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Converting to externally reg alternator
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fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:19 pm Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator

Bob,



I have seen it but can't find it right now.  Can you point me to an

instruction for converting an internally regulated alternator to external?



Thanks 



Bevan

mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:52 am Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator

I have seen it but can't find it right now.  Can you point me to an

instruction for converting an internally regulated alternator to external?



Thanks 



Bevan



Here is one at the EAA site which might help you.

http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-09_howto_alternator.asp



Roger

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Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:43 am Post subject: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator

Eric is easily amused...



try:



http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Converting+to+externally+regulated+alternator



But here is where I will annoy Bob N.: Consider the fact that if automobile alternators had a lower failure rate if they were externally regulated, auto makers would use them. The fact is that BRAND NEW (not rebuilt) Nippon Denso alternators seem to have a nearly-zero failure rate. 



Then make your decision. I have had several builders send me their external regulators for examination. This cemented my opinion permanently.

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

email(at)jaredyates.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:57 am Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator

I think Bob will say that the failure rate is less important than the failure mode.  At least that is what I would say. 



On Apr 2, 2012, at 9:43, "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Eric is easily amused...

 

 try:

 

 http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Converting+to+externally+regulated+alternator

 

 But here is where I will annoy Bob N.: Consider the fact that if automobile regulators had a lower failure rate if they were externally regulated, auto makers would use them. The fact is that BRAND NEW (not rebuilt) Nippon Denso alternators seem to have a nearly-zero failure rate. 

 

 Then make your decision. I have had several builders send me their external regulators for examination. This cemented my opinion permanently.

 

 --------

 Eric M. Jones

 www.PerihelionDesign.com

 113 Brentwood Drive

 Southbridge, MA 01550

 (508) 764-2072

 emjones(at)charter.net

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369828#369828

Ed Anderson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 475

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:11 am Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator

I have been flying over 12 years on a Bosch (rebuilt) alternator with 

internal regulator - with no problems.  The only downside I can see is that 

once it has bootstrapped itself, removing voltage to the field coil does not 

stop the output.  So if I had a runaway alternator it could theoretically 

fry my electronics - on the other hand, in all my life of driving 

automobiles and the one or two alternator failures (failed diodes), I've 

never had a runaway alternator failure mode.



FWIW



Ed



Edward L. Anderson

Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC

305 Reefton Road

Weddington, NC 28104

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.eicommander.com

--------------------------------------------------

From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>

Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 9:43 AM

To: <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <emjones(at)charter.net>



 Eric is easily amused...



 try:



 http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Converting+to+externally+regulated+alternator



 But here is where I will annoy Bob N.: Consider the fact that if 

 automobile regulators had a lower failure rate if they were externally 

 regulated, auto makers would use them. The fact is that BRAND NEW (not 

 rebuilt) Nippon Denso alternators seem to have a nearly-zero failure rate.



 Then make your decision. I have had several builders send me their 

 external regulators for examination. This cemented my opinion permanently.



 --------

 Eric M. Jones

 www.PerihelionDesign.com

 113 Brentwood Drive

 Southbridge, MA 01550

 (508) 764-2072

 emjones(at)charter.net





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369828#369828

_________________
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com

mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:35 am Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator

Consider the fact that if automobile regulators had a lower failure rate if

they were externally regulated, auto makers would use them. The fact is that

BRAND NEW (not rebuilt) Nippon Denso alternators seem to have a nearly-zero

failure rate. 



Then make your decision. I have had several builders send me their external

regulators for examination. This cemented my opinion permanently.

		Eric,



		I believe that perhaps Bob does agree with you, in that the

internally regulated alternator has "nearly-zero" but NOT ZERO failure.

Apparently there have been some cases of catastrophic over voltage with no

way to shut it down, when in the air.  Have you found this to be the case

with the externally regulated alternators?  With the external regulator,

when you shut off power to the regulator it positively shuts down the

alternator.



		I personally feel that the risk is very low with the

internal regulation, but also wonder why TC aircraft have continued to use

external regulation.



		Roger

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bob.verwey(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:27 am Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator

Does the crowbar module not offer enough protection? With a VFR day

only, electronic ignition setup, minimal elctrogizmos, does not the

reserve battery power give a safe reserve?



Bob Verwey

On 02/04/2012, ROGER &  JEAN CURTIS <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Consider the fact that if automobile regulators had a lower failure rate if

 they were externally regulated, auto makers would use them. The fact is that

 BRAND NEW (not rebuilt) Nippon Denso alternators seem to have a nearly-zero

 failure rate.



