

should be a better pilot than I am.



As for tri-gear V mono, with limited time in the left side of a tri-gear, 

and limited time in the right side of a mono, two things are very obvious:

a)  the tri-gear is a particularly pleasant aircraft to land

b) my tri-gear is quite a bit slower than the mono, however I've still got 

to re-install the wheel pants and some of the fairings.



see you soon I hope,

Dave A061



do not archive

mikenjulie.parkin(at)btop
Guest

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:56 pm Post subject: ...and another thing

 	  Quote: 	
		   One  assumes the writer has the public's opinion of airline drivers - we 

 all know

 stewardesses fly, passengers fly, but pilots just sit there.


	


Your assumption would be incorrect.  The writers opinion comes from many 

years of military and commercial flying.  This last month has only required 

70 hrs flying - mainly being chased about at low level by exercising 

fighters trying shoot me (simulated) with every weapon you could imagine.  I 

don't  have anywhere near 30,000 hrs but I do have enough to have stopped 

counting.

As a Training Captain I have flown with quite a few of these previously 

experienced pilots who as stick and throttle men could not 'fly their way 

out of a wet paper bag'.

Some of my friends who were first class military pilots who have moved on to 

big commercial jets.  They have become very professional operators in 

Commercial Air Transport but admit that their basic flying skills are not 

what they once were.  This is hardly surprising when on many modern 

transport aircraft the first action when encountering an engine failure on 

take-off is to engage the autopilot.

In many companies the required approach is a coupled ILS to minima - it is 

true that the handling pilot does get to fly the flare sometimes.

My moderate experience enables me to do my job to an adequate standard but 

most people slow down with age - experience is valuable but I suspect that 

the time will come when it is not enough.  The vision of myself sat in a 

corner dribbling on my carpet slippers is not a comforting thought.



Does all this make me an expert with small bug-smashers - certainly not - 

irrespective of the landing gear configuration.



I love my little Europa - I built it, warts and all.  It is a pocket rocket 

when compared with the average spamcan.  Is it demanding? - YES.  Having 

been bit once with a ground loop while trying (overconfidently) to land in a 

strong crosswind I am very cautious.



I confess to being mildly irritated with the attitude of some people when 

they criticise Ivan's original creation.  The Europa is a sport aircraft and 

the monowheel can be sporty, but to me, that is what it is all about.  For 

those who want a form of transport that is easy to operate then the tri-gear 

is for you.  Or perhaps a spamcan is more suitable.



I will probably regret rising to Fergus' missive but I'll get back in my box 

now.



regards,



Mike Parkin  (Europa XS  MONOWHEEL - G-JULZ)



Do Not Archive

tonyk(at)kaon.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: ...and another thing

I've had the pleasure of flying both mono and trike versions of the

Europa and have just been asked to do the 25 hour test flight programme

on a Europa trike that's about to arrive in NZ which I will happily do. 



If you have nice fat tarmac runways that you always operate off then the

trike is great - but in places where grass is the dominant surface and

some of those surfaces are unprepared (and at times quite narrow) then

I'd take a monowheel into those locations anytime whereas I'd think

twice about using the trike off those strips. 



One of Ivan's design considerations was that the aircraft should be able

to operate of an unprepared farm field hence the monowheel

configuration. Many pilot's, myself included, love the monowheel

configuration and no, I don't end each landing feeling that I've just

survived an horrific experience. The mono has actually taught me how to

correctly land an aircraft and I wouldn't have missed acquiring that

skill for anything. 



The mono is great for taking to the beach as it handle firm sand

beautifully. It's hard to beat landing a monowheel Europa on a deserted

black sand beach, cooking up a batch of big NZ greenlip mussels

collected off the rocks and then flying home after a most satisfying

day.



Believe me, the trike at times, with its finger brakes, can be just as

'entertaining' to handle as the monowheel. Like all aircraft it takes

practice, experience and good airmanship to handle an aircraft well, be

it a monowheel or a trike



The mono v strike debate will go on for as long as there is a Europa

flying. Some people will never feel comfortable flying the monowheel and

for those people they have the opportunity to fly the trike. For those

of us who have got to know the monowheel you just have to accept that we

love using our aircraft in locations which are ideally suited to the

design and have a propensity for walking around with stupid grins on our

faces after flying one.



