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Surging engine: CJ6A - HS6A

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pnicholson

Joined: 04 Jun 2011
Posts: 46

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:14 pm Post subject: Surging engine: CJ6A - HS6A

In straight and level flight (6000ft, 1900RPM, temps near zero C)

I had sudden and 'dramatic' engine surging.  The surge dropped from 1900RPM to 1500/1600 RPM and back up to 1900, then repeated. (Pretty scary)   

I "richened" the mixture and the surging stopped, but I had to pull the mixture full aft to get rid of the surging.  I was able to repeat this on the subsequent flight.  

The only other obvious issue I am having is a (new) rhythmic puff of white smoke on the starboard side - not sure if it is related.  

A previous issue was engine roughness on deceleration in the circuit which is still there but somewhat managed by RPM increases decreases as I pull back on the throttle. 



Any thoughts on where to begin the search?



Thanks,

Phil



C-FEPN

(Ontario)

javiercarrascob

Joined: 06 Sep 2009
Posts: 62
Location: Virginia

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:40 pm Post subject: Surging engine: CJ6A - HS6A

What are your Cyl. and Oil Temps when this happens?



--- On Tue, 4/10/12, pnicholson <pednicholson(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

From: pnicholson <pednicholson(at)gmail.com>

Subject: Surging engine: CJ6A - HS6A

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, April 10, 2012, 8:14 PM



--> Yak-List message posted by: "pnicholson" <[url=/mc/compose?to=pednicholson(at)gmail.com]pednicholson(at)gmail.com[/url]>



In straight and level flight (6000ft, 1900RPM, temps near zero C)

I had sudden and 'dramatic' engine surging.  The surge dropped from 1900RPM to 1500/1600 RPM and back up to 1900, then repeated. (Pretty scary)  [Shocked] 

I  "richened" the mixture and the surging stopped, but I had to pull the mixture full aft to get rid of the surging.  I was able to repeat this on the subsequent flight.  

The only other obvious issue I am having is a (new) rhythmic puff of white smoke on the starboard side - not sure if it is related.  

A previous issue was engine roughness on deceleration in the circuit which is still there but somewhat managed by RPM increases decreases as I pull back on the throttle. 



Any thoughts on where to begin the search?



Thanks,

Phil



C-FEPN

(Ontario)





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 [quote][b]

ldakos(at)bigpond.net.au
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:43 pm Post subject: Surging engine: CJ6A - HS6A

G'Day Phil

I had a similar incident with my Cj when I landed I found a cracked intake

tube on one of the lower cylinder tubes where the oil drains screw in, it

had broken completely out, on inspection the other two had started to go the

same way, the engine had only done about 45 hrs at the time, I think the

extra weight of drain valves hanging and shaking on very thin metal is not a

real good idea.



Regards Lou

hess737(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:50 pm Post subject: Surging engine: CJ6A - HS6A

I had a similar roughness from a sticky exhaust at lower RPM. Ive seen short but dramatic roughness and loss of RPM at crz from a bad coil. Never had a mixture issue per se. Good luck.



Rich



Sent from my Motorola Smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!

-----Original message-----

[quote]From: pnicholson <pednicholson(at)gmail.com>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tue, Apr 10, 2012 20:16:48 EDT

Subject: Yak-List: Surging engine: CJ6A - HS6A

k7wx

Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 117

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:15 pm Post subject: Surging engine: CJ6A - HS6A

Hello Phil,



May seem like a funny question, but is it a good idea to keep flying when the engine is acting up and it's unclear as to why? One of these times it may simply quit. It might be a better idea to limit flights to orbiting over the airport until this can be sorted out. 



Warren Hill

N464TW

 

On Apr 10, 2012, at 5:38 PM, Javier Carrasco wrote:

[quote]What are your Cyl. and Oil Temps when this happens?



--- On Tue, 4/10/12, pnicholson <pednicholson(at)gmail.com (pednicholson(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

From: pnicholson <pednicholson(at)gmail.com (pednicholson(at)gmail.com)>

Subject: Surging engine: CJ6A - HS6A

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

Date: Tuesday, April 10, 2012, 8:14 PM



--> Yak-List message posted by: "pnicholson" <[url=x-msg://16/mc/compose?to=pednicholson(at)gmail.com]pednicholson(at)gmail.com[/url]>



In straight and level flight (6000ft, 1900RPM, temps near zero C)

I had sudden and 'dramatic' engine surging.  The surge dropped from 1900RPM to 1500/1600 RPM and back up to 1900, then repeated. (Pretty scary)  [Shocked] 

I  "richened" the mixture and the surging stopped, but I had to pull the mixture full aft to get rid of the surging.  I was able to repeat this on the subsequent flight.  

