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kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:20 am Post subject: sticking valve

have recieved a suggestion for Marvel Mystery Oil from Lowell and will try some magic with this. 

  

spent a frustrating hour trying to log on to the Rotax Owners' site, then tried to reregister, still no joy. 

  

have any of you had experience with sticking valves on the 912ul?  Happened to me yesterday on startup causing a great deal of vibration until culprit finally loosened up and then the engine ran fine.   

  

Anyone know what Rotax recommends? 

  

John

 [quote][b]

Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:53 am Post subject: sticking valve

John, I have never had a problem with valves sticking in my Rotax.

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuilt

 Rockford, IL

 On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:17 PM, <kerrjohna(at)comcast.net (kerrjohna(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		     

have recieved a suggestion for Marvel Mystery Oil from Lowell and will try some magic with this. 

  

spent a frustrating hour trying to log on to the Rotax Owners' site, then tried to reregister, still no joy. 

  

have any of you had experience with sticking valves on the 912ul?  Happened to me yesterday on startup causing a great deal of vibration until culprit finally loosened up and then the engine ran fine.   

  

Anyone know what Rotax recommends? 

  

John

 	  Quote: 	
		  



3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



	


	


-- 

Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford,IL

  [quote][b]

redrocketrider

Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 67
Location: Nervino airport

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:51 pm Post subject: sticking valve

Hey John, Might have been a  plug that decided to start firing, flooded start? ours is starting to run and  start easier after I changed all diaphragms and o' Rings in carbs.  It  would really shake until the plugs cleared. Ethanol caused major problems in  fuel system.(previous Owner)   Slowly making friends with foxy!   Bob

  

 [quote]   On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:17 PM, <kerrjohna(at)comcast.net (kerrjohna(at)comcast.net)>    wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		                 

have recieved a suggestion for Marvel Mystery Oil from Lowell and will      try some magic with this.     

      

spent a frustrating hour trying to log on to the Rotax Owners' site, then      tried to reregister, still no joy.     

      

have any of you had experience with sticking valves on the 912ul?       Happened to me yesterday on startup causing a great deal of vibration until      culprit finally loosened up and then the engine ran fine.       

      

Anyone know what Rotax recommends?     

      

John

 	  Quote: 	
		  



3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



	


	


-- 

Pat    Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford,IL

 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

	
[b]

_________________
Keep the dirty side down/Blue skies. Bob

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:01 pm Post subject: sticking valve

On Thu, August 4, 2011 12:17 pm, kerrjohna(at)comcast.net wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   have recieved a suggestion for Marvel Mystery Oil from Lowell and will try some magic

 with this.


	


Personally, I'm pretty leery of additives. "Top Oil" might do the trick but there's

more to the story.



One thing that comes to mind is discovering the cause. One cause is too long an oil

change interval. Another serious one is lead fouling. If you use, for example Mobil 1

synthetic and get trapped into buying 100 LL you must immediately change the oil.



 	  Quote: 	
		   have any of you had experience with sticking valves on the 912ul?Â  Happened to me

 yesterday on startup causing a great deal of vibration until culprit finally loosened

 up and then the engine ran fine.Â


	


I would change the oil to an approved Synthetic such as Castrol Syntec as a first

step. If that doesn't stop the problem completely after a couple of hours of engine

operation and half a dozen or so cold starts, use only Mogas until the next oil

change. You should be good for 50 hours of engine operation on an oil change. Probably

more but for me 2 cents worth. 50 hours or 6 months is a good maximum, whichever comes

first.



Sticking valves and lifters stop sticking when you add a "Top Oil" within minutes. The

gunk that is freed up, winds up in the oil filter as a noticeable slime.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Anyone know what Rotax recommends?


	


They specifically recommend not using any oil additives. They also insist on using

oils that are lead compatible if you use leaded gasoline such as 100 LL.



