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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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 Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:37 am Post subject: De-sulfating Question |
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| Quote: |
Are you familiar with some of the companies touting their battery de-sulfaters? Is this process a hoax, or what is the story behind these things? I don’t find any questions or answers in the archives, but this enquiring mind wants to know. |
My earlier reply to this was somewhat hurried . . . I think
I was on my way out the door.
The art, science and alchemy of battery restoration
is as old as the battery itself. I recall seeing ads
in the back of Popular Mechanics when I was a kid
advertising various pills, potions and notions that
would "make your battery last 10x longer" or "bring
new life to a dead battery."
When somebody asked why folks who know more about
batteries than anybody (the manufacturers) didn't
offer such products, the standard saw was, "Well . . .
those guys just want to sell more batteries . . . so
they design-in a certain service life. It just would
not do to have an off-the-shelf battery routinely deliver
10 years of service. That would put them out of the battery
business."
Of course, hundreds of honorable suppliers of goods
and services put that myth to rest by being the very
best at what they knew how to do with every intention
of capturing the majority of market share. It
doesn't compute that a super-whippy manufacturer of
batteries doesn't go for the gold.
Which brings up another thought: If you do have
the ultimate success in any process or product,
then to protect your $millions$ in profits, you
spend some portion of those $millions$ to patent
and then hire lawyers to defend those patents.
So, upon getting the first whiff of the odor
of snake oil one of the first places to go look
is at freepatentsoline.com or some similar
service. I've found several devices of one flavor
or another which propose to recover a dead battery,
make good batteries last longer, etc. Of course,
being awarded a patent only says your idea is
different from all others similarly recorded
in the patent office . . . in no way is it an
endorsement of the idea's functionality.
As best I can determine, de-sulfaters are the
latest pass at parting the uneducated consumer
from his/her money. But that doesn't keep them
from being very popular topics on websites and
Internet forums. Nearly all sources will yield
some story about having "recovered" a trashed
battery.
But to date, I've see NO data that compares
the recovered battery with performance of the
new battery in terms of energy stored. Given
that batteries in our airplanes are picked,
maintained and replaced to achieve certain energy
storage design goals, the idea of stroking an
abused or otherwise poor performing battery
with the idea that I'm going to fly it some more
. . . . well, you get the picture.
Now, if this is a battery for your bass boat
or riding lawn mower, feel free to experiment
to your own satisfaction . . . and do let
us know what, if anything, you discover.
Bob . . . [quote][b]
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skywagon
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 184
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:13 am Post subject: De-sulfating Question |
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I am of the mind that when a acid chemical battery de-sulfates, its lead plate compound changes chemistry, and sloughs off to the cell floor. Once in this condition or state, it is non-reversible.
The only way that I know to maintain a wet chemical acid battery for it's longest life is to never let it get to the "state" where the lead plates essentially decompose; sulfates.
Thus, the need to keep it charged always above a certain level.
Mostly in the dark past, we attach trickle charges and the like to the battery and then walk away from it and forget to time the charging period. Thus, it over-charges soon and that causes life shorting states also.
Now, comes along the small battery charges called "Maintainers". Bob and others have spoken of these chargers many times. They are semi-smart in that they will charge like a standard trickle charger to some set voltage potential and then, stop the charge and "float" a voltage potential at some set level, usually a tad under the trickle stop point. And, there they will happily maintain that float voltage on the battery forever. Assuming that no cell in the battery is corrupted, this method probably will give you max life from a battery.
Personally, after every flight, I connect a maintainer to the battery and it stays there until the next flight. My Gill and Concord batteries seem to last forever.....
....2 cents of comment...
Dave
[quote] ---
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klehman(at)albedo.net
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:26 pm Post subject: De-sulfating Question |
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From my experience a desulfater might help a bit on old flooded cell
tractor and generator batteries if used occasionally. However even a
small desulfater seems to cause my AGM batteries to vent. I can actually
hear the valve puff out gas every few minutes.
Ken
On 8/8/2011 11:32 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
| Quote: | >
> Are you familiar with some of the companies touting their battery
> de-sulfaters? Is this process a hoax, or what is the story behind
> these things? I don’t find any questions or answers in the archives,
> but this enquiring mind wants to know.
My earlier reply to this was somewhat hurried . . . I think
I was on my way out the door.
The art, science and alchemy of battery restoration
is as old as the battery itself. I recall seeing ads
in the back of Popular Mechanics when I was a kid
advertising various pills, potions and notions that
would "make your battery last 10x longer" or "bring
new life to a dead battery."
