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Dennis Thate
Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 362
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 Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:06 am Post subject: the aft cg club... |
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My 503 Rotax Kolb Firestar II is built per plans, even at my meager 220 pounds, I have a aft CG.
What are my options to get back in the envelope ?
How is the wing cord measured on a Firestar II, does it include the aileron or just the wing ?
Thanks
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zeprep251(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:13 am Post subject: the aft cg club... |
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Includes ailerons
--
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Dennis Thate
Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 362
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:45 am Post subject: Re: the aft cg club... |
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| zeprep251(at)aol.com wrote: | Includes ailerons
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Thankyou !
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Dennis Thate
Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 362
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:20 am Post subject: Re: the aft cg club... |
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Wonder how many Kolb Firestar II pilots need ballast in the nose cone to be within proper CG's ?
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:35 am Post subject: the aft cg club... |
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Wonder how many Kolb Firestar II pilots need ballast in the nose cone to be
within proper CG's ?
Dennis T/Folks:
If any Kolb aircraft is built anywhere near plans, it will be within cg
limits. Sometimes, paper and actuality do not correspond.
In your case, at 220 lbs, I'd bet next month's retirement check you do not
have an aft cg problem.
To prove a point, I installed a 12 lb Maule Tundra Tail wheel on my MKIII.
I flies great with no aft cg tendencies. That is with 150 lbs of fuel and
100 lbs of gear behind the main bulkhead.
john h
mkIII
Mobile, Alabama
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:28 am Post subject: the aft cg club... |
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At 10:33 AM 10/24/11 -0500, you wrote:
| Quote: |
Dennis T/Folks:
If any Kolb aircraft is built anywhere near plans, it will be within cg
limits. Sometimes, paper and actuality do not correspond.
In your case, at 220 lbs, I'd bet next month's retirement check you do not
have an aft cg problem.
To prove a point, I installed a 12 lb Maule Tundra Tail wheel on my MKIII.
I flies great with no aft cg tendencies. That is with 150 lbs of fuel and
100 lbs of gear behind the main bulkhead.
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John,
How much does the main gear legs and tundra tires weigh that you moved forward?
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:46 am Post subject: the aft cg club... |
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How much does the main gear legs and tundra tires weigh that you moved
forward?
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jack H/Gang:
Main gear and 800X6 tires (not tundra tires) weigh about the same as the
tail wheel, maybe a little bit more. My main gear is very light, only 24"
long 4130 legs, total length.
I didn't have a forward cg problem before I added the heavy TW. Have flown
my MKIII with the original skinny nylon snowmobile bogie wheel, 6 lb Maule
TW (installed now), and the 12 lb TW. Took the big TW off last year when it
got to the point it needed some attention, plus thought I might get another
MPH out of it with the smaller TW. No difference in performance, other than
the solid 6" wheel is much rougher and noisier than the big 8" pneumatic
tire. Ground handled much better with the big TW.
john h
mkIII
Mobile, Alabama
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:59 am Post subject: the aft cg club... |
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Aft of what? Toledo? Let's get some real world numbers into this conversation, please. Aft CG has no meaning other than a vague notion and tossing the term around without specifics can be dangerous.If your idea of perfect weight and balance is a CG at 25% MAC then 26% is aft CG.
When I modified the Excel spreadsheet for calculating CG position for the Mk III that was posted here some time ago (my apology to its creator, I do not remember who that was) I set the CG limits at 16% and 35%. My aircraft, with just me in it, flew quite nicely at 33%. I did both departure and approach stalls with it at all flap settings and its handling and recovery were impeccable. Would the same have been true at 40%? 45%? I have no idea.
Here is an example of what can happen if the CG is too far aft. During WWII, in order to get the P-51 capable of accompanying allied bombers deep into Germany, the aircraft was fitted with an 80 gallon tank located behind the pilot. One new pilot had never flown the Mustang with the CG that far aft (about 45%, as I recall) and his squadron mates forgot to tell him that it was standard practice to drain that tank first. His first mission was uneventful and once back over the English Channel he was offered the opportunity to get in some dog fighting practice with one of the senior pilots. When he attempted a hard turn to evade the "attack" the aircraft performed a snap roll and was very difficult to recover. Back at base, his buddies knew immediately what had happened and apologized for failing to pass along the knowledge about the need to properly manage the P-51's fuel consumption. What is interesting, to me, is that the pilot found no objectionable handling qualities with the CG that far aft until he tried some hard maneuvering. He did report that he never made that mistake again, though.
Now a Kolb is not a P-51, regrettably, but the tale does illustrate the need to know just how an aircraft reacts to a particular aft CG condition in all aspects of flight it will encounter. It might be fine in straight and level cruise, but not so good when flying at Va in turbulence.
Just a thought.
Rick Girard
On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:43 AM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>
How much does the main gear legs and tundra tires weigh that you moved
forward?
Jack B. Hart FF004
Jack H/Gang:
Main gear and 800X6 tires (not tundra tires) weigh about the same as the
tail wheel, maybe a little bit more. My main gear is very light, only 24"
long 4130 legs, total length.