So, change your oil and filter immediately. Use Castrol Syntec since it is widely

available. Do not use Mobil 1 since it is not compatible with leaded gasoline. If that

doesn't immediately solve your problem, try one of the Top Oils sold at NAPA. If it

were mine and I had to use a sticky valve Top Oil treatment, I'd change the oil again

well before the 50 hour interval.



Hopefully, just an oil change and not using 100LL for a while will do the trick.



-- 

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

PAF Consulting Engineers

Office 425.440.9505

Cell 425.241.1618

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:42 pm Post subject: sticking valve

Thanks all.  No compression on subsequent pull through by hand.  Occurrence was in fact on the flight that was meant to warm to oil for a too long delayed change. Will follow Paulson suggestion of running with the new oil for a couple of hours before using an additive. No 100LL for two years so lead sludge probably not the cause. Ben using a recommended Penzoil motorcycle oil. Will consider using a different oil next change

John

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 4, 2011, at 5:58 PM, "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On Thu, August 4, 2011 12:17 pm, kerrjohna(at)comcast.net wrote:

> have recieved a suggestion for Marvel Mystery Oil from Lowell and will try some magic

> with this.

 Personally, I'm pretty leery of additives. "Top Oil" might do the trick but there's

 more to the story.

 One thing that comes to mind is discovering the cause. One cause is too long an oil

 change interval. Another serious one is lead fouling. If you use, for example Mobil 1

 synthetic and get trapped into buying 100 LL you must immediately change the oil.

> have any of you had experience with sticking valves on the 912ul?Ã‚  Happened to me

> yesterday on startup causing a great deal of vibration until culprit finally loosened

> up and then the engine ran fine.Ã‚

 I would change the oil to an approved Synthetic such as Castrol Syntec as a first

 step. If that doesn't stop the problem completely after a couple of hours of engine

 operation and half a dozen or so cold starts, use only Mogas until the next oil

 change. You should be good for 50 hours of engine operation on an oil change. Probably

 more but for me 2 cents worth. 50 hours or 6 months is a good maximum, whichever comes

 first.

 Sticking valves and lifters stop sticking when you add a "Top Oil" within minutes. The

 gunk that is freed up, winds up in the oil filter as a noticeable slime.

> Anyone know what Rotax recommends?

 They specifically recommend not using any oil additives. They also insist on using

 oils that are lead compatible if you use leaded gasoline such as 100 LL.

 So, change your oil and filter immediately. Use Castrol Syntec since it is widely

 available. Do not use Mobil 1 since it is not compatible with leaded gasoline. If that

 doesn't immediately solve your problem, try one of the Top Oils sold at NAPA. If it

 were mine and I had to use a sticky valve Top Oil treatment, I'd change the oil again

 well before the 50 hour interval.

 Hopefully, just an oil change and not using 100LL for a while will do the trick.

 -- 

 Paul A. Franz, P.E.

 PAF Consulting Engineers

 Office 425.440.9505

 Cell 425.241.1618

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:32 pm Post subject: sticking valve

On Thu, August 4, 2011 5:44 pm, John wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thanks all.  No compression on subsequent pull through by hand.  Occurrence was in

 fact on the flight that was meant to warm to oil for a too long delayed change. Will

 follow Paulson suggestion of running with the new oil for a couple of hours before

 using an additive. No 100LL for two years so lead sludge probably not the cause. Ben

 using a recommended Penzoil motorcycle oil. Will consider using a different oil next

 change


	


John,



Don't toss that drained oil. Take a good sample and get it analyzed. Be careful to not

contaminate the sample.



The best place and handiest is to get it analyzed by an Authorized Caterpillar

Laboratory. There's only 4 of them in the US, I think. Go to any large highway truck

dealer that services Cat engines and they will send it off to the lab. You'll get the

results in about a week by e-mail. You'll know for sure if the oil failed and by what

mechanism. You'll also know a very detailed list of contaminants and metals in the

oil.



