 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
sidsel.svein(at)oslo.onli
Guest
|
 Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:42 am Post subject: Bottom cut-outs |
 |
|
When I installed the fuel hoses in the then not yet installed cockpit module(supply line, return, drains, sight tube), I did not think about renewing the hoses. Now, I realize that access to some of this is difficult, at best.
I built my plane with a cut-out in the bottom where the monowheel would have been (mine is a tri-gear), with a hinged hatch door for easy access to gascolator, fuel pump, drains, Andair fuel selector valve, etc. It is, alas, too tight to reach further back and do much there.
I know that some have cut out the bottom between the two round tank outlet inspection hatches – see the green area A on the attached sketch. I cannot see that this weakens the construction, but on the other hand it may not give me the access I would like.
Has anyone cut out the red area, marked B? If so, how has it been covered/the area reinforced? Although the very strong cockpit module probably carry the loads on its own, this part does give some contribution to strength. I can see ways to maintain the strength when a cover plate is bolted in place, but if anyone has already tread this path, I would appreciate to know the details.
Regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
| Description: |
|
Download |
| Filename: |
Bottom_cut-outs.pdf |
| Filesize: |
28.41 KB |
| Downloaded: |
263 Time(s) |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Gary.Leinberger(at)miller
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:50 am Post subject: Bottom cut-outs |
|
|
I also have the tri-gear, and have the wheel well area covered with a door. I also cut out the area A (on your drawing) and made one long oval door between the two round holes . I reinforced this oval opening with thin aluminum and glass. In addition, I put an additional several layers of glass across the entire bottom and up the sides about 6 inches. In part I did this to reinforce the hole I made between the normal round holes and also because a friend with an older Europa said that after a few years his Tri-gear developed cracks around the gear supports. The rule is that you have to replace a cut out area with some multiple of the area removed (4?, 6?). I probably went over board and will see the costs of my over- reinforcement next month when we do the weight and balance (I have nightmares that I have built a single person plane – and that person must be skinny – something I am not.)
I would not be too happy about cutting out more as in area B in your drawing – especially after the cockpit is in and you can’t reinforce the surrounding glass from the inside. – although the way the cockpit module is glued in means the structure is really strong.
Although my gas valve is on the top of the cockpit module center armrest I did cut out the provided cutout for the gas value on the co-pilot side of the cockpit module. This approximately 6” hole does provide some access.
The other approach is to move the parts so they are accessible. I have been through several revisions of the fuel system to make it maintainable. The rule I have found is that it takes 1 X of time to make it work, 2 X to make it work and be maintainable, and 3x of time to make it work, be maintainable and be pretty. Or maybe you can get your spouse (with hopefully small hands) or a small child to do that part of the maintenance.
Gary Leinberger
A237
Real near flying (except for just a few “little” things)
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sidsel & Svein Johnsen
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 10:39 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Bottom cut-outs
When I installed the fuel hoses in the then not yet installed cockpit module(supply line, return, drains, sight tube), I did not think about renewing the hoses. Now, I realize that access to some of this is difficult, at best.
I built my plane with a cut-out in the bottom where the monowheel would have been (mine is a tri-gear), with a hinged hatch door for easy access to gascolator, fuel pump, drains, Andair fuel selector valve, etc. It is, alas, too tight to reach further back and do much there.
I know that some have cut out the bottom between the two round tank outlet inspection hatches – see the green area A on the attached sketch. I cannot see that this weakens the construction, but on the other hand it may not give me the access I would like.
Has anyone cut out the red area, marked B? If so, how has it been covered/the area reinforced? Although the very strong cockpit module probably carry the loads on its own, this part does give some contribution to strength. I can see ways to maintain the strength when a cover plate is bolted in place, but if anyone has already tread this path, I would appreciate to know the details.
Regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gary.Leinberger(at)miller
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:22 am Post subject: Bottom cut-outs |
|
|
Being a belt and suspenders guy, I would put BID on the top of the aluminum and run up the inside of the tunnel wall to carry the load up the sides. I wouldn’t bolt it but rather rivet it (just to hold it in place or clamp it until the glue dries – then glass it in place – you are never going to take it out I assume. You can also use the aluminum and/or the fliberglass to provide the lip to hold the door flush to the bottom and to hold your nut plates for mounting the door. (Wrap the door in saran wrap and use as the form for the lip – as you probably know.)
I have been working with Bud Yerly and he has convinced me to nutplate everything – so I can remove stuff without a helper.
Gary Leinberger
Associate Professor
Finance
McComsey Hall 340
Millersville University
MWF 11-Noon, TTH 3:45-4:30 PM, W 1-3 PM
717-872-3817
gleinberger(at)millersville.edu
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sidsel & Svein Johnsen
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 12:49 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: SV: Bottom cut-outs
Gary,
Thank you very much for your good comments.
I will give it a try with the openings that I presently have, and will do as you suggest – move some parts (the T for fuel return and the T for sight tube) so that they become accessible in the wheel well, provided I manage to get out those parts and hoses (some surgical cutting of the old hoses could do the trick).
