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horizontal tail and alignments

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bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:32 pm Post subject: horizontal tail and alignments

The angle of the main wing affects the pitch attitude of the airplane. The angle of the horizontal tail only affects the trim forces required to maintain level flight, not the pitch attitude. If the angle is correct, you should be able to use the trim tab to cancel out elevator forces from cruise speed down to slow flight speeds. If it is a few degrees off, the plane will still fly but you may have to hold pressure on the stick to mainrtain level flight.



On my plane, I couldn't trim out the elevator forces in level flight even with full nose up trim. It flew just fine but I had to hold a little back pressure on the stick all the time. I solved this problem after the third flight by lowering the nose of the horizontal tail about half and inch by making and installing a new set of front attachment brackets. Since each of these airplanes is hand built and unique, you may find the need to make some minor adjustments. That is what you will determine in your first few test flights.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------

From: john butterfield <jdbutterfield(at)yahoo.com>

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 hi list:

 i am fitting my hor stabalizer on the aircraft and

 trying to have it in line with the upper longeron i am

 wondering how precise it must match.  I think it is

 within a few degrees.  What is the effect of it being

 off a little.  i know it will effect the nose up/down

 attitude, but is it serious or annoying.  it seems

 that this would be the best place to adjust the

 incidence after completion.

 

 I have it dead center on the centerline,ie

 perpendicular to the flight path.  i am actually

 hoping that all of the little variations in

 installation will even out and my machine will fly

 right.

 

 this is getting fun. 

 john butterfield

 601xl, corvair

--
	


Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.

do not archive

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_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:39 pm Post subject: horizontal tail and alignments

John,

This is a good place to have the stabilizer center line really aligned 

with the longeron. 

Easier to work out balance and trim in flight if you start there.  See 

link and place a rule

along the rivet line and then the centerline of the stab.  This plane 

will fly hands off in nearly

any trimmed for balance condition.  Otherwise you'll work against an 

easy trim on the elevator.

It could be serious and annoying.

http://www.macsmachine.com/images/rudder/full/rudelev.gif



Good luck,

Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

do not archive



john butterfield wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



hi list:

i am fitting my hor stabalizer on the aircraft and

trying to have it in line with the upper longeron i am

wondering how precise it must match.  I think it is

within a few degrees.  What is the effect of it being

off a little.  i know it will effect the nose up/down

attitude, but is it serious or annoying.  it seems

that this would be the best place to adjust the

incidence after completion.



I have it dead center on the centerline,ie

perpendicular to the flight path.  i am actually

hoping that all of the little variations in

installation will even out and my machine will fly

right.



this is getting fun. 

john butterfield

601xl, corvair

- The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum -

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tutuzulu(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject: horizontal tail and alignments

I spoke with Nick about this at Sun'n'Fun.  He said it's pretty hard

to determine exactly the level of the horizontal stab, so just come as

close as you can.   He didn't seem to think precision was all that

important.  As Bryan says, no matter how exact you get it you may

still have to adjust it for your particular airplane, so you might

want to keep this in mind as you shape that aft topskin.

Bob

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ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 5:28 pm Post subject: horizontal tail and alignments

One important warning:  

   

  We all have to be sure that the Weight and Balance is correct in our airplane.  

   

  Sometimes a wrong (and dangerous) W&B can be compensated with the stabilizer angle position....  But the bad stability (AFT worse) of the airplane remains.  

   

   Lost a good friend pilot this way several years ago in an engine failure at take off.

   

  Saludos

  Gary  Gower.

   

  



Bob Miller <tutuzulu(at)gmail.com> wrote:

    



I spoke with Nick about this at Sun'n'Fun. He said it's pretty hard

to determine exactly the level of the horizontal stab, so just come as

close as you can. He didn't seem to think precision was all that

important. As Bryan says, no matter how exact you get it you may

still have to adjust it for your particular airplane, so you might

want to keep this in mind as you shape that aft topskin.

Bob



   



		

---------------------------------

New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.

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clojan(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 1:59 pm Post subject: horizontal tail and alignments

Bryan: I am glad to see that someone actually did this with success. The trim tab was easy to add but I think your "fix" makes more sense. I was surprised that it took 1/2 " of movement. That seems like a lot. jack in Fresno Ca  do not archive

  



bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net wrote:

  



The angle of the main wing affects the pitch attitude of the airplane. The angle of the horizontal tail only affects the trim forces required to maintain level flight, not the pitch attitude. If the angle is correct, you should be able to use the trim tab to cancel out elevator forces from cruise speed down to slow flight speeds. If it is a few degrees off, the plane will still fly but you may have to hold pressure on the stick to mainrtain level flight.



On my plane, I couldn't trim out the elevator forces in level flight even with full nose up trim. It flew just fine but I had to hold a little back pressure on the stick all the time. I solved this problem after the third flight by lowering the nose of the horizontal tail about half and inch by making and installing a new set of front attachment brackets. Since each of these airplanes is hand built and unique, you may find the need to make some minor adjustments. That is what you will determine in your first few test flights.

