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Navaid servo, full left aileron

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zwakie

Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:56 am Post subject: Navaid servo, full left aileron

Hi list,



Today I have replaced my Navaid controlhead with a new Trio EZ Pilot controlhead. All works fine, my Skyforce IIIC is providing all required GPS information perfectly.



I do however have one issue: when engaging the servo, the servo immediately gives me full left aileron. This exact same thing happened with the Navaid controlhead. As far as I can tell at this point one of the following could be wrong:



A) my Navaid servo is not functioning properly; Trio has offered to look at the servo after I ship it to them (excellent service from Jerry BTW by offering this service!), I'm at tis point not ready to take that route...

B) the PWM wire running from the controlhead to the servo has broke



My guess is that scenario B) is what is wrong, because this full aileron issue started after someone has done some work behind the panel. 



My question to the list: would a broken PWN wire indeed result in a full aileron deflection?



Any input is highly appreciated!



Marcel

_________________
Marcel Zwakenberg
Europa XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR

zwakie

Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:37 pm Post subject: Re: Navaid servo, full left aileron

From thorouhgly reading the manuals I found another possible cause: the server zero position sitting outside the zone of travel.



This however raises another question: from a safety point of view I would not expect the design to allow this zero point to change or shift once it has been set. Given the gear-type of design I would not find this likely either.



Therfore another question to the list: Did anybody ever experience the zero point to shift or suddenly change?

_________________
Marcel Zwakenberg
Europa XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:19 am Post subject: Navaid servo, full left aileron

Hi Marcel



I have a bit similar failure. I have a combination 

Trio EZ Pilot & Garmin 296. When engaging the 

servo to follow the route, it goes to route but 30 

degrees to the left.

I noticed if I first switch off the EZ, then 

confirm the route again and finally switch on the 

EZ, it goes perfectly and follows the specific 

route  to the final destination.

I contacted Jerry and he told there is a known 

software bug (I purchased my EZ 2009).

He kindly asked me to send it to them for a new 

software installation but so far I have refused 

because I do not want to open my panel for that 

minor reason - I can live (fly) with it.





Cheers, Raimo Toivio





Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417



Updated flight hours: 242,0



37500 Lempaala

FINLAND



p +358-3-3753 777

f +358-3-3753 100



toivio(at)fly.to

www.rwm.fi

-----Alkuperäinen viesti----- 

From: zwakie

Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 9:56 PM

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Navaid servo, full left 

aileron




<mz(at)cariama.nl>



Hi list,



Today I have replaced my Navaid controlhead with a 

new Trio EZ Pilot controlhead. All works fine, my 

Skyforce IIIC is providing all informatn 

perfectly.



I do however have one issue: when engaging the 

servo, the servo immediately gives me full left 

aileron. This exact same thing happened with the 

Navaid controlhead, so as far as I can tell one of 

the following coild be wrong:



A) my Navaid servo is not properly functioning; 

Trio has offered to look at the servo after I ship 

itto them (excellent service from Jerry!)

B) the PWM wire running from the controlhead to 

the servo has broke



My guess is that scenario B) is what is wrong, 

because this full aileron issue started after 

someone has done some work behind the panel.



My question to the list: would a broken PWN wire 

indeed result in a full aileron deflection?



Any input is highly appreciated!



Marcel



--------

Marcel

(Classic Tri-Gear PH-MZW - formerly G-BWON)





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frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:24 am Post subject: Navaid servo, full left aileron

On 08/15/2011 08:56 PM, zwakie wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I do however have one issue: when engaging the servo, the servo

 immediately gives me full left aileron. This exact same thing

 happened with the Navaid controlhead


	


You forgot to mention whether this occured during flight or at the ground.

At the ground this is easy to occur, the autopilot tries to level the

plane (to what it *thinks* is level) or correct the assumed "heading",

the airplane doesn't responsd, so the autopilot corrects a bit more,

still no response, so it commands an even more aggressive aileron

deflection, etc. This is what you want it to do when turbulence or

whatever requires more aileron deflection to correct the situation. But

on the ground it just looks as if the autopilot commands full aileron

just out of the blue, but this is only because the aircraft behaves very

unresponsive, to say the least. I have seen this behaviour on the ground

too, but in flight it works perfectly.



If this is the case, you should be able to offset the center position in

the autopilot menu (without a GPS connected of course!)



If this happens in flight (or on the ground it looks like it is really

stuck without GPS input and regardless of center settings) I would

suspect the servo is broken.



Without valid PWM input the servo should not engage at all.



I assume that you have carefully inspected the physical rigging and made

sure the servo and autopilot absolutely agree about what is left and

what is right. You might want to configure the autopilot to "reverse" to

check what happens. Full aileron deflection is what you get if the

autopilot tries to correct something but the servo corrects into the

wrong direction. If you missed this step, this fully explains the odd

behaviour of your setup.