When somebody asked why folks who know more about
batteries than anybody (the manufacturers) didn't
offer such products, the standard saw was, "Well . . .
those guys just want to sell more batteries . . . so
they design-in a certain service life. It just would
not do to have an off-the-shelf battery routinely deliver
10 years of service. That would put them out of the battery
business."
Of course, hundreds of honorable suppliers of goods
and services put that myth to rest by being the very
best at what they knew how to do with every intention
of capturing the majority of market share. It
doesn't compute that a super-whippy manufacturer of
batteries doesn't go for the gold.
Which brings up another thought: If you do have
the ultimate success in any process or product,
then to protect your $millions$ in profits, you
spend some portion of those $millions$ to patent
and then hire lawyers to defend those patents.
So, upon getting the first whiff of the odor
of snake oil one of the first places to go look
is at freepatentsoline.com or some similar
service. I've found several devices of one flavor
or another which propose to recover a dead battery,
make good batteries last longer, etc. Of course,
being awarded a patent only says your idea is
different from all others similarly recorded
in the patent office . . . in no way is it an
endorsement of the idea's functionality.
As best I can determine, de-sulfaters are the
latest pass at parting the uneducated consumer
from his/her money. But that doesn't keep them
from being very popular topics on websites and
Internet forums. Nearly all sources will yield
some story about having "recovered" a trashed
battery.
But to date, I've see NO data that compares
the recovered battery with performance of the
new battery in terms of energy stored. Given
that batteries in our airplanes are picked,
maintained and replaced to achieve certain energy
storage design goals, the idea of stroking an
abused or otherwise poor performing battery
with the idea that I'm going to fly it some more
. . . . well, you get the picture.
Now, if this is a battery for your bass boat
or riding lawn mower, feel free to experiment
to your own satisfaction . . . and do let
us know what, if anything, you discover.
Bob . . .
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:58 pm Post subject: De-sulfating Question |
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At 12:07 PM 8/8/2011, you wrote:
I am of the mind that when a acid chemical battery de-sulfates, its
lead plate compound changes chemistry, and sloughs off to the cell
floor. Once in this condition or state, it is non-reversible.
The only way that I know to maintain a wet chemical acid battery for
it's longest life is to never let it get to the "state" where the
lead plates essentially decompose; sulfates. Thus, the need to keep
it charged always above a certain level.
Another claim made by some battery rejuvenation processes
is based on idea that large crystals of sulfate (low
surface area) can be broken up by hitting the crystals
with pulses of RF energy (in the 5 MHz range as I recall).
Mostly in the dark past, we attach trickle charges and the like to
the battery and then walk away from it and forget to time the
charging period. Thus, it over-charges soon and that causes life
shorting states also.
That worked with some success on wet batteries
where water lost to disassociation can be replaced.
Now, comes along the small battery charges called "Maintainers". Bob
and others have spoken of these chargers many times. They are
semi-smart in that they will charge like a standard trickle charger
to some set voltage potential and then, stop the charge and "float" a
voltage potential at some set level, usually a tad under the trickle
stop point. And, there they will happily maintain that float voltage
on the battery forever. Assuming that no cell in the battery is
corrupted, this method probably will give you max life from a battery.
While I was still full time at HBC, I had an array
of SVLA batteries that I used for sundry instrumentation
tasks. 2Ah up to 32 Ah devices. ALL were happily maintained
in parallel on one maintainer. My 32 Ah beast still tested
at over 25 Ah for a 5A load when I scrapped it. It was
over ten years old.
Personally, after every flight, I connect a maintainer to the battery
and it stays there until the next flight. My Gill and Concord
batteries seem to last forever.....
...2 cents of comment...
More than 2 cents . . . a report on a recipe for
success.
Another demonstrated recipe for success is the dead-battery
recovery (conditioning charge) that Concorde calls out
in their manuals. Do a constant current charge at 1/10C
and continue to charge until the battery has been above
15.5 (or 31.0) volts for 4 hours. This is an obvious
'overcharge' condition that may recover a battery to minimum
capacity for service . . . but shorten the overall life
of the battery. But then, without the conditioning charge
the battery is scrap anyhow.
Bob . . .
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:05 pm Post subject: De-sulfating Question |
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At 07:19 PM 8/8/2011, you wrote:
| Quote: |
From my experience a desulfater might help a bit on old flooded
cell tractor and generator batteries if used occasionally. However
even a small desulfater seems to cause my AGM batteries to vent. I
can actually hear the valve puff out gas every few minutes.
|
Wow . . . if it's driving water off, that's a high
energy process. I've not encountered any devices claiming
to de-sulfate a battery that were anything close to
those energy levels.
Bob . . .
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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