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Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650

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steve.freeman(at)syntaxds
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:03 am Post subject: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650

Hi Guys,

 

I have a part to install in my 650 airframe, 6-S-5-2 and 6-S-5-3. Aileron Stop Support and Aileron Stop, respectively.  MY question is this, the opening that inhibits movement of the tab on the control stick is fairly small and only allows for a small amount of left right movement.

 

I know there was a lot discussion recently about “ham fisted” pilots or passengers kicking the control stick but even with all of that said is this small amount of deflection all that is really needed to safely control this aircraft?  With this part in place the control tab can only move left and right about 5 mm.

 

I have flown right seat in a 601HDS for many hours hours and the stick need very little movement to fly but this seems like a little much.  Does this control really prevent people from overly aggressive stick maneuvers which might put the aircraft into flight conditions not recommended?

 

Any help, thoughts or advice would be appreciated.  Now is the time for me to install this so I want to be sure I should be before I do.



Thanks,

 

Steve Freeman

 

  [quote][b]

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psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:20 pm Post subject: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650

Hi Steve,

     

     The instructions that came with the upgrade kit said to increase the     size of that opening to get the proper movement allowance.  There is     specification later in the prints that shows how far the ailerons     need to move both up and down for proper control of the plane.

     

     Paul

     Camas, WA

     

     On 11/25/2011 10:00 AM, Steve Freeman wrote:     [quote]                       <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->                

Hi Guys,         

          

I have a part to install in my 650           airframe, 6-S-5-2 and 6-S-5-3. Aileron Stop Support and           Aileron Stop, respectively.  MY question is this, the opening           that inhibits movement of the tab on the control stick is           fairly small and only allows for a small amount of left right           movement.         

          

I know there was a lot discussion recently           about “ham fisted” pilots or passengers kicking the control           stick but even with all of that said is this small amount of           deflection all that is really needed to safely control this           aircraft?  With this part in place the control tab can only           move left and right about 5 mm.         

          

I have flown right seat in a 601HDS for           many hours hours and the stick need very little movement to           fly but this seems like a little much.  Does this control           really prevent people from overly aggressive stick maneuvers           which might put the aircraft into flight conditions not           recommended?         

          

Any help, thoughts or advice would be           appreciated.  Now is the time for me to install this so I want           to be sure I should be before I do.         



           Thanks,         

          

Steve Freeman         

        

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jeffrey_davidson(at)earth
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:22 pm Post subject: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650

Steve,

I recently attended a talk given by John Clark of the NTSB.  He is a member of my local Chapter 186 of the EAA.  According to John, the Aileron stop inside the cabin is meant to reduce or eliminate stress on the rib that supports the aileron bellcrank.  Evidently that was a finding in at least some of the 5 accident planes that he personally inspected.  If you want more details, let me know and I can have John contact you to explain in greater detail.

Jeff Davidson



 

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steve.freeman(at)syntaxds
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:28 pm Post subject: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650

Hi Paul,

 

<< increase the size of that opening to get the proper movement allowance>>

 

This is also on the plans but I don’t understand.  Assuming the airframe is built according to plans it seems to me something like this should be at least “close” to where it needs to be.  The part I received from ZAC leaves very little room for left to right deflection.

 

The area where this piece will be installed will be very difficult to access for the top of modification required to enlarge that opening.  Thank goodness for the big access panel on the bottom or it would be virtually impossible.

 

But with that said – does anyone have any experience with how much this opening needs to be modified from what is supplied by ZAC?

 

ZAC does a lot of things right and some things wrong.  To me this falls in the latter category.  I see no reason why this aileron stop should not be sized correctly if the assumption is the plane was built to plans.  Additionally I think it would be a lot easier to make this hole smaller (with a piece of .040 on either side of the hole to reduce the size of the opening) rather than larger.



Thanks,

 

Steve

 

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz

Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 2:17 PM

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650

 

Hi Steve,



The instructions that came with the upgrade kit said to increase the size of that opening to get the proper movement allowance.  There is specification later in the prints that shows how far the ailerons need to move both up and down for proper control of the plane.



Paul

Camas, WA



On 11/25/2011 10:00 AM, Steve Freeman wrote: 

Hi Guys,

 

I have a part to install in my 650 airframe, 6-S-5-2 and 6-S-5-3. Aileron Stop Support and Aileron Stop, respectively.  MY question is this, the opening that inhibits movement of the tab on the control stick is fairly small and only allows for a small amount of left right movement.

 

I know there was a lot discussion recently about “ham fisted” pilots or passengers kicking the control stick but even with all of that said is this small amount of deflection all that is really needed to safely control this aircraft?  With this part in place the control tab can only move left and right about 5 mm.

 

I have flown right seat in a 601HDS for many hours hours and the stick need very little movement to fly but this seems like a little much.  Does this control really prevent people from overly aggressive stick maneuvers which might put the aircraft into flight conditions not recommended?

