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Toe vs Finger Brakes

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flyingphil2

Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Posts: 117

Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:27 am Post subject: Toe vs Finger Brakes

I've not used either on a Europa.



Anyone got any opinions on which is better / worse and why?

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:09 am Post subject: Toe vs Finger Brakes

Hi Phil



I have flown one with toe brakes and I could not get my feet on the brakes

and rudder at the same time.  It was all too tight for space in the

footwell.



Pete 



--

peter.rees01(at)tiscali.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:41 am Post subject: Toe vs Finger Brakes

In contrast to the experience below - we have been using the finger 

brakes for about 5 years or so - very easy to get to grips with and 

never any issues with getting to them when needed as they are right by 

the throttle.



Peter



----Original Message----



From: pete(at)lawless.info



Date: 10/10/2011 14:06 



To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>



Subj: RE: Toe vs Finger Brakes






Hi Phil



I have flown one with toe brakes and I could not get my feet on the 

brakes



and rudder at the same time.  It was all too tight for space in the



footwell.



Pete

max8992

Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 142

Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:24 am Post subject: Toe vs Finger Brakes

The builder of our XS moved the toe brakes "unusables by standard feet" to hand brakes before he sold me the plane. Using it for one year+, very easy and efficient.



Max  Cointe

F-PMLH Kit #560

912ULS Airmaster

390+ hours



-----Message d'origine-----

De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de peter.rees01(at)tiscali.co.uk

EnvoyÃ© : lundi 10 octobre 2011 15:38

Ã€ : europa-list(at)matronics.com

Objet : RE: Toe vs Finger Brakes






In contrast to the experience below - we have been using the finger 

brakes for about 5 years or so - very easy to get to grips with and 

never any issues with getting to them when needed as they are right by 

the throttle.



Peter



----Original Message----



From: pete(at)lawless.info



Date: 10/10/2011 14:06 



To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>



Subj: RE: Toe vs Finger Brakes






Hi Phil



I have flown one with toe brakes and I could not get my feet on the 

brakes



and rudder at the same time.  It was all too tight for space in the



footwell.



Pete

_________________
Max8992
Europa XS #560 F-PMLH

flyingphil2

Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Posts: 117

Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Toe vs Finger Brakes

Thanks for the replies - very conclusive.

Finger brakes it is then.



Phil

europapa

Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 63

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:39 am Post subject: Re: Toe vs Finger Brakes

So, I am not so pleased with my finger brakes.

But I am not sure that I have the right braking cylinders.

My classic is a trigear conversion. I have seen in the builders manual there 

are two types of cylinders used. Both have got an external brake fluid reservoir. My cylinders haven't got one. The right cylinder begins braking much earlier but I'm getting used to it. Even the brakes are very weak.

Maybe I should bleed them but have got no idea what kind of brake fluid the builders used.

I jealously looked at the breaking cylinders of an race kart, they seemed to have the same size.

Any suggestions?



Regards Juergen

max8992

Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 142

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:50 pm Post subject: Toe vs Finger Brakes

Hi Jurgen,



We probably have the same configuration: our cylinders are the toe's one

moved up and arranged to be used by fingers (by the previous owner and

builder). They are the Matco ones described in the chapter CBM 33T of the

manual. The discrepancy between both are probably due to a lack of liquid in

one circuit. You must use MilH5606 liquid (the best way to get it is from a

JAR 145 maintenance workshop) to refuel but before you should verify first

that it is what you have into (the color red/pink is significant I think).

We've done that, not an easy task but we have now quite efficient breaking

equilibrated on both wheels. 

To do it : remove the stopper of the cylinder visible on fig 1 of the CBM

33T of the manuals and replace it by a transparent pipe attached to a bleed

nipple and push the liquid from a syringe via the bleed nipple on the brake

caliper (visible on page 16 of the CBM 29T of the manuals). You're done when

you see the liquid run on the pipe without bubbles.