The only other obvious issue I am having is a (new) rhythmic puff of white smoke on the starboard side - not sure if it is related.  

A previous issue was engine roughness on deceleration in the circuit which is still there but somewhat managed by RPM increases decreases as I pull back on the throttle. 



Any thoughts on where to begin the search?



Thanks,

Phil



C-FEPN

(Ontario)





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370483#370483





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[b]

jackpot

Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Posts: 65
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:43 pm Post subject: Surging engine: CJ6A - HS6A

Phil, I had a some surging happen as you described several years ago when I still had the Housi engine in my CJ, I found a plug on the very top of the back side of the Carburetor had not been safety wired and it had unscrewed, almost to the point of falling out, it is in the top of a pressure chamber that controls the fuel flow in the pressure carb.



 The other surging problem I encountered was the seal around the wobble pump was bad and at a climb attitude, at altitude it was allowing air to be sucked in around the wobble pump shaft and the engine driven pump would loose suction because of the air in the fuel line, some surging and then no fuel pressure, engine quits,,     but the first  item to check is the plug on top of the Carb..   Good Luck...  Gary



--- On Tue, 4/10/12, Warren Hill  <k7wx(at)earthlink.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Warren Hill <k7wx(at)earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: Surging engine: CJ6A - HS6A

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, April 10, 2012, 6:12 PM



Hello Phil,



May seem like a funny question, but is it a good idea to keep flying when the engine is acting up and it's unclear as to why? One of these times it may simply quit. It might be a better idea to limit flights to orbiting over the airport until this can be sorted out. 



Warren Hill

N464TW

 

On Apr 10, 2012, at 5:38 PM, Javier Carrasco wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  What are your Cyl. and Oil Temps when this happens?



--- On Tue, 4/10/12, pnicholson <[url=/mc/compose?to=pednicholson(at)gmail.com]pednicholson(at)gmail.com[/url]> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

From: pnicholson <[url=/mc/compose?to=pednicholson(at)gmail.com]pednicholson(at)gmail.com[/url]>

Subject: Surging engine: CJ6A - HS6A

To: [url=/mc/compose?to=yak-list(at)matronics.com]yak-list(at)matronics.com[/url]

Date: Tuesday, April 10, 2012, 8:14 PM



--> Yak-List message posted by: "pnicholson" <pednicholson(at)gmail.com>



In straight and level flight (6000ft, 1900RPM, temps near zero C)

I had sudden and 'dramatic' engine surging.  The surge dropped from 1900RPM to 1500/1600 RPM and back up to 1900, then repeated. (Pretty scary)  [Shocked] 

I  "richened" the mixture and the surging stopped, but I had to pull the mixture full aft to get rid of the surging.  I was able to repeat this on the subsequent flight.  

The only other obvious issue I am having is a (new) rhythmic puff of white smoke on the starboard side - not sure if it is related.  

A previous issue was engine roughness on deceleration in the circuit which is still there but somewhat managed by RPM increases decreases as I pull back on the throttle. 



Any thoughts on where to begin the search?



Thanks,

Phil



C-FEPN

(Ontario)





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370483#370483





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 [quote][b]

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:51 pm Post subject: Surging engine: CJ6A - HS6A

Phil,

All as stated, intake leaks, loose seals on the carb, cracked intake drain plug, cracked intake drain tubing connecting 

The three lower cylinders, loose intake collars both ends ( supercharger and cylinder), primer pump seal, fuel pump seal between the oil pump and the fuel pump. And finally the diaphragm in the carb. Also how old are your fuel lines. A fragment off 

The fuel line (flapper) can break off and partially to totally block the  finger screen filter in carb. 

This sounds like intake issues. I would stand her down until you sort this out.good luck. 

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Apr 10, 2012, at 8:40 PM, Gary Gabbard <ggg6(at)att.net (ggg6(at)att.net)> wrote:



[quote]Phil, I had a some surging happen as you described several years ago when I still had the Housi engine in my CJ, I found a plug on the very top of the back side of the Carburetor had not been safety wired and it had unscrewed, almost to the point of falling out, it is in the top of a pressure chamber that controls the fuel flow in the pressure carb.