Without having performed any structural analysis, attached is a sketch of how area B (ref. my previous mail) could be cut out and the strength of the bottom retained when an aluminum cover of adequate thickness and quality is bolted in the cut-out’s place. WARNING: Not verified in any way!!
Good luck with completion of your build!
Regards,
Svein
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
carlmeek(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:42 am Post subject: Bottom cut-outs |
|
|
Belt and suspenders has a totally different meaning in the UK....
Sent from my iPhone
On 13 Dec 2011, at 18:18, Gary Leinberger <Gary.Leinberger(at)millersville.edu (Gary.Leinberger(at)millersville.edu)> wrote:
[quote] <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Being a belt and suspenders guy, I would put BID on the top of the aluminum and run up the inside of the tunnel wall to carry the load up the sides. I wouldn’t bolt it but rather rivet it (just to hold it in place or clamp it until the glue dries – then glass it in place – you are never going to take it out I assume. You can also use the aluminum and/or the fliberglass to provide the lip to hold the door flush to the bottom and to hold your nut plates for mounting the door. (Wrap the door in saran wrap and use as the form for the lip – as you probably know.)
I have been working with Bud Yerly and he has convinced me to nutplate everything – so I can remove stuff without a helper.
Gary Leinberger
Associate Professor
Finance
McComsey Hall 340
Millersville University
MWF 11-Noon, TTH 3:45-4:30 PM, W 1-3 PM
717-872-3817
gleinberger(at)millersville.edu (gleinberger(at)millersville.edu)
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sidsel & Svein Johnsen
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 12:49 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: SV: Bottom cut-outs
Gary,
Thank you very much for your good comments.
I will give it a try with the openings that I presently have, and will do as you suggest – move some parts (the T for fuel return and the T for sight tube) so that they become accessible in the wheel well, provided I manage to get out those parts and hoses (some surgical cutting of the old hoses could do the trick).
Without having performed any structural analysis, attached is a sketch of how area B (ref. my previous mail) could be cut out and the strength of the bottom retained when an aluminum cover of adequate thickness and quality is bolted in the cut-out’s place. WARNING: Not verified in any way!!
Good luck with completion of your build!
Regards,
Svein
| Quote: |
===================================
ctric.com
| Quote: | www.buildersbooks.com
uilthelp.com
|
matronics.com/contribution
===================================
tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
===================================
cs.com
===================================
matronics.com/contribution
===================================
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gary.Leinberger(at)miller
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:13 pm Post subject: Bottom cut-outs |
|
|
Do I really want to know want it means?
Gary Leinberger
Associate Professor
Finance
McComsey Hall 340
Millersville University
MWF 11-Noon, TTH 3:45-4:30 PM, W 1-3 PM
717-872-3817
gleinberger(at)millersville.edu
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Meek
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 1:39 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Bottom cut-outs
Belt and suspenders has a totally different meaning in the UK....
Sent from my iPhone
On 13 Dec 2011, at 18:18, Gary Leinberger <Gary.Leinberger(at)millersville.edu (Gary.Leinberger(at)millersville.edu)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Being a belt and suspenders guy, I would put BID on the top of the aluminum and run up the inside of the tunnel wall to carry the load up the sides. I wouldn’t bolt it but rather rivet it (just to hold it in place or clamp it until the glue dries – then glass it in place – you are never going to take it out I assume. You can also use the aluminum and/or the fliberglass to provide the lip to hold the door flush to the bottom and to hold your nut plates for mounting the door. (Wrap the door in saran wrap and use as the form for the lip – as you probably know.)
I have been working with Bud Yerly and he has convinced me to nutplate everything – so I can remove stuff without a helper.
Gary Leinberger
Associate Professor
Finance
McComsey Hall 340
Millersville University
MWF 11-Noon, TTH 3:45-4:30 PM, W 1-3 PM
717-872-3817
gleinberger(at)millersville.edu (gleinberger(at)millersville.edu)
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] ([email][mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com][/email]) On Behalf Of Sidsel & Svein Johnsen
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 12:49 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: SV: Europa-List: Bottom cut-outs
Gary,
Thank you very much for your good comments.
I will give it a try with the openings that I presently have, and will do as you suggest – move some parts (the T for fuel return and the T for sight tube) so that they become accessible in the wheel well, provided I manage to get out those parts and hoses (some surgical cutting of the old hoses could do the trick).
Without having performed any structural analysis, attached is a sketch of how area B (ref. my previous mail) could be cut out and the strength of the bottom retained when an aluminum cover of adequate thickness and quality is bolted in the cut-out’s place. WARNING: Not verified in any way!!
Good luck with completion of your build!