We also consider replacing the cylinders but there is a cost (in the Europa

catalog the conversion kit is 1000£+) and probably a bit a time to spend. So

far we will stay with the actual configuration.



Max  Cointe

F-PMLH TriGear Kit #560

912ULS Airmaster 400 hours



-----Message d'origine-----

De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de europapa

Envoyé : mardi 18 octobre 2011 21:39

À : europa-list(at)matronics.com

Objet : Re: Toe vs Finger Brakes






So, I am not so pleased with my finger brakes.

But I am not sure that I have the right braking cylinders.

My classic is a trigear conversion. I have seen in the builders manual there



are two types of cylinders used. Both have got an external brake fluid

reservoir. My cylinders haven't got one. The right cylinder begins braking

much earlier but I'm getting used to it. Even the brakes are very weak.

Maybe I should bleed them but have got no idea what kind of brake fluid the

builders used.

I jealously looked at the breaking cylinders of an race kart, they seemed to

have the same size.

Any suggestions?



Regards Juergen





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355453#355453

_________________
Max8992
Europa XS #560 F-PMLH

g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:32 am Post subject: Toe vs Finger Brakes

Jurgen



As far as I can tell the advise from Max is correct.



You almost certainly have a finger brake conversion which consists of moving

the original foot cylinders.  So filling is as Max describes.  This was an

early "fix" to get finger brakes and not supported by Europa.  If filled and

bleed correctly they work but early versions had short levers (not enough

leverage) so breaking was limited.  The simple solution (longer levers)

works better but puts the handles very high (and they look unsightly).



The Europa design improved the position and leverage but unfortunately the

first master cylinder (Jama) proved to be very poor quality.  The final

redesign using Matco cylinders is much better.



A large part of the cost of the Europa kit is for the moulding etc used to

mount the master cylinder.  The Matco cylinders are reasonably priced at

about $90 each from Matco (but make sure you get the correct cylinders).  If

you are prepared to make you own mount and levers then you can convert at a

reasonable cost.



The documentation of Mod 65 shows the Jama setup and has not been updated.

The main manual CBM 33T (3) does give details of the Matco setup (but it

does contain some detailed error which have yet to be corrected).



I suggest you get your existing setup working properly before you decide on

an upgrade.  If you decide to upgrade I will be happy to supply details of

what others have done and the corrections for the Matco setup.



Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours

Europa Club Mods Specialist

e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com

europapa

Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 63

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:40 am Post subject: Re: Toe vs Finger Brakes

Hello Max and Ian,



thank you so much for your support.

So much specific know how in just two replies!

Today I inspected my brake setup and found it like Max expected.

The toe brakes have been converted. That means screwed together and fixed anyhow.

First I will try to adjust the fluid quantity. and perhaps will build longer levers.

But the first problem I have to solve is getting access to the lock screws as there is no opening in the cockpit.

All in all not a big peace of engineering.

Will come back to you.



Thank you again



Juergen

Kit 161

max8992

Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 142

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:19 am Post subject: Toe vs Finger Brakes

Hi Juergen,



Our levers have been extended by almost 10cm. We don't have either access

via the cockpit, so access is almost acrobatic via underneath...

Good luck! 	



Max  Cointe

F-PMLH TriGear Kit #560

912ULS Airmaster 400 hours



-----Message d'origine-----

De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de europapa

Envoyé : jeudi 20 octobre 2011 21:40

À : europa-list(at)matronics.com

Objet : Re: Toe vs Finger Brakes






Hello Max and Ian,



thank you so much for your support.

So much specific know how in just two replies!

Today I inspected my brake setup and found it like Max expected.

The toe brakes have been converted. That means screwed together and fixed

anyhow.

First I will try to adjust the fluid quantity. and perhaps will build longer

levers.

But the first problem I have to solve is getting access to the lock screws

as there is no opening in the cockpit.

All in all not a big peace of engineering.

Will come back to you.



Thank you again



Juergen

Kit 161





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355589#355589

_________________
Max8992
Europa XS #560 F-PMLH

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