Regards



Tony

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 3:42 pm Post subject: ...and another thing

I also know of a situation where the trigear was at a disadvantage. A

visiting trigear once landed at a grass strip where the surface was

soft. Although the resident monowheel was operating in and out of the

strip with two on board, the trigear was unable to get airborne with its

passenger. In the end the trigear was flown out solo and picked up the

passenger at another airfield.



The Europa trigear is a fine aircraft but it is not unique. There are

several other kit aircraft which come close to its performance and

economy. The monowheel however is still very different from any other

light aircraft after 13 years since the prototype first flew. It is

certainly a more demanding aircraft to fly but since pilot training has

been set up and handling information passed on there have been far fewer

incidents/accidents.



If ease of piloting is paramount then the trigear is a must but if you

want a slightly lighter, faster and more economical aircraft that can

handle a more varied selection of airstrips the monowheel is a unique

alternative. It is just a matter of deciding whether your skills can be

tuned to what is required. 



As fuel costs on the eastern side of the Atlantic are still over twice

that in the USA it is no wonder that the Europa (the monowheel in

particular) is more popular in Europe with its excellent fuel

efficiency. However the recent large price increases in crude oil is

bound to refocus potential buyers towards more efficient aircraft and

this should be good for the Europa.



 

Nigel Charles



--

robsonpr(at)clear.net.nz
Guest

Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 2:18 am Post subject: ...and another thing

Tony, I think you've got a few things wrong, old chap.

I had to have a 40 hour flight test period and I can't see why anybody 

should get away with any less.

 	  Quote: 	
		  From whom did you get permission to land on the beach?  ?Te Rauparaha? You 

probably need a quota to collect those muscles.
	


But the main point is, all this business about ground loops and breaking 

propeller blades can at least be ameliorated in three ways. One is to say to 

yourself three times on your take off  and three times on your short final 

"STICK BACK. STICK BACK. STICK BACK"  and as soon as you are on the ground, 

do it. Do not answer to the reflex to check forward when you bounce.

Another is, fit a Robson mod to your Singleton tail wheel/rudder mod with 

your tail wheel cables attached 100mm out from the centre line. This results 

in the wheel being deflected to the same angle (30 degrees) as the rudder 

instead of a greater angle which is the cause of the twitchiness and 

steering difficulty at fast and moderate taxiing speeds. It also takes a 

longer pedal movement to achieve the same tail wheel movement and is 

therefore more controllable.

Another aid is to have a little bit of sticky tape at the base of your 

windscreen which is lined up with a small aerial type of thing half way down 

your cowling  arranged so that the (imaginary) line from one to the other is 

exactly parallel to the axis of the fuselage. You use these markers and a 

tree dead ahead on the horizon to line the plane up perfectly as you set 

down. Until I put this gadget on I would not have believed I could be so far 

out when thinking that the plane was straight for landing.  If you always 

sit with the same posture you can also use this set up to make sure you are 

getting the tail wheel down first. I always sit in the same posture. The 

breadth of my butt does not allow anything else!



Regards, Peter.

from Peter Robson    Robsonpr(at)clear.net.nz.

---

BEBERRY(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 2:39 am Post subject: ...and another thing

Mono v Trike??  I have no comments  about the flying  characteristics and th=

e

difficulties of landing and taking off for eirther type  on differing

terrains , having only a relatively small experience of  both...BUT..the mon=

o just

does not look like a proper aeroplane. Why should this  affect my judgement?=

  I

don't really know except for a natural prejudice  which is the same one that=



persuades me that even for =A31 a day all in no-one  would persuade me to ta=

ke a

trip on one of these new cruise ships that look like  nothing more than a

block of flats on a raft.



Personally if you want to go for both looks and safety, coupled with decent=



all terrain usability, then a conventional tail dragger is best.   There are=



one or two around and they are great.



A bit of a stir to raise some comment!



Patrick

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 3:34 am Post subject: ...and another thing

I agree that on the ground the monowheel looks a bit strange. However

when it is in the air with the gear retracted I think it looks the part

more than the trigear.



