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Ryton sumps
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bkbrown(at)ashcreekwirele
Guest

Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 6:35 am Post subject: Ryton sumps

Yesterday, I joined the ranks of people who have broken their ryton =

sumps during startup.  3 out of 4 ryton sumps on the field have now =

broken at least once.  I am not comfortable with that record, so am now =

looking at alternatives for replacement.



Does anyone have feedback on what options are out there for a forward =

facing sump?



Bob Brown

RV7A

last few things...oh, and a NEW INDUCTION SYSTEM!



do not archive

Gary.A.Sobek

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 217
Location: SoCAL USA

Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:08 pm Post subject: Ryton sumps

There are several out there.



ECI makes a metal one that I saw at Oshkosh and it was several pounds ligher 

than the one Lycoming sells.



This is ECI's experimental one:

http://www.eci2fly.com/exp/cis_flyer.pdf

http://www.eci2fly.com/exp/cis_tds.pdf



http://www.superflite.com/products.asp?p=115&SID=17&SN=Front%20Servo%20Sump



I thought that Raven Aircraft also had a 4 cylinder parallel valve version 

but cannot find it anymore.  Only the 540 version.  

http://www.ravenaircraft.com/raven_012.htm



http://www.skydynamics.com/maxisump.html



http://users.adelphia.net/~aeroengine/Barrett.html



http://www.attawayair.com/eci_fi_system.htm



http://www.performanceengines.com/images/LineCard.pdf



I remember seeing a link to another one out there but cannot find it now.



Lets put this one in the archives for next time when we go looking for cold 

air sumps.



Gary A. Sobek

"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,

1,852 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA

http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com



----Original Message Follows----

From: "Karen and Robert Brown" <bkbrown(at)ashcreekwireless.com>

Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Ryton sumps

Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 06:38:12 -0700




<bkbrown(at)ashcreekwireless.com>



Yesterday, I joined the ranks of people who have broken their ryton =

sumps during startup.  3 out of 4 ryton sumps on the field have now =

broken at least once.  I am not comfortable with that record, so am now =

looking at alternatives for replacement.



Does anyone have feedback on what options are out there for a forward =

facing sump?



Bob Brown

RV7A

last few things...oh, and a NEW INDUCTION SYSTEM!

DOUGPFLYRV(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject: Ryton sumps

We also had a broken sump on the Superior XP-360. I don't even know if it  is 

a Ryton. It has been replaced but I am very leery of it now. Seems we were  

running a bit lean at low power.

It back fired on start up. Our servo was a repaired unit so we got a new  one 

but not sure it is any different. Please give me some input if u are running  

the same engine.

1. What is the fuel flow at take off power....we show 16.3 GPH.

2. What are the EGT's at some altitude at full rich.

3. What are the EGT's at that altitude after leaning on the rich side

 

Appreciate any and all info on this engine. We are not confident that  things 

are as they should be and concerned with causing damage.

 

Thanks,

Doug Preston

RV-7A  N196VA

bkbrown(at)ashcreekwirele
Guest

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 7:24 am Post subject: Ryton sumps

Doug,

If your sump is forward facing and it was made by Superior, it's a Ryton =

(composite) sump.  If it's metal, it's not Ryton.



Mine broke during a test of the engine.  Since the plane has not flown =

yet, I can't give you the fuel flow info you requested.  You are =

expressing the same reservations I have on the Ryton sump.  When =

everyone else breaks a sump, you wonder what they did wrong.  When it =

happens to you after you've tried to do everything right, you realize =

what a fragile link to the chain that sump is.  I don't think I could be =

comfortable flying behind one until there is a re-design out there.  For =

the life of me, I don't know why that hasn't been accomplished yet.  =

It's not like Superior doesn't know they have a problem with these =

things.