 Then make your decision. I have had several builders send me their external

 regulators for examination. This cemented my opinion permanently.

 		Eric,



 		I believe that perhaps Bob does agree with you, in that the

 internally regulated alternator has "nearly-zero" but NOT ZERO failure.

 Apparently there have been some cases of catastrophic over voltage with no

 way to shut it down, when in the air.  Have you found this to be the case

 with the externally regulated alternators?  With the external regulator,

 when you shut off power to the regulator it positively shuts down the

 alternator.



 		I personally feel that the risk is very low with the

 internal regulation, but also wonder why TC aircraft have continued to use

 external regulation.



 		Roger

mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:14 am Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator

Does the crowbar module not offer enough protection? With a VFR day

only, electronic ignition setup, minimal elctrogizmos, does not the

reserve battery power give a safe reserve?



Bob Verwey

		The Conventional crowbar module is used with the external

regulator.  The internal regulator does not work with the external crowbar

circuit.



		Roger

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email(at)jaredyates.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:47 am Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator

My internally regulated plane power alt has crowbar ov protection. 



On Apr 2, 2012, at 12:12, "ROGER &  JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Does the crowbar module not offer enough protection? With a VFR day

 only, electronic ignition setup, minimal elctrogizmos, does not the

 reserve battery power give a safe reserve?

 

 Bob Verwey

 

 

        The Conventional crowbar module is used with the external

 regulator.  The internal regulator does not work with the external crowbar

 circuit.

 

        Roger

 <winmail.dat>

fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:41 am Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator

Wow, I didn't think my question would hit such a sensitive nerve.  In the same league as a primer war.     

My question was about the "how" but many of you are interested in discussing the "why".  Here's where I'm coming from.   

For better or worse, the decision was made a long time ago to configure my electrical system for external regulation ala Bob M.  Now I'm getting close to needing an alternator and looking at the options.  I will have an SD-8 backup alternator and therefore don't consider the main alternator as being required to be of the absolute best quality.  It just needs to have a failure mode that does not affect other more expensive electronics.  As far as I know, there are no "100% guaranteed to work for ever" alternators anyway.  So my theory is to have a spare in the hangar ready to go or to be brought to me when/if a failure occurs.  I'm thinking I would rather have two $100 alternators that I have converted to external regulation and tested than one $595 alternator and no spare.    

When, converting two to external regulation I will learn something and decide whether I can do this when away from my regular tool box.  I may be too far from my spare and have to buy an internally regulated one and convert it out in the field.  I seem to recall that it's not too difficult of a process.  More like a removal of unnecessary parts.  Something I am usually pretty good at.  I plan on keeping some maintenance papers in the plane's tool bag anyway, one of which could be the alternator process.  

My thoughts only.  You may have another opinion and that's fine with me.   

Bevan   

"I like to build and fix things"  

 

  

_____________________________________________   

From:   owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)]  On Behalf Of ROGER &  JEAN CURTIS  

Sent:   Monday, April 02, 2012 9:12 AM  

To:     aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com  

Subject:        RE: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator  

  

Does the crowbar module not offer enough protection? With a VFR day  

only, electronic ignition setup, minimal elctrogizmos, does not the  

reserve battery power give a safe reserve?   

Bob Verwey  

  

The Conventional crowbar module is used with the external regulator.  The internal regulator does not work with the external crowbar circuit.  

Roger  
    [quote][b]

longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:32 am Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator

Beven,



According to Mr. Google, this should take about 30 minutes. http://www.wallaceracing.com/alt-conversion.html



It looks like it's more popular to covert externals to internals (at least in the automotive world where the externals always failed). 



Funny, I don't see too many folks lying under their cars on the turnpike pulling out their internally regulated jobs. I've run many a car well past 100k and never had the alternator go. That's why I've got an IR in my bird. I took have an SD-8. Wouldn't leave home without it. 



Occasionally I talk to pilots who piss and moan about how they had to fly their so and so to the alternator shop so they could have Mr. Alternator specialist provide a special part for their regulator. No Thanks



Cut those wires and go fly. It's summer time.