With regards to a conventional tailtragger version it would be a more

viable proposition if the airframe was designed for it in the first

place. The positioning of the hard points for mounting the main gear in

this configuration calls for some inventive engineering. The engineer in

the UK who has done about 6 of these conversions reckons to allow about

2 months to do the work and he is familiar with the job. I believe, like

the trigear, it adds more weight to the airframe and only slightly eases

the handling skills required. One conventionally geared Europa a few

years ago sheared an undercarriage leg after a groundloop. Whilst this

was totally the fault of the pilot it shows that it is not the answer if

you wish to make the handling easier.



Nigel Charles



--

paul.mcallister

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 4:58 am Post subject: ...and another thing

Well, I think Ferg had a bit of time on his hands and is just twisting our

tails.



Just think about it for a moment.  Us guys that have finished our aircraft

have it pretty tough, gee on the weekends there is none of this going out to

comfy workshop stuff, no, we have to figure out where are going to have to

fly.  Hmm, what should I do, perhaps take a run up to Lake Superior, or

should I fly the Chicago skyline and stop for a lunch.... decisions,

decisions.



Then there are the evening, when I have to figure out where I am going for

my next cross country, oh darn, should I take it down to the Bahamas again,

or over to the Canadian Rockies for  week.  Gee we have it tough.



And then there is the problem of finding of a loo or getting a bite to eat,

gee should I stop and that nice litte airport below and borrow the crew car,

or should we not....



Ferg and the other builder have it so easy, hmm let me see, what should I do

next, ahh, lets open the Europa build manual and see.  Time to eat or hit

the loo... gee lets run in from the workshop.



No doubt about it, Ferg has it easy.



Paul



do not archive

ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
Guest

Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 5:17 am Post subject: ...and another thing

Hear hear!



Duncan Mcf.

do not archive

---

ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
Guest

Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 5:38 am Post subject: ...and another thing

Not quite correct Nigel.

I've done two conventional gear conversions and they took 100 hours each; 

these did not include the shortcuts that were incorporated in the '6 or so' 

others.



The 'inventive engineering' is already included in the design of the 

conversion and, whilst probably being over-engineered, provides a lighter 

undercarriage than the mono. The handling is, according to one Europa test 

pilot (who has his own mono), vastly improved.



The gear leg that sheared was groundlooped in to long hummocky grass, 

resulting in the wheel digging-in laterally and side-loading the leg well 

beyond its FAR23-compliant design. At which point the handling would, as you 

say, become less easy! But try that with a mono and the outriggers may get 

damaged and/or  the LG01 distorted.



I do agree that the mono looks better in the air (with the wheel retracted), 

but there is no drag advantage (except in the landing configuration when the 

extended wheel provides a useful airbrake, reducing float).



Duncan McF.



---

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 5:51 am Post subject: ...and another thing

If Ferg needs a bit of  "gee up" motivation he should take a look  at

the "Spirit Lifters" I posted on the Matronics Photo Share System 23

October 2005 and the one of the "Vulcan and Concord" 9th July 2005.

Eat your heart out Ferg.!!!!



Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru3300 



Do not archive.



--

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 7:07 am Post subject: ...and another thing

 	  Quote: 	
		  I've done two conventional gear conversions and they took 100 hours

each; 
	


these did not include the shortcuts that were incorporated in the '6 or

so' 

others.<



You are obviously quicker than David Hunter who has done about 6

conversions.



 	  Quote: 	
		  The 'inventive engineering' is already included in the design of the 

conversion and, whilst probably being over-engineered, provides a
	


lighter 

undercarriage than the mono. The handling is, according to one Europa

test 

pilot (who has his own mono), vastly improved.<



Some of David's conversions were significantly heavier after completion.



 	  Quote: 	
		  The gear leg that sheared was groundlooped in to long hummocky grass, 

resulting in the wheel digging-in laterally and side-loading the leg
	


well 

beyond its FAR23-compliant design. At which point the handling would, as

you 

say, become less easy! But try that with a mono and the outriggers may

get 

damaged and/or  the LG01 distorted.<



I did say that it was pilot error. There was no criticism of the

conventional gear engineering. My point was that either version can be

groundlooped.



Nigel

ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
Guest

Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 11:28 am Post subject: ...and another thing

---

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