What type of ignitions are you running?  If you are running electronic =

ignitions, you need to read and understand the SB posted on Superior's =

website regarding the wasted spark ignitions (Lightspeed, Jeff Rose, P/E =

Mags) and Ryton sumps.



bob

rv7a - last few things



do not archive

Jerry Cochran

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Wilsonville, OR

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 8:10 am Post subject: Ryton sumps

Guys,

 

Please post your messages concerning these sumps also on 

_http://groups.yahoo.com/group/XP-360Forum/_ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/XP-360Forum/)  .  I am 

sure the guys at Superior check that one so important they know what the  

sentiment is out here. Last time I talked to them about these failures, they  

assured me "It's never happened in flight." Cold comfort. They also said they're  

working on a replacement, but not free to present owners unless you "have a  

problem". These folks need to step up, communicate with their customers, and  

schedule free replacements when available. Mine is still in the garage, but  

90/90, so I hope they get off their duff. My .10.

 

Jerry Cochran

Wilsonville, OR

 

 

In a message dated 5/16/2006 12:06:17 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  

rv-list(at)matronics.com writes:



Time:  06:22:24 PM PST US

From: DOUGPFLYRV(at)aol.com

Subject: Re: Ryton  sumps






We  also had a broken sump on the Superior XP-360. I don't even know if it   

is 

a Ryton. It has been replaced but I am very leery of it now. Seems we  were  

running a bit lean at low power.

It back fired on start up.  Our servo was a repaired unit so we got a new  

one 

but not sure it is  any different. Please give me some input if u are running 

 

the same  engine.

1. What is the fuel flow at take off power....we show 16.3  GPH.

2. What are the EGT's at some altitude at full rich.

3. What are  the EGT's at that altitude after leaning on the rich side



Appreciate  any and all info on this engine. We are not confident that  

things  

are as they should be and concerned with causing  damage.



Thanks,

Doug Preston

RV-7A   N196VA

Jerry Cochran

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Wilsonville, OR

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 8:13 am Post subject: Ryton sumps

Bob and Doug,

 

Superior has told me these incidents have only happened with electronic  

ignitions. Is that what you guys have? Something about the "wasted spark"...  Even 

though I have mags, still makes me nervous as hell... 

 

Jerry Cochran

Wilsonville, OR

 

 

In a message dated 5/16/2006 12:06:17 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  

rv-list(at)matronics.com writes:



----Original Message Follows----

From: "Karen and Robert Brown"  <bkbrown(at)ashcreekwireless.com>

Subject: Ryton  sumps




<bkbrown(at)ashcreekwireless.com>



Yesterday, I joined the ranks  of people who have broken their ryton =

sumps during startup.  3 out  of 4 ryton sumps on the field have now =

broken at least once.  I am  not comfortable with that record, so am now =

looking at alternatives for  replacement.



Does anyone have feedback on what options are out there  for a forward =

facing sump?



Bob Brown

RV7A

last few  things...oh, and a NEW INDUCTION SYSTEM!

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 12:27 pm Post subject: Ryton sumps

That doesn't make sense to me at all.  Why would a spark (at any time) 

cause a failure of the oil sump????  I'd love to see the data on that one!!!

Linn



do not archive

Jerry2DT(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



 

Bob and Doug,

 

Superior has told me these incidents have only happened with electronic  

ignitions. Is that what you guys have? Something about the "wasted spark"...  Even 

though I have mags, still makes me nervous as hell... 

 

Jerry Cochran

Wilsonville, OR

 

 

In a message dated 5/16/2006 12:06:17 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  

rv-list(at)matronics.com writes:



----Original Message Follows----

From: "Karen and Robert Brown"  <bkbrown(at)ashcreekwireless.com>

Subject: Ryton  sumps




<bkbrown(at)ashcreekwireless.com>



Yesterday, I joined the ranks  of people who have broken their ryton =

sumps during startup.  3 out  of 4 ryton sumps on the field have now =

broken at least once.  I am  not comfortable with that record, so am now =

looking at alternatives for  replacement.



Does anyone have feedback on what options are out there  for a forward =

facing sump?



Bob Brown

RV7A

last few  things...oh, and a NEW INDUCTION SYSTEM!

