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kinnepix(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:26 am Post subject: q

John H gave us this good (as usual) advice --



 	  Quote: 	
		   One of my pretakeoff checks is to wipe out the cockpit with the stick,

 lower and raise the flaps, and insure the rudder pedals are clear.

 Takes a lot out of the chance out of leaving a control locked prior to

 takeoff.

 "All controls free and clear."

 john h


	


also a good idea to run the controls to the stops just before pushing  

throttle forward for takeoff. Years ago at LGA a DC-9 (?) crashed  

because a rock had blown into the elevator-hinge when the pilot ran  

up his engines; locked the elevators & killed 61 (?) people --

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:17 pm Post subject: q

Years ago at LGA a DC-9 (?) crashed

because a rock had blown into the elevator-hinge when the pilot ran

up his engines; locked the elevators >>



Hi Russ,



What are the odds of that happening again? If we all operated on the basis 

of all those million to one chances we would all stay in bed.

That kind of thinking is being pushed by the hundreds of Health and Safety 

Inspectors that swarm over the country wasting every ones time trying to 

guard against zillion to one risks.

My village recreation field has goal posts permanently set up for the use of 

the local team. Since time began there have been hooks screwed to the back 

of the posts to which the groundsman can easily attach the net. The Health 

and Safety guys have just ordered that the hooks must be replaced with 

closed loops `beacause the goal keeper might catch his finger in a hook`. 

There has never been a case of a goal keeper getting his finger caught in 

the history of football, but `it COULD happen`



Likewise. We had an ex test pilot who kept his Tiger Moth on my field. He 

would have his plane out, checking it when I arrived at the field. I would 

get out the Challenger, check it, fly for an hour, refuel and put it away. 

He would still be checking.

I am not quite sure what conclusion to draw. Was he safer than me? I dunno. 

The odds on either of us getting a rock stuck in the elevator are still 

about googleplex to one.



Cheers



Pat



do not archive 



--

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: q

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  



What are the odds of that happening again? If we all operated on the basis  of all those million to one chances we would all stay in bed.

That kind of thinking is being pushed by the hundreds of Health and Safety 



	




I totally agree, if you go through life worrying about those zillion to one chances, you will never do anything...  That is the worst fate I can immagine, not living life because of paranoia and fear.



In the end those "safety freaks" are not any safer than the rest of us, because many times the thing that gets you is something you never thought about.  



In flying being paranoid about is not good.   We all have a limited amount of attention and mental capability, we are better off concentrating on known risks and dealing with them.   When you get some nut that worries about far out things that are never going to happen, that is the guy that will miss something that is a real danger and kill himself...

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

edchmiel(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject: q

Hi Pat/Russ/All,



        That very accident is why I and many other pilots I know do repeated 

control checks, right to the stops (no 'wigglin').  Can't be too careful 

when leaving the ground.

        I read that an aviation writer, may have been Bob Buck, witnessed 

the accident at the end of a trip.  IIRC, the crew was repositioning (5 or 6 

killed?).



Ed in JXN(MI)

MkII/503



Do not archive.



---

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: q

 	  edchmiel(at)mindspring.co wrote: 	
		  



That very accident is why I and many other pilots I know do repeated 

control checks, right to the stops (no 'wigglin').  Can't be too careful 

when leaving the ground.



	




The procedure in the airlines is for each pilot to do one control check before takeoff.  All the control checks in the world will not help you if a rock gets thrown into the elevator on takeoff.  If you get a guy that is so paranoid about the controls that he is constantly checking it, repeated times before takeoff, he will probably forget something else just as important such as setting the flaps, the trim, or a million other things that need his attention.  Being paranoid about any item to the point of distraction is just plain bad.



Michael A. Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

edchmiel(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:37 pm Post subject: q

Hi Mike,



        Not to get in a yellow discharge contest, but none of my many 

airline buds are 'limited' to one control check.  They're not that rigid in 

their ops.  If one has the time, no reason not to recheck things.  How many 

retractable-gear drivers were 'sure' their gear was down when they in fact 

forgot?  I agree strange things can happen, and I see no problem in a quick 

recheck.  I know guys who are truly paranoid, and they're no fun to work 

with.  I don't see how such a recheck is 'paranoia'.



Ed in JXN

MkII/503



Do not archive.



---

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:19 am Post subject: q

do repeated control checks, right to the stops ...>>



Hi,

don`t get me wrong, so do I, and check that the right aileron comes down 

when I put the stick left but that is more to check against the possibility 

of cross connected cables or some animal hibernating in the `works` 

somewhere than the incredibly remote chance of a rock in the elevator.