 	  Quote: 	
		   A) my Navaid servo is not properly functioning; Trio has offered to

 look at the servo after I ship itto them (excellent service from

 Jerry!) B) the PWM wire running from the controlhead to the servo has

 broke


	


If you take out the servo anyway, I would connect it to the autopilot

module on the bench and see what happens. You can even tilt the

autopilot and see how the servo responses. No need to send it to Jerry.



 	  Quote: 	
		   My question to the list: would a broken PWN wire indeed result in a

 full aileron deflection?


	


I'm not sure about the navaid servo, but the trio-servo disengages

immediately if it detects something wrong. If the navaid simply gives

full aileron deflection when one wire breaks, I wouldn't even want to

fly with it. I must assume that it disengages too if the PWM signal is

entirely missing.



Frans

g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:57 am Post subject: Navaid servo, full left aileron

My experience, while developing and testing the Autopilot mods (75 & 76) for

Europa, was mostly with the TruTrak digital servos.  They and all the others

I have seen, behave as Franz describes.  This is fully covered in the

manuals.



So check out the mode the system is operating in.  It may be doing exactly

what it is supposed to do.

Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours

Europa Club Mods Specialist

e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com

zwakie

Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:40 am Post subject: Re: Navaid servo, full left aileron

Thank you all for the good suggestions.



The behavior occurs on ground, both with and without GPS connected and in TRK and CRS mode. I observe the exact same behavior that the old setup (with the navaid head) showed after I had an official shop install my Mode-S transponder. Before that work was done, I never saw the servo giving full aileron deflection, this is why my mind was locked into suspecting the wiring. I did not and even consider the possibility that it might be OK after completing the setups as Frans suggests.



Thank you Frans for your clear and elaborate explanations. I will drive to the airport tomorrow morning and follow up your suggestions (alongside the part of the manual describing setup of course  ), and see what that brings...

_________________
Marcel Zwakenberg
Europa XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR

mau11(at)free.fr
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 7:17 am Post subject: Navaid servo, full left aileron

Hello Marcel,

 I have the same thing when I install trio EZ with my navaid servo.

  

 There is two positions of the servo course mine immediately after  installation is on "NORMAL" position, I change and use REVERSE position  after all is ok.

   [quote][b]

zwakie

Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:46 am Post subject: Re: Navaid servo, full left aileron

Well, it strongly seems that my servo gone broke. After following Frans' suggestions and the instructions in the EZ Pilot manual, checking the complete install, I'm still getting full left aileron. FWIW: continuity of the wiring is OK, so my initial suspicion of a broken PWM wire was wrong.



To confirm this, I would like to get my hands on a known good Navaid servo and hook that up in my installation.



Does anyone have a good working servo lying around, collecting dust, that I can use for this? If that servo works out OK, I am of course willing to buy it for a reasonable price.



If I can't get my hands on a Navaid servo, I will bite the bullet and get a new one from Trio.

_________________
Marcel Zwakenberg
Europa XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR

zwakie

Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:41 am Post subject: Re: Navaid servo, full left aileron

I have given it some good thought and decided there is no point trying to stick with a type of servo from the Ice-age for which no real support exists. 



I have decided that I will order a new servo from Trio, as you all probably know these servos have more advanced safety features compared to the Navaid servo, and the Trio company provides excellent customer-service. These to me were the prime reasons for my decision, the fact that people are asking big money for used Navaid servos that come without any warranty also made my call a little easier...



Thanks to all for your highly valued input both on list as direct email. This once again showed me the power of the wonderful Europa community!

_________________
Marcel Zwakenberg
Europa XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR

zwakie

Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: Navaid servo, full left aileron

I would like to compliment Sid and Jerry from Trio with their outstanding service and support. This morning I received the Trio Golden servo with 3 modifications that allow a one-on-one replacement of my existing Navaid servo.



Tonight it took me under 2 hours to uninstall the Navaid seervo, install the Trio servo, do initial setups and run full installation checks (including all checks listed in Europa Mod 75). Most importantly, so far everything works as advertised...



Weather permitting, I will do the in-flight adjustments this Saturday.

_________________
Marcel Zwakenberg
Europa XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR

zwakie

Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: Navaid servo, full left aileron

Update:



Today I made a 1:45H flight for doing the in-flight adjustments for the EZ Pilot II.



Conclusion is fairly straightforward: once I found the sweet spot for servo neutral (which took me about 5 minutes), I did not have to make any adjustments to CRS and TRK tracking or PULL-IN settings. 



Maximum deviation observed in CRS mode was 1 degree. In TRK-mode it was 0.02NM maximum (most of the flight 0.00-0.01NM) .



I also tested manual clutch override and simulated CRS deviations with subsequent INT. No surprises there, all worked as advertised... 



One feature remains to be tested: emergency 175 degree turn. Given todays observations I trust that to be worknig by the book as well...

_________________
Marcel Zwakenberg
Europa XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR

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