DOUGPFLYRV(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 12:43 pm Post subject: Ryton sumps

Bob, we do have the Ryton composite sump. Superior tells us that ours was #  

11 to break. We are running slick mags. Very frustrating. They do not have an  

aluminum sump. If this happens in flight it will be bad news......litigation 

to  follow. They need to get on the stick. We have 12 hours on the 7A so far.

Good luck.

Doug

 

DO NOT ARCHIVE.

truflite(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 3:17 pm Post subject: Ryton sumps

What happens in the wasted spark ignition is that

there are two sparks to a complete cycle.  The first

is at the top of the compression stroke.  The second

is at the top of the exhaust stroke and the opening of

the intake valve.  If the spark hits  the fuel/air

mixture at this point, a back fire occurs towards the

carb or throttlebody and the ryton sump cannot contain

the explosive condition, therefore, it disintegrates.



Dave



--- linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>

 

 That doesn't make sense to me at all.  Why would a

 spark (at any time) 

 cause a failure of the oil sump????  I'd love to see

 the data on that one!!!

 Linn

 

 do not archive

 Jerry2DT(at)aol.com wrote:

 

 >

 >

 > 

 >Bob and Doug,

 > 

 >Superior has told me these incidents have only

 happened with electronic  

 >ignitions. Is that what you guys have? Something

 about the "wasted spark"...  Even 

 >though I have mags, still makes me nervous as

 hell... 

 > 

 >Jerry Cochran

 >Wilsonville, OR

 > 

 > 

 >In a message dated 5/16/2006 12:06:17 A.M. Pacific

 Daylight Time,  

 >rv-list(at)matronics.com writes:

 >

 >----Original Message Follows----

 >From: "Karen and Robert Brown" 

 <bkbrown(at)ashcreekwireless.com>

 >Subject: Ryton  sumps

 >

 >

 Brown"  

 ><bkbrown(at)ashcreekwireless.com>

 >

 >Yesterday, I joined the ranks  of people who have

 broken their ryton =

 >sumps during startup.  3 out  of 4 ryton sumps on

 the field have now =

 >broken at least once.  I am  not comfortable with

 that record, so am now =

 >looking at alternatives for  replacement.

 >

 >Does anyone have feedback on what options are out

 there  for a forward =

 >facing sump?

 >

 >Bob Brown

 >RV7A

 >last few  things...oh, and a NEW INDUCTION SYSTEM!

 >

 >

 > 

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > 

 > 

 > 

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >  

 >

 

 

 

 

 

 



 browse

 Subscriptions page,

 FAQ,

 Admin.



 

 

 

  

  

  

 

 

 

 


	




__________________________________________________

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject: Ryton sumps

I don't believe this.  How much ignitable fuel/air mixture can be there?

Plus the exhaust valve is likely open.



And it does not explain Doug's case were he has two mags.



Ron Lee

 	  Quote: 	
		  What happens in the wasted spark ignition is that

there are two sparks to a complete cycle.  The first

is at the top of the compression stroke.  The second

is at the top of the exhaust stroke and the opening of

the intake valve.  If the spark hits  the fuel/air

mixture at this point, a back fire occurs towards the

carb or throttlebody and the ryton sump cannot contain

the explosive condition, therefore, it disintegrates.



Dave

lifeofreiley2003(at)yahoo
Guest

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:36 pm Post subject: Ryton sumps

In any case, I personally do not like the idea of a poly/plastic media containing my engines blood (oil). These engines are expensive! When I first saw the Ryton sump it looked like a problem just waiting to happen. Just my .02 cents...

   

  Darrell



Ron Lee <ronlee(at)pcisys.net> wrote:

  



I don't believe this. How much ignitable fuel/air mixture can be there?

Plus the exhaust valve is likely open.



And it does not explain Doug's case were he has two mags.



Ron Lee

 	  Quote: 	
		  What happens in the wasted spark ignition is that

there are two sparks to a complete cycle. The first

is at the top of the compression stroke. The second

is at the top of the exhaust stroke and the opening of

the intake valve. If the spark hits the fuel/air

mixture at this point, a back fire occurs towards the

carb or throttlebody and the ryton sump cannot contain

the explosive condition, therefore, it disintegrates.