The report will show the viscosity, the breakdown of viscosity, carbon fouling. I do

it on every oil change on big trucks and of course, airplane engines. The cost of the

analyses varies around the country but is about $24. There are other independent labs

but I have a great deal of trust in the Caterpillar labs. Incidentally there are a few

questions they ask so you have a running record for each engine. The want to know

engine hours or miles and based on the analyses they will recommend a new oil change

interval. The factory recommendation on Cat C-15 engines is 15,000 miles but after

several oil changes, that has been advanced to 60,000 miles. In a diesel engine, soot

fouling and viscosity increase are the main determining factors. They will even be

able to tell you if your air filter is not functioning. That happened on one of our

trucks - and induction air leak increased the amount of silicon in the oil and they

offered the warning and subsequent checking found a loose hose.



-- 

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

PAF Consulting Engineers

Office 425.440.9505

Cell 425.241.1618

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:29 am Post subject: sticking valve

>John, I have never had a problem with valves sticking in my  Rotax.<

  

 Lions 1, Christians nothing...Pat !

                                                         Dick Maddux

                                                         Fox 4

                                                         Nilton,Fl

      



 [quote][b]

paul perry

Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 36

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: sticking valve

I had this problem on my KF IV Speedster 912ul a couple of years ago after I had started using gas containing ethanol.  I am not the builder of my plane, but it was finished in 2001 and I think was a late 90's kit from SKy Star. They coated the fiberglass fuel tanks with a product called "kreem". There have been several reported instances where it seems this was not applied correctly by the factory and after a few years started "peeling off " as I discovered was happening to mine. This exposed the bare fiberglass which was not the type that is ethanol resistant. My sticking valve problem started gradually with cyl 1 or 2, but got so bad before I figured out what was going on, that after a couple of hours since shutting down, I would have no compression on any cylinder at all...I could spin the prop by hand the same as if I had a spark plug  removed from each cylinder. Anyway, I confirmed where the problem was coming from first by visually inspecting the inside of the tanks with a small video camera hooked up to a laptop where I could see all the bare fiberglass. I then hooked up an external tank I converted from an out board motor and ran some clean fuel with some type of fuel system cleaner (don't remember what brand), for about an hour and bam...no more sticking valves. I realize there a many possible causes of sticking valves, and this may not apply to your situation, but I thought it worth mentioning...I struggled with the problem for a long time, before someone pointed me in the right direction. If this ends up being your problem as well, you can search for keywords like "kreem" and fuel tank problems as there are many posts about the problem and solutions people have used... Good luck, Paul

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:43 pm Post subject: sticking valve

On Fri, August 5, 2011 4:34 pm, Lloyd Eggstaff wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I had a severe sticky intake valve problem with my 912. It was from using "

 no ethonal auto fuel". I found out that even no ethonal auto fuel can have

 other additives that can attack fiberglass tanks. I got the sticky valves

 freed up by removing the valve covers and intake manifolds and soaking the

 guides and vlves with Aerokroil. It took several aplications but I have not

 had any further problems. I only use avgas now!


	


Lloyd,



Could that be back in the MTBE era? That additive is no longer used. You should find

that even 10% ethanol gasoline produces less fouling and deposits than leaded

gasoline.



You do have to have fuel lines, tank coatings and other components that are designed

and tested for use with ethanol.



-- 

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

PAF Consulting Engineers

Office 425.440.9505

Cell 425.241.1618

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:50 pm Post subject: sticking valve

I had a Kreem delamination problem in a car. It took me a year and a half to figure out it wasn't a vapor lock problem. The pieces that dislodged were large and would temorarily block the pickup inside the tank. In my opinion there is no way to guarentee a tank liner against delamination. I used  POR 15 tank liner on a little trail bike with good success. But, don't believe I'd ever use any tank liner in an aviation application or even automotive if I can buy a new tank, no matter what the tank cost. POR makes the best tank liner available. But I'd never use any tank linet in an airplane.