I didn't have a forward cg problem before I added the heavy TW. Have flown
my MKIII with the original skinny nylon snowmobile bogie wheel, 6 lb Maule
TW (installed now), and the 12 lb TW. Took the big TW off last year when it
got to the point it needed some attention, plus thought I might get another
MPH out of it with the smaller TW. No difference in performance, other than
the solid 6" wheel is much rougher and noisier than the big 8" pneumatic
tire. Ground handled much better with the big TW.
john h
mkIII
Mobile, Alabama
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Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[quote][b]
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:23 am Post subject: the aft cg club... |
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Now a Kolb is not a P-51, regrettably, but the tale does illustrate the need to know just how an aircraft reacts to a particular aft CG condition in all aspects of flight it will encounter. It might be fine in straight and level cruise, but not so good when flying at Va in turbulence.
Just a thought.
Rick Girard
| Quote: | | Rick G/Gang: Good advice. When I was finished testing, after installation of the 12 lb TW, I was satisfied I was still flying a safe, comfortable MKIII. If I left out anything during that test, I am sure I found/experienced it last May and June when I encountered some of the most exciting weather I have flown in. In addition, I made that flight to Oregon and back at max gross weight. My style of flying is much different from the local flight around the patch in an empty airplane. I think you can attest to that, the day I landed at your airstrip, last May, in less than desirable conditions. |
0123
[quote][b]
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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Dennis Thate
Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 362
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: the aft cg club... |
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I decided to rent a professional scale from the airport and eliminate the bathroom scales. Tomorrow we will redo the W&B and get it down to a Gnats-Ass .
No responsible pilot wants to fly fudging numbers. There is enough risk in flying an experimental aircraft already !
Stay Tuned !
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Dennis Thate
Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 362
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: the aft cg club... |
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Good News
After a W&B redo and a quality scale we found I'm still far aft. But safely within my cg envelope limits. 
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zeprep251(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:43 pm Post subject: the aft cg club... |
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Dennis, My Firestar 2 needed15# of lead in the nose plus my 170lbs.But it was heavy with paint,aerothane,and almost all the painted surfaces are aft.It was 417# empty, 503dcdi ivo 3 blade w/brakes.It was still a rocket.
G.Aman
--
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:33 pm Post subject: the aft cg club... |
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Far aft? What is it in percent of chord?
Rick Girard
On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 7:29 PM, Dennis Thate <retroman(at)frontier.com (retroman(at)frontier.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Dennis Thate" <retroman(at)frontier.com (retroman(at)frontier.com)>
Good News
After a W&B redo and a quality scale we found I'm still far aft. But safely within my cg envelope limits. [Exclamation]
--------
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute. ~Gil Stern
…”These flying machines are just a fad and will never catch on…” Unknown
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Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[quote][b]
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Dennis Thate
Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 362
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: the aft cg club... |
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| zeprep251(at)aol.com wrote: | Dennis, � My Firestar 2 needed15# of lead in the nose plus my 170lbs.But it was heavy with paint,aerothane,and almost all the painted surfaces are aft.It was 417# empty, 503dcdi ivo 3 blade w/brakes.It was still a rocket.
G.Aman
Good to know...I've decided to put a motorcycle battery up front so I can use my electric heated cycle vest in my open cockpit Kolb.
And extend my flying seasons a bit........
-- |
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Dennis Thate
Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 362
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: the aft cg club... |
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20% _____ 35%
12.4________21.7
My cg 21.18 and a gross weight of 679#
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byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:17 am Post subject: the aft cg club... |
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After a W&B redo and a quality scale we found I'm still far aft. But
safely within my cg envelope limits. [Exclamation]
i like the way my plane feels when in the aft of the cg range.
boyd young
mkiii
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russkinne(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:04 pm Post subject: the aft cg club... |
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Trouble with an aft CG is, as I think you know, the chance of getting into a flat spin & not being able to recover.
IMHO only thing you could do, in a worst-case case, would be to lean WAAAY forward in the cockpit & try to shift the CG forward, & speed up.
Many years ago a Mooney Mite, a small single-engine type, had the engine FALL OFF in flight! -- and the pilot, after some wild maneuvers, found if he leaned forward and kept the airspeed over 110MPH, he could control it. Touched down at just over 110 (WILD!!) and survived.
Wow, talk about 'losing an engine' --
I believe this really happened. Over Cape Cod, MA
You won't like it if you get into a flat spin. Keep your airspeed up.
Russ K
On Oct 28, 2011, at 11:06 AM, b young wrote:
| Quote: |
After a W&B redo and a quality scale we found I'm still far aft. But safely within my cg envelope limits. [Exclamation]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
i like the way my plane feels when in the aft of the cg range.
boyd young
mkiii
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:35 pm Post subject: the aft cg club... |
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Trouble with an aft CG is, as I think you know, the chance of getting into a
flat spin & not being able to recover.
Russ K
Ever heard of a Kolb getting into a flat spin?
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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dan42101(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:04 pm Post subject: the aft cg club... |
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I have heard of pusher planes losing power on take-off and not being able to get the nose down...
The big fan blows on the tail giving it "power steering" on some planes.
- DjD
From: John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 8:33 PM
Subject: RE: Re: the aft cg club...
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>
Trouble with an aft CG is, as I think you know, the chance of getting into a
flat spin & not being able to recover.
Russ K
Ever heard of a Kolb getting into a flat spin?
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:31 am Post subject: the aft cg club... |
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Trouble with an aft CG is, as I think you know, the chance of getting into a
flat spin & not being able to recover.
Russ K
Ever heard of a Kolb getting into a flat spin?
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
i fly near the rear cg limit, and have put the mkiii into a spin on
purpose,,,, i did not have to push opposite rudder to get out,,,, only
release the back and rudder pressure that i had done to induse the spin.
it came out of the spin almost instantly. i am not worried.
boyd
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