Glenn, N57



--

fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:40 am Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator

Eric,



Very funny.  But even this google search did not turn up what I was looking

for.  It seems that your search result was to convert an old car to

internally regulated alternators.  So I say "very funny".  I know how to do

a google search.  What I was looking for was a step by step documented

procedure I had seen on someone's build site.



Could it be that automotive manufactures may have gone to internal

regulation because is was more reliable via a solid state design with all

components contained within one housing therefore easier to install in the

vehicles coming down the assembly line?  Were the voltage regulators that

you took apart and didn't like, mechanical regulators?  I seem to recall my

1971 chev truck had a mechanical regulator mounted on the fender.



Bevan 



--

mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:16 am Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator

Bevan,



Was this not the information you were looking for??

I have seen it but can't find it right now.  Can you point me to an

instruction for converting an internally regulated alternator to external?



Thanks 



Bevan



Here is one at the EAA site which might help you.

http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-09_howto_alternator.asp



Roger

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fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:09 pm Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator

Yes but,   

I seem to recall a modification procedure that did not require machining any part of the case.  It also did (as I recall) have you completely remove the internal regulator.  So the process of conversion was different as I recall.  All accomplished with simple hand tools.  Perhaps Bob will chime in with his recommendation.  

Bevan    

_____________________________________________   

From:   owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)]  On Behalf Of ROGER &  JEAN CURTIS  

Sent:   Monday, April 02, 2012 12:12 PM  

To:     aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com  

Subject:        Converting to externally reg alternator   

Bevan,   

Was this not the information you were looking for??  

  

I have seen it but can't find it right now.  Can you point me to an  

instruction for converting an internally regulated alternator to external?   

Thanks    

Bevan   

Here is one at the EAA site which might help you. http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-09_howto_alternator.asp   

Roger      [quote][b]

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:59 pm Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator

FWIW.  I found this one in my files.  Hope it's useful.



Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN



"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine



On 04/02/2012 03:09 PM, B Tomm wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Yes but,



 I seem to recall a modification procedure that did not require machining

 any part of the case. It also did (as I recall) have you completely

 remove the internal regulator. So the process of conversion was

 different as I recall. All accomplished with simple hand tools. Perhaps

 Bob will chime in with his recommendation.



 Bevan



 _____________________________________________

 *From: * owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com

 [_mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com_] *On Behalf Of*

 ROGER & JEAN CURTIS



 *Sent: * Monday, April 02, 2012 12:12 PM

 *To: * aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 *Subject: * Converting to externally reg alternator



 Bevan,



 Was this not the information you were looking for??

 I have seen it but can't find it right now. Can you point me to an

 instruction for converting an internally regulated alternator to external?



 Thanks



 Bevan



 Here is one at the EAA site which might help you.

 _http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-09_howto_alternator.asp_



 Roger



 *

 *

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:01 pm Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator

At 03:09 PM 4/2/2012, you wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		   Yes but, 



 I seem to recall a modification procedure that did not require machining any part of the case.  It also did (as I recall) have you completely remove the internal regulator.  So the process of conversion was different as I recall.  All accomplished with simple hand tools.  Perhaps Bob will chime in with his recommendation.

 

 Bevan 	


  A successful mod has more to do with understanding the

  manner in which MOST internally regulated alternators

  are wired, deducing the precise mechanics that accomplish

  this in YOUR alternator of choice and then doing the

  minimum chop, hack and solder to achieve that end.



  Most commercial off-the-shelf alternators have one brush

  wired to a (+) source of power internal to the alternator.

  Identifying and isolating the (+) brush connection is key

  to the mod. 



  http://tinyurl.com/8a9uuns



  PlanePower no doubt breaks this connection and brings it to

  the outside world so that external power can be routed inside

  by way of a circuit breaker upstream of a crowbar ov module.



  In this case, they leave the (-) brush wired to the pull-down

  collector or drain of the built in regulator so that it can

  continue to function at what it does best.



  If you want to run a classic pull-up regulator with this

  alternator, then you permanently ground the (-) lead,

  you still bring the (+) lead out to the external regulator.

  Here's the 'rub' . . .



 [img]cid:.0[/img]



   Most if not all "regulators" are housed in some

   molded enclosure that includes brush holders. Identifying,

   exposing brush connections, making reliable connection to,

   and bringing leads out is not something one can write

   a detailed, step-by-step instruction for. I could

   probably mod about any alternator in 30 minutes but

   that's based on a good working knowledge of alternators

   in general. Take care that you do not alter the

   spring geometry that keeps the brush in contact

   with the slip rings at an optimized pressure for the

   design.