  

Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford, IL

On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 7:32 PM, paul perry <pperryrph(at)sbcglobal.net (pperryrph(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "paul perry" <pperryrph(at)sbcglobal.net (pperryrph(at)sbcglobal.net)>

  

 I had this problem on my KF IV Speedster 912ul a couple of years ago after I had started using gas containing ethanol.  I am not the builder of my plane, but it was finished in 2001 and I think was a late 90's kit from SKy Star. They coated the fiberglass fuel tanks with a product called "kreem". There have been several reported instances where it seems this was not applied correctly by the factory and after a few years started "peeling off " as I discovered was happening to mine. This exposed the bare fiberglass which was not the type that is ethanol resistant. My sticking valve problem started gradually with cyl 1 or 2, but got so bad before I figured out what was going on, that after shutting down, I would have no compression on any cylinder at all...I could spin the prop by hand the same as if I had a spark plug  removed from each cylinder. Anyway, I confirmed where the problem was coming from first by visually inspecting the inside of the tanks with a small video camera!

    hooked up to a laptop where I could see all the bare fiberglass. I then hooked up an external tank I converted from an out board motor and ran some clean fuel with some type of fuel system cleaner (don't remember what brand), for about an hour and bam...no more sticking valves. I realize there a many possible causes of sticking valves, and this may not apply to your situation, but I thought it worth mentioning...I struggled with the problem for a long time, before someone pointed me in the right direction. If this ends up being your problem as well, you can search for keywords like "kreem" and fuel tank problems as there are many posts about the problem and solutions people have used... Good luck, Paul

  

 

 

 

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-- 

Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford,IL

  [quote][b]

paul perry

Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 36

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: sticking valve

Just to clarify my post. I don't believe the ethanol in the gas caused the Kreem to come off the tanks...this is thought to have been caused during the manufacturing of the tanks..specifically the failure of the company to properly prepare the inside of the tanks before applying the Kreem. Properly applied, the Kreem would have prevented the ethanol in the gas from acting as a solvent with the fiberglass resin (left unprotected where the Kreem had come off). I believe it was this "dissolved resin" in the gas that caused the sticking valves in my engine. Again, that's what I found to be my problem, and by no means the only possible cause of sticking valves.   Paul P.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:39 am Post subject: sticking valve

5 years and over 1100 hours of successful Kreem application and  

running with 100LL in my Kitfox.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062

Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)

Status: flying with "Ramcharger" intake manifold...1152 hrs (since  

3-27-2006)

On Aug 6, 2011, at 10:46 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I had a Kreem delamination problem in a car. It took me a year and  

 a half to figure out it wasn't a vapor lock problem. The pieces  

 that dislodged were large and would temorarily block the pickup  

 inside the tank. In my opinion there is no way to guarentee a tank  

 liner against delamination. I used  POR 15 tank liner on a little  

 trail bike with good success. But, don't believe I'd ever use any  

 tank liner in an aviation application or even automotive if I can  

 buy a new tank, no matter what the tank cost. POR makes the best  

 tank liner available. But I'd never use any tank linet in an airplane.



 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:36 am Post subject: sticking valve

.>>>>I only use avgas now!<<<<

  Llyod,

  Good luck with your plugs,valve guides and slipper clutch !

                                   Dick Maddux

                                   912 Ul

                                    Fox 4 

                                   Milton,Fl



 [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:09 am Post subject: sticking valve

Dick-



I have VERY good luck with valve guides, plugs, and slip.....OOPS! no  

slipper clutch! and I use 100LL exclusively. I guess different  

engines have different needs. Especially when those different engines  

are "spanked" to make 'em work right. : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062

Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)

Status: flying with "Ramcharger" intake manifold...1155 hrs (since  

3-27-2006)

do not archive



On Aug 7, 2011, at 10:34 AM, Catz631(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   .>>>>I only use avgas now!<<<<

  Llyod,

  Good luck with your plugs,valve guides and slipper clutch !

                                  Dick Maddux

                                  912 Ul

                                   Fox 4

                                  Milton,Fl

 www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

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