Dave


	






		

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mannanj(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:49 pm Post subject: Ryton Sumps

"I don't believe this"



Ron:



Here's my two cents.



The forward facing sump means that the engine is fuel injected.  This =

condition happens when the boost pump is left on too long with the =

mixture in the rich, or other than idle cut off position.  Raw fuel is =

sent thru the injector nozzles into the intake area ahead of the valve =

and drains down the intake tubes into the air plenun below the oil sump.



What happens next is that the electronic spark system which fires on two =

of the four strokes of the combustion cycle,

(unlike conventional ignition systems which fires only one time in the =

four cycle circuit), fires when there is an open path to the plenum, =

intake valve slightly open.  If conditions are right, a flame front =

travels down the intake tube into the plenum igniting an explosion.



It doesn't take much.  I have seen a demonstration put on by the local =

firefighters where one drop of gasoline created an ear-spliting bang.



You've seen, or at least heard of backfires on engine starts  with =

regular mags too, i'm sure.  Pretty much the same thing happening there =

too.



Probably not likely to happen in flight, but you couldn't give me one of =

those things.



Mannan Thomason

RV-8  N161RL  (No. One Girl)

Almost flying



Do Not Archive

gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:17 am Post subject: Ryton sumps

Didn't Superior just sell the company off to a German company.

   

  My experience in the past when a company has a massive design problem with their product line, they end up selling it off to another company, who of course does not support the old line. Both times in the past it was with electronic items not engine parts. Is that an effort to avoid liability? I wounder it the German company knew about this before they bought it?

   

  Not saying this is Superior's reason for the buy out, but I see this time and time again, a company sell off ownership preceded by some massive design or QC screw up of a product or line of products.

   

  I guess there is something to be said for certified parts that have stood the test of time.

   

  George RV-7



 __________________________________________________

Rhonda(at)bpaengines.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:39 am Post subject: Ryton sumps

Our Cold air system is available only on the IO-540.  We designed and

build them as an experimental replacement for the Lycoming certified

cold air sump (which costs approx. $8500) for any model parallel or

angle head IO/AEIO-540.  



We do not have a cold air sump for the 360 engines.  We tested some many

years ago and found that there was no performance enhancement, so we

decided not to pursue.



The IO-540 Cold Air System sells for $3995 as a stand alone unit, $3495

with an engine purchase.



Rhonda Barrett-Bewley

Barrett Precision Engines, Inc.

2870-B N. Sheridan Rd.

Tulsa, OK  74115

(918) 835-1089 phone

(918) 835-1754 fax

www.barrettprecisionengines.com 



Here's the deal:

    If you want a "cold air sump", there seems to be 3 choices-

        Ryton sump by Superior

        Magnesium sump by ECI

        Barrett Precision cold air sump

      



All the other metal sumps out there-

    Aerosport Power

    Aero Engines

    Superflite

Are all copies of the Lycoming cast aluminum sump (not cold air sumps)



I don't have the information on the Barrett Cold Sump system, but it is

=

the most expensive of the three.  I'll post that here when I find it.

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 8:43 am Post subject: Ryton sumps

Just as an FYI, I know many vendors don't like to come off as pushing =

their products on the lists so I thought I would forward this.....

Michael Sausen

RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage



--

bkbrown(at)ashcreekwirele
Guest

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: Ryton sumps

we do have the Ryton composite sump. Superior tells us that ours was # 

      11 to break. We are running slick mags.



This is huge news.



Up to now everyone has been repeating the mantra that the problems with =

the Superior ryton sump have only occurred while coupled with electronic =

ignitions utilizing wasted spark technology.  If one has failed with =

mags, then I would think all those people running Lasar ignitions are =

now also under the same shadow of risk.  Doug, do you have additional =

details like when/how the failure occurred?  A photo posted somewhere =

would be most enlightening.