-------------- Original message ----------------------

From: john butterfield 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 hi list:

 i am fitting my hor stabalizer on the aircraft and

 trying to have it in line with the upper longeron i am

 wondering how precise it must match. I think it is

 within a few degrees. What is the effect of it being

 off a little. i know it will effect the nose up/down

 attitude, but is it serious or annoying. it seems

 that this would be the best place to adjust the

 incidence after completion.

 

 I have it dead center on the centerline,ie

 perpendicular to the flight path. i am actually

 hoping that all of the little variations in

 installation will even out and my machine will fly

 right.

 

 this is getting fun. 

 john butterfield

 601xl, corvair

--
	


Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.

do not archive

- The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 3:32 pm Post subject: horizontal tail and alignments

Before I made that change, I flew the plane with a sheet of aluminum duct taped to the bottom of the trim tab ,effectively doubling its size. I was able to trim out the control forces on that flight using most of the available nose up trim. Looking at the elevator deflection needed for level flight, I decided about half an inch should be a good place to start. I still can't trim it out with more than a few degrees of flaps but this is only a minor inconvenience during final approach. It's on my list of things to look into when I have time.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------

From: Jack Russell <clojan(at)sbcglobal.net>

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Bryan: I am glad to see that someone actually did this with success. The trim 

 tab was easy to add but I think your "fix" makes more sense. I was surprised 

 that it took 1/2 " of movement. That seems like a lot. jack in Fresno Ca  do not 

 archive

   

 

 bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net wrote:

   

 

 

 On my plane, I couldn't trim out the elevator forces in level flight even with 

 full nose up trim. It flew just fine but I had to hold a little back pressure on 

 the stick all the time. I solved this problem after the third flight by lowering 

 the nose of the horizontal tail about half and inch by making and installing a 

 new set of front attachment brackets. 

--
	


Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.

do not archive

- The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 4:17 pm Post subject: horizontal tail and alignments

I am think the same thing,  There can to be a little problem with final rigging (main wings angles or something)  or Weight and Balance.   

   

   It will be  advisable to go to this numbers one more time, better if one or two  experienced builders from your local Airport, Club or EAA Chapter  (experience in building any type of airplane or kit will be OK).

   

  We do this everytime a plane is ready to fly when is finished from building or was rebuild in our Club here. 

  Lots of little important details are not watched by the builder and can cause problem.

   

  The ZAC airplanes are very forgiving in flight,  there are designed on the safety side. Is something I like very much about Mr Chris Heintz and this ariplanes.  

   

   Probably will never give you any problem or scare you in flight as is now.  

  But if you can find this deviation and correct it. the plane probably will fly better (less drag) and you will have a great peace of mind feeling when you fly all over the world! 

   

  Welcome to Chapala, any time.

   

  Here we are the two "Safety Advisors" for the list:  Frank with vapor lock and myself with Weight and Balance'        One thing is serious and important, no one of us want bad news about any friend in this list.   

   

  Saludos

  Gary Gower

  Flying from Chapala, Mexico 

  701 912S

  Building a 601 XL kit.



Jack Russell <clojan(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

  



Bryan: I am glad to see that someone actually did this with success. The trim tab was easy to add but I think your "fix" makes more sense. I was surprised that it took 1/2 " of movement. That seems like a lot. jack in Fresno Ca do not archive

bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net wrote:




The angle of the main wing affects the pitch attitude of the airplane. The angle of the horizontal tail only affects the trim forces required to maintain level flight, not the pitch attitude. If the angle is correct, you should be able to use the trim tab to cancel out elevator forces from cruise speed down to slow flight speeds. If it is a few degrees off, the plane will still fly but you may have to hold pressure on the stick to mainrtain level flight.



On my plane, I couldn't trim out the elevator forces in level flight even with full nose up trim. It flew just fine but I had to hold a little back pressure on the stick all the time. I solved this problem after the third flight by lowering the nose of the horizontal tail about half and inch by making and installing a new set of front attachment brackets. Since each of these airplanes is hand built and unique, you may find the need to make some minor adjustments. That is what you will determine in your first few test flights.

-------------- Original message ----------------------

From: john butterfield 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 hi list:

 i am fitting my hor stabalizer on the aircraft and

 trying to have it in line with the upper longeron i am

 wondering how precise it must match. I think it is

 within a few degrees. What is the effect of it being

 off a little. i know it will effect the nose up/down

 attitude, but is it serious or annoying. it seems

 that this would be the best place to adjust the

 incidence after completion.

 

 I have it dead center on the centerline,ie

 perpendicular to the flight path. i am actually

 hoping that all of the little variations in

 installation will even out and my machine will fly

 right.

 

 this is getting fun. 

 john butterfield

 601xl, corvair

--
	


Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.

do not archive

		

---------------------------------

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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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daveaustin2(at)can.rogers
Guest

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 3:26 am Post subject: horizontal tail and alignments

Dave Austin  601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII

---

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