   I could write s-b-s instructions for any particular

   model and brand . . . but suppose YOUR model and brand

   is different?



   I'm fairly certain that a mod can be done to about

   any alternator without having to machine the case.

   It's been 20+ years now so I'm not sure I recall why

   the B&C mods DO machine the case. I think it's to

   effect a nice mechanical connection of the (-) brush

   with case ground using a spacer and screws. You don't

   have to go that route, wires work too.



   THEN . . . after slaying the (+) (-) brush problem,

   you need to decide what, if anything, is best to be

   done with the internal regulator. Simply isolated it

   and leave in place -OR- pry it out and put jumper

   wires in to take the brush holder wiring to the

   outside world through the stock terminals on the

   back of the alternator. I think you may find that

   alloys used to fabricate bond-wire tabs for the

   internal regulator's electronics assembly are not

   very solderable . . . at least with our favorite 63/37

   electronic grade stuff.



   It has been suggested that the reason I don't offer

   instructions for such mods on aeroelectric.com is

   because I'm protecting a friend's market for modified

   alternators. In fact, any article offered by me on anyone

   else will be specific to one series of alternator of one brand.



   I have oft suggested over the years that local alternator

   shops could probably mod about any alternator you would

   bring in the door. It's their business to have practical

   knowledge of MANY alternators . . . which is beyond the

   'scope of what I want to spend time on. If you study

   and understand the alternator you have in hand, the

   chances are you'll craft your own successful mod. But

   just as weeks were spent fine-tuning the B&C offering

   in search of the elegant solution, you'll spend a

   significant amount of time doing yours for the first time

   as well.



   A great opportunity to learn something. If anyone

   carries out a successful mod and bothers to photograph

   the various steps, I'd be pleased to publish the

   sequence on aeroelectric.com  



   Be sure to identify the 'victim' . . . preferably

   by Lester number. This will greatly increase chances

   of your efforts being useful to others.

   



 



 

   Bob . . .

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:35 pm Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Here is one at the EAA site which might help you.    http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-09_howto_alternator.asp  



 Roger 	


   This appears to be a mod on a ND alternator. The guts

   exposed in these pictures are familiar to me. You can

   probably accomplish the job without a milling machine

   or lathe but some judicious sculpting with a Dremel motor

   and cut-off wheel will speed the process up a bunch.



 

 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:38 pm Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator

Yes but, 

		I seem to recall a modification procedure that did not

require machining any part of the case.  It also did (as I recall) have you

completely remove the internal regulator.  So the process of conversion was

different as I recall.  All accomplished with simple hand tools.  Perhaps

Bob will chime in with his recommendation.



				See attached!  Is this, perhaps the one you

are looking for?

				Roger

winmail.dat

Description:

Download

Filename:

winmail.dat

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1.08 MB

Downloaded:

732 Time(s)

fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:19 pm Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator

Thanks Roger,   

That's what I was looking for.   

Bevan   

_____________________________________________   

From:   owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)]  On Behalf Of ROGER &  JEAN CURTIS  

Sent:   Monday, April 02, 2012 4:11 PM  

To:     aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com  

Subject:        Converting to externally reg alternator  

 

  

Yes but,   

I seem to recall a modification procedure that did not require machining any part of the case.  It also did (as I recall) have you completely remove the internal regulator.  So the process of conversion was different as I recall.  All accomplished with simple hand tools.  Perhaps Bob will chime in with his recommendation.  

See attached!  Is this, perhaps the one you are looking for?  

  

Roger << File: Alternator Ext. Reg..pdf >>       [quote][b]

eschlanser

Joined: 08 Apr 2010
Posts: 60

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator

Roger or forum users, 

 I cannot seem to open the attachment. It appears on my screen as a winmail.dat file rather than an adobe pdf or other file that my computer can open. I am seeing the file in the aeroelectric forum at the matronics lists.

Thanks for any help, 

 Eric 



 	  mrspudandcompany(at)veriz wrote: 	
		  Yes but, 

		I seem to recall a modification procedure that did not

require machining any part of the case.  It also did (as I recall) have you

completely remove the internal regulator.  So the process of conversion was

different as I recall.  All accomplished with simple hand tools.  Perhaps

Bob will chime in with his recommendation.



				See attached!  Is this, perhaps the one you

are looking for?

				Roger

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