For those of us in the same situation, I believe we should all write to =

Tim Archer, president of Superior, as well as Frank Thielert, who just =

bought Superior, and express our concerns for a rapid solution to this =

issue.  They should pull the sumps off the market now and inform all =

owners of the possibility of failure and the need to inspect the =

induction system at the end of each flight.  At the same time they need =

to recognize the need/market for a reliable, lightweight cold air =

induction system.  Come on guys, this isn't rocket science.



Since I have totally lost confidence in the Ryton sump (as it's =

currently manufactured), the solution I have been forced into is to try =

(and I mean try...since there are none currently available anywhere) and =

purchase an aftermarket cast aluminum forward facing sump.  I am told =

the shortest lead time is several weeks, with no firm delivery date.  At =

the time I receive it, I'll then have to completely re-do the fiberglass =

snorkel, the fuel lines and linkages to compensate for the different =

geometry of the two sumps.  Superior is apparently willing to cover =

$1000 for reimbursement of my old sump.  The new one will cost about =

$2200, so besides the lost 100 hours or so of labor, I'll be out an =

additional $1500 dollars or so.



bob brown

rv7a

last few things, and a new induction system.

recapen(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:49 am Post subject: Ryton sumps

A few letters to them might help....



A few other letters might help also......EAA, AOPA, FAA



--

bkbrown(at)ashcreekwirele
Guest

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 10:44 am Post subject: Ryton sumps

I am posting this letter I received from Bill Wallace, multiple RV =

builder and EAA Tech Counselor:



Doug;

My neighbor, Bob Brown forwarded your message to me this morning...  =

Sorry to hear the bad news.

I also have a ryton sump in my RV8A along with LASAR Ignition, so far, =

(80) hours), I have not had any problems.  However, with your revelation =

my confidence level has diminished substantially and I would like to ask =

you for some specific detail of your sump failure.  For example, was it =

on a "hot Start", did it blow out a chunk or crack, did you actually =

hear it blow, or any additional detail you may think pertinent.

I have a hard time buying that there have been "only" 11 sump failures, =

we have had four failures out of a population of four ryton sump =

Superior engines here at the Independence Airpark alone!   Denny =

Jackson's RV8 has two failures, (aft/lower air sump blow-outs) with a =

dual Jeff Rose electronic ignition system, on "hot " starts;  Ron =

Russell had a failure (Light speed ignition), that made his engine run =

"a little' rough at idle, he subsequently flew home and upon landing =

could hardly keep it running long enough to get to his hangar.  His sump =

had jagged fore to aft opening along the entire bottom of his air sump.  =

Unfortunately, Ron Russell is no longer with us, so further detail is =

not available.  Bob Brown's sump cracked at the mating line of the air =

sump and oil sump without any audible backfire, (on a second engine test =

run).



This is our local history at this time.  I am fully supportive of any =

methods we could legally come up with to get Superior's attention and =

quick resolution to this faulty ryton sump problem.



Regards,

Bill Wallace

EAA Technical Counselor

bswal(at)msn.com



do not archive

DOUGPFLYRV(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 11:01 am Post subject: Ryton sumps

My partner (A&P) was starting the engine and it backfired and blew the  

bottom out of the induction plenum. He called Superior and they told him it was  

the 11th, but all the others were with electronic ignition. Supposed to be about 

 200 engines on service. Probably not likely to happen in flight but I don't 

feel  good about it.

Doug

BPA(at)bpaengines.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 11:36 am Post subject: Ryton sumps

Regardless of what type of ignition source you have, or, which sump you

have be it a Ryton, ECI, Lycoming, or Happy Joes from Kokamoe, if the

electric boost pump is used to prime the engine, you are getting fuel in

the intake plenum, plane (only spelling I know :)and simple! That is the

reason for the drain (sniffle valve). It is important that the sniffle

valve be located in the LOWEST spot on the induction part of the system,

with the plane at it's natural resting attitude. You have to realize

that if the pump is turned on say for 5 seconds, you have to wait until

you are confident that any excess fuel in the plenum has drained before

you crank the engine. This is in my opinion the cause of the Ryton

issue. 



Allen Barrett

BPE, Inc 

--

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