Regards,
Svein
| Quote: | | ===================================ctric.com>www.buildersbooks.comuilthelp.commatronics.com/contribution===================================tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=================================== |
01234
|
56789 | Quote: | | =================================== |
0 | Quote: | | =================================== |
1 | Quote: | | =================================== |
2 | Quote: | | =================================== |
3 | Quote: | | =================================== |
4 | Quote: | | =================================== |
5 | Quote: | | =================================== |
6 | Quote: | | =================================== |
7 | Quote: | | =================================== |
8 | Quote: | | =================================== |
9012345678901234567890123456789 | Quote: | | matronics.com/contribution |
0
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:57 am Post subject: Bottom cut-outs |
|
|
That vacant monowheel space seemed a real waste to me. I installed a Lexan window in two parts, fixed and sliding, and also made the front bulkhead out of lexan in an aluminum frame. This allows me to inspect the nosewheel suspension and wheel from inside the cockpit, do aerial photography, drop hand grenades or anything else I need to get rid of. Could also be used for extra ventilation.The window is easily removable for an opening large enough to stick my head into.
The top of the tunnel also has a removable opening. I have all the usual stuff coming through the tunnel, including Jamar based finger brakes, but these are mounted to the underside of the forward tunnel, completely different and much simpler than the factory solution. Throttle (push/pull with friction lock) and choke are mounted in mini panel below main panel. So I can still use all of the tunnel for extra storage for maps etc.
The above is best prepared at an early stage, before installing the instrument and cockpit modules. I cut back the middle lower section of the instrument module to expose more tunnel top, and I installed re-enforcement bid brackets around the bottom opening before bonding in the cockpit module, although that was probably unnecessary.
I have no pictures at the moment as I am a long way from my aircraft.
Cheers,
Karl
From: Gary.Leinberger(at)millersville.edu
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 11:46:39 -0500
Subject: RE: Bottom cut-outs
.ExternalClass p.ecxMsoNormal, .ExternalClass li.ecxMsoNormal, .ExternalClass div.ecxMsoNormal {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";} .ExternalClass a:link, .ExternalClass span.ecxMsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass a:visited, .ExternalClass span.ecxMsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass p.ecxMsoAcetate, .ExternalClass li.ecxMsoAcetate, .ExternalClass div.ecxMsoAcetate {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";} .ExternalClass span.ecxBalloonTextChar {font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";} .ExternalClass span.ecxEmailStyle19 {font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext;} .ExternalClass p.ecxBobletekst, .ExternalClass li.ecxBobletekst, .ExternalClass div.ecxBobletekst {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";} .ExternalClass span.ecxBobletekstTegn {font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";} .ExternalClass span.ecxEmailStyle22 {font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;} .ExternalClass .ecxMsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} (at)page WordSection1 {size:8.5in 11.0in;} .ExternalClass div.ecxWordSection1 {page:WordSection1;}
I also have the tri-gear, and have the wheel well area covered with a door. I also cut out the area A (on your drawing) and made one long oval door between the two round holes . I reinforced this oval opening with thin aluminum and glass. In addition, I put an additional several layers of glass across the entire bottom and up the sides about 6 inches. In part I did this to reinforce the hole I made between the normal round holes and also because a friend with an older Europa said that after a few years his Tri-gear developed cracks around the gear supports. The rule is that you have to replace a cut out area with some multiple of the area removed (4?, 6?). I probably went over board and will see the costs of my over- reinforcement next month when we do the weight and balance (I have nightmares that I have built a single person plane – and that person must be skinny – something I am not.)
I would not be too happy about cutting out more as in area B in your drawing – especially after the cockpit is in and you can’t reinforce the surrounding glass from the inside. – although the way the cockpit module is glued in means the structure is really strong.
Although my gas valve is on the top of the cockpit module center armrest I did cut out the provided cutout for the gas value on the co-pilot side of the cockpit module. This approximately 6” hole does provide some access.
The other approach is to move the parts so they are accessible. I have been through several revisions of the fuel system to make it maintainable. The rule I have found is that it takes 1 X of time to make it work, 2 X to make it work and be maintainable, and 3x of time to make it work, be maintainable and be pretty. Or maybe you can get your spouse (with hopefully small hands) or a small child to do that part of the maintenance.
Gary Leinberger
A237
Real near flying (except for just a few “little” things)
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sidsel & Svein Johnsen
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 10:39 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Bottom cut-outs
When I installed the fuel hoses in the then not yet installed cockpit module(supply line, return, drains, sight tube), I did not think about renewing the hoses. Now, I realize that access to some of this is difficult, at best.
I built my plane with a cut-out in the bottom where the monowheel would have been (mine is a tri-gear), with a hinged hatch door for easy access to gascolator, fuel pump, drains, Andair fuel selector valve, etc. It is, alas, too tight to reach further back and do much there.
I know that some have cut out the bottom between the two round tank outlet inspection hatches – see the green area A on the attached sketch. I cannot see that this weakens the construction, but on the other hand it may not give me the access I would like.
Has anyone cut out the red area, marked B? If so, how has it been covered/the area reinforced? Although the very strong cockpit module probably carry the loads on its own, this part does give some contribution to strength. I can see ways to maintain the strength when a cover plate is bolted in place, but if anyone has already tread this path, I would appreciate to know the details.
Regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
[quote]
_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
http://forums.matronics.com
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
[b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