Mind you I carry a bag of salt so that I can throw some over my 

shoulder.....



Cheers



Pat 



--

kinnepix(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:48 am Post subject: q

It was at LGA, there were I think 61 killed. I  knew one of them  

slightly.

do not archive



On Jan 13, 2006, at 8:55 PM, Ed Chmielewski wrote:



[quote] 

 <edchmiel(at)mindspring.com>



 Hi Pat/Russ/All,



         That very accident is why I and many other pilots I know do  

 repeated

 control checks, right to the stops (no 'wigglin').  Can't be too  

 careful

 when leaving the ground.

         I read that an aviation writer, may have been Bob Buck,  

 witnessed

 the accident at the end of a trip.  IIRC, the crew was  

 repositioning (5 or 6

 killed?).



 Ed in JXN(MI)

 MkII/503



 Do not archive.



 ---

kinnepix(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:50 am Post subject: q

Not to start a long discussion but the rock got in during engine  

runup, not takeoff roll. A last-minute controls check is not

  "being paranoid" and would have saved 61 lives. IMHO it's just good  

common sense.

do not archive



On Jan 13, 2006, at 9:46 PM, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 edchmiel(at)mindspring.co wrote:

> That very accident is why I and many other pilots I know do repeated

> control checks, right to the stops (no 'wigglin').  Can't be too  

> careful

> when leaving the ground.

 The procedure in the airlines is for each pilot to do one control  

 check before takeoff.  All the control checks in the world will not  

 help you if a rock gets thrown into the elevator on takeoff.  If  

 you get a guy that is so paranoid about the controls that he is  

 constantly checking it, repeated times before takeoff, he will  

 probably forget something just as important such as setting the  

 flaps, the trim, or a million other things that need his  

 attention.  Being paranoid about any item to the point of  

 distraction is just plain bad.



 Michael A. Bigelow



 --------

 NO FEAR -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could  

 have !!!





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3816#3816

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:10 am Post subject: q

I not only do a full range to stop check on the controls but also note

which direction they go.  True it would be pretty hard to reverse the

aileron rods on a Kolb.  -Reason for my "paranoia"  was several years

ago asking about the wrecked Cessna 195 out back of an airport

maint shack.  The aileron control wires had been done backwards

and the pilot did a slow roll on takeoff.

Replaying what that guy must have experienced in my mind never

left me.

-BB  do not archive

On 14, Jan 2006, at 2:37 AM, Ed Chmielewski wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <edchmiel(at)mindspring.com>

 =========================

rsanoa

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 71
Location: Bell Buckle,TN

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:26 am Post subject: q

During WW2 I saw a C48 on take off, towing two troop gliders, nose up, way up, as the wheels just left the ground. Had left the gust lock on the elevators. Nosed back down and exploded. Not a pretty sight. A simple back and forth check of the controls would have caught it. 

  Ray ....Tenn.

  UltraStar

  Do not archive



russ kinne <kinnepix(at)earthlink.net> wrote:

  



It was at LGA, there were I think 61 killed. I knew one of them 

slightly.

do not archive



On Jan 13, 2006, at 8:55 PM, Ed Chmielewski wrote:



[quote] 

 



 Hi Pat/Russ/All,



 That very accident is why I and many other pilots I know do 

 repeated

 control checks, right to the stops (no 'wigglin'). Can't be too 

 careful

 when leaving the ground.

 I read that an aviation writer, may have been Bob Buck, 

 witnessed

 the accident at the end of a trip. IIRC, the crew was 

 repositioning (5 or 6

 killed?).



 Ed in JXN(MI)

 MkII/503



 Do not archive.



 ---

_________________
Ray S.Anderson

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:30 am Post subject: Re: q

Im not at all familiar with the accident you guys are talking about.  I would be interested to read a report on it though if anyone knows what year, or what airline it happened to so I can search for it on google.



There is no engine runup on jet airliners before takeoff, no airline does it.  Running up an engine on a commercial airliner is so hazardous, that you need to get special permission from the tower to do it, as it could cause major damage to any other airplane behind you.  It also causes great stress on the airplane, and repeated runups with the brakes applied is more likely to cause failures and accidents then it would ever prevent.   On a DC 9, the tail is far above and almost over the engine exaust, there is just no way engine thrust is just not going to blow a rock into it.  If one did get in there, I would think it would have to be on takeoff roll.  What does throw things into the tail and engines on the DC 9 are the main gear, and nosewheels when the plane is going fast.

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

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