 The other surging problem I encountered was the seal around the wobble pump was bad and at a climb attitude, at altitude it was allowing air to be sucked in around the wobble pump shaft and the engine driven pump would loose suction because of the air in the fuel line, some surging and then no fuel pressure, engine quits,,     but the first  item to check is the plug on top of the Carb..   Good Luck...  Gary



--- On Tue, 4/10/12, Warren Hill  <k7wx(at)earthlink.net (k7wx(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Warren Hill <k7wx(at)earthlink.net (k7wx(at)earthlink.net)>

Subject: Re: Yak-List: Surging engine: CJ6A - HS6A

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

Date: Tuesday, April 10, 2012, 6:12 PM



Hello Phil,



May seem like a funny question, but is it a good idea to keep flying when the engine is acting up and it's unclear as to why? One of these times it may simply quit. It might be a better idea to limit flights to orbiting over the airport until this can be sorted out. 



Warren Hill

N464TW

 

On Apr 10, 2012, at 5:38 PM, Javier Carrasco wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  What are your Cyl. and Oil Temps when this happens?



--- On Tue, 4/10/12, pnicholson <[url=/mc/compose?to=pednicholson(at)gmail.com]pednicholson(at)gmail.com[/url]> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

From: pnicholson <[url=/mc/compose?to=pednicholson(at)gmail.com]pednicholson(at)gmail.com[/url]>

Subject: Yak-List: Surging engine: CJ6A - HS6A

To: [url=/mc/compose?to=yak-list(at)matronics.com]yak-list(at)matronics.com[/url]

Date: Tuesday, April 10, 2012, 8:14 PM



--> Yak-List message posted by: "pnicholson" <pednicholson(at)gmail.com>



In straight and level flight (6000ft, 1900RPM, temps near zero C)

I had sudden and 'dramatic' engine surging.  The surge dropped from 1900RPM to 1500/1600 RPM and back up to 1900, then repeated. (Pretty scary)  [Shocked] 

I  "richened" the mixture and the surging stopped, but I had to pull the mixture full aft to get rid of the surging.  I was able to repeat this on the subsequent flight.  

The only other obvious issue I am having is a (new) rhythmic puff of white smoke on the starboard side - not sure if it is related.  

A previous issue was engine roughness on deceleration in the circuit which is still there but somewhat managed by RPM increases decreases as I pull back on the throttle. 



Any thoughts on where to begin the search?



Thanks,

Phil



C-FEPN

(Ontario)





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370483#370483





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[b]

pnicholson

Joined: 04 Jun 2011
Posts: 46

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:42 am Post subject: Re: Surging engine: CJ6A - HS6A

Thanks for the information so far gentlemen.

No fears, the plane has indeed been grounded.  

I don't have a ton of hours so having an engine acting up over a national park with nowhere to land didn't exactly make my day  

I'll start work on these suggestions and get back to you when I have diagnosed the problem.

Thanks again,

Phil

Pete Fowler

Joined: 07 Jul 2009
Posts: 76
Location: California

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Surging engine: CJ6A - HS6A

When the housai is too lean, it surges. High altitude lean surge is normal if it's over-leaned.

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:35 am Post subject: Surging engine: CJ6A - HS6A

On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 11:18 AM, Pete Fowler <pfdesign1(at)cox.net (pfdesign1(at)cox.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Yak-List message posted by: "Pete Fowler" <pfdesign1(at)cox.net (pfdesign1(at)cox.net)>

 

 When the housai is too lean, it surges. High altitude lean surge is normal if it's over-leaned.

	




I wasn't going to say anything but this has been my experience as well. I suspect it has to do with the carburetor mixture calibration changing at different air-flow rates. Recalibrating the carb on a flow bench would probably solve this problem and allow lean-of-peak operation. 

 



But I am not 100% positive that I am right. As I said, it requires the use of a flow bench to check.



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

 brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)



  [quote][b]

jetjockey

Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 31
Location: Granbury, Texas

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:31 am Post subject: Re: Surging engine: CJ6A - HS6A

I had this problem crop up intermittently several times over the last 10 or so years.  I could never isolate the cause nor find any common condition that could have been causing the surging, other than it seemed to happen more often than not on warmer days or when I had the gills fully closed.  I finally installed fire sleeve on my fuel lines and the problem has never recurred.  My theory is that the fuel was vaporizing in the line from the filter to the fuel pump since turning on my electric boost pump always made the surging go away immediately.  Fire sleeving the engine hoses isn't a bad idea regardless...



Ray

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