 

Any help, thoughts or advice would be appreciated.  Now is the time for me to install this so I want to be sure I should be before I do.



Thanks,

 

Steve Freeman

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psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:53 pm Post subject: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650

Hi Steve,

     

     I agree with your comments.  I was trying to avoid pointing out that     I think this part is ridiculous.  I did not install it on my plane     even though I did install the rest of the upgrade parts.

     

     One problem that makes design of this part difficult is the simple     fact that it is a second set of deflection limits on a single set of     parts - the ailerons.  If you made the hole the right size for the     deflection then you would also need to install an additional     turnbuckle so you could adjust both sides of the cable system going     to the ailerons.  It seems you are asked to first set up the     ailerons using one turnbuckle and stops at the rear spar (channel)     and then somehow figure out how to adjust the opening in the second,     central, stop device to match the cables to the already set stops.      It seems to be a poorly thought out design to me.

     

     I understand the comment that there were problems with the rib     buckling that holds the aileron bellcrank assembly.  This was also     addressed with several new parts along with a heavier support for     the assembly at the rib in question.

     

     Fortunately, these are experimental amateur built airplanes so each     builder gets to decide exactly what to do to his plane and what not     to do.  It is not so simple for the company that sold these as S-LSA     devices, AMD.  OOps, they went out of business, didn't they?

     

     Paul

     Camas, WA

     XL in flight test - just over 20 hours.

     

     On 11/25/2011 4:25 PM, Steve Freeman wrote:     [quote]                       <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->                

Hi Paul,         

          

<<           increase the size of that opening to get the proper movement           allowance>>         

          

This is also on the plans but I don’t           understand.  Assuming the airframe is built according to plans           it seems to me something like this should be at least “close”           to where it needs to be.  The part I received from ZAC leaves           very little room for left to right deflection.         

          

The area where this piece will be installed           will be very difficult to access for the top of modification           required to enlarge that opening.  Thank goodness for the big           access panel on the bottom or it would be virtually           impossible.         

          

But with that said – does anyone have any           experience with how much this opening needs to be modified           from what is supplied by ZAC?         

          

ZAC does a lot of things right and some           things wrong.  To me this falls in the latter category.  I see           no reason why this aileron stop should not be sized correctly           if the assumption is the plane was built to plans.            Additionally I think it would be a lot easier to make this           hole smaller (with a piece of .040 on either side of the hole           to reduce the size of the opening) rather than larger.         



           Thanks,         

          

Steve         

                                  

From:                 owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com)                 [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On                   Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz

                 Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 2:17 PM

                 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)

                 Subject: Re: Qurestion on Aileron                 Stop 650           

         

         

          

Hi Steve,

           

           The instructions that came with the upgrade kit said to           increase the size of that opening to get the proper movement           allowance.  There is specification later in the prints that           shows how far the ailerons need to move both up and down for           proper control of the plane.

           

           Paul

           Camas, WA

           

           On 11/25/2011 10:00 AM, Steve Freeman wrote:          

Hi Guys,         

          

I have a part to install in my 650           airframe, 6-S-5-2 and 6-S-5-3. Aileron Stop Support and           Aileron Stop, respectively.  MY question is this, the opening           that inhibits movement of the tab on the control stick is           fairly small and only allows for a small amount of left right           movement.         

          

I know there was a lot discussion recently           about “ham fisted” pilots or passengers kicking the control           stick but even with all of that said is this small amount of           deflection all that is really needed to safely control this           aircraft?  With this part in place the control tab can only           move left and right about 5 mm.         

          

I have flown right seat in a 601HDS for           many hours hours and the stick need very little movement to           fly but this seems like a little much.  Does this control           really prevent people from overly aggressive stick maneuvers           which might put the aircraft into flight conditions not           recommended?         

          

Any help, thoughts or advice would be           appreciated.  Now is the time for me to install this so I want           to be sure I should be before I do.         



           Thanks,         

          

Steve Freeman         

           	  Quote: 	
		       Please Support Your Lists This Month nbsp;    (And Get Some AWESOME FREE    November is the Annual List Fund Raiser.  Click below to find out more Free Incentive Gifts AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com<www.buildersbooks.comwww.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.matronics.com/c=                              -Matt Dralle, List         - The Zenith-List Email Forum utilities such as List Photoshare, and much much    --> http://www.matron===================http://forums.matronics.com         - List Contribution Web generous nbsp;                        --> http://www.matronics.com/c= 	
       

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jeffrey_davidson(at)earth
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:58 pm Post subject: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650

Evidently AMD lives on as Eastman Aircraft.  There is a web site and the building and the address appear to be the same.  I talked to Doug Dugger at Oshkosh.  He is the owner on the West Coast now.  Michael Heintz evidently has gone back to Europe.

   

Jeff D



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