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Battery only time -Z-19RB clarification

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Ed Anderson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 475

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:36 am Post subject: Battery only time -Z-19RB clarification

Personal experience with a Odyssey PC 680 (one).  Apparently hit an 

electrical switch with my foot at refueling stop which removed the 

alternator feed from my battery.  I had two EFI fuel pumps running plus 

electronic fuel injectors (4) and dual ignition and normal comm/nav gear on.



About 40 minutes after take off, engine started to miss which condition then 

gradually deteriorated - I misdiagnosed the problem as being related to fuel 

feed and failed to notice decreasing battery voltage (have one volt meter 

that I switch between battery and alternator feeds).  The voltmeter was set 

to monitor the alternator (which was working fine by the way) and the 

voltage remained at 13.8 volts until engine stoppage at 45 minutes and 5 

miles out from Selma Al.



Deadsticked it to a safe airport landing and later discovered battery 

voltage was down to six volts - switch in wrong position precluded 

alternator power from feeding the battery - yes, design flaw! - since 

corrected.  Initially, during design phase, I was concerned about a "run 

away alternator" causing the battery (inside the cockpit) to possibly 

boil/explode.  Have a auto alternator so pulling the field coil CB after it 

has bootstrapped does no good - alternator keeps on producing - so I decided 

a switch to isolate alternator and battery might be smart.  In hindsight, 

the odds of that condition happened were much less than the switch designed 

to prevent being accidently mis-positioned {:<(.



But, my point is that my PC680 did a good job for longer than I would have 

expected.  So I feel I have a reasonably reliable 30 minutes after 

encountering  such a problem to making it to the airport for a safe landing. 

Had the battery been fully charged - it never charged after engine start and 

that drain due to the switch position - I think 5-10 minutes more might have 

been achieved.  However, in hind sight that would have just placed me 

further from the airport.  Clearly useful time depends on battery condition 

and load.



  The key, of course, is early indication/recognition of the problem.  No my 

yellow low voltage light never came on - because the alternator never 

stopped producing  voltage.



FWIW



Ed



Edward L. Anderson

Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC

305 Reefton Road

Weddington, NC 28104

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.eicommander.com





--------------------------------------------------

From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2012 8:11 PM

To: <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Z-19RB clarification



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>



 At 09:52 PM 7/4/2012, you wrote:

 

 <afulmer(at)charter.net>



 Roger,

 I am using Z-19RB in my Subaru H6 powered RV7.  My understanding as to why

 the endurance bus alternate feed is from the Main Battery only is that the

 engine bus and its battery are reserved for the running of the engine 

 alone

 just as long as possible.  I guess if you lose the main battery and thus 

 the

 endurance bus then you can still fly the airplane to a safe landing site 

 as

 long as the engine is running.  Whereas, if you lose the engine 

 battery/bus

 the endurance bus is not going to do you any good as you glide to a 

 landing.



 I am sure Bob will chime in with a more elegant explanation.



    During normal operations, BOTH batteries are on

    line and behave as a single battery equal to their

    combined capacity.



    When the low volts warning light comes on, all you

    have to finish the flight is what ever is carried

    in the two batteries.



    At that point in time you drop to the ENDURANCE MODE.

    Run no piece of equipment that is not necessary for

    a no-sweat return to earth.



    Repeat after me: "I will KNOW what the capacity of

    my batteries is at all times by which I will KNOW

    what my endurance limits are in alternator-out

    conditions." This usually calls for getting the

    battery contactors out of the picture . . . turning

    off both battery switches, running the engine from

    the engine battery and minimum electro-whizzies on

    the endurance bus. Once you have the airport in sight

    and are cleared to land, you can turn the main battery

    back on and use what ever is left to make a grander

    entrance . . . but the idea is that you've kept

    the engine's power source fire-walled off in a

    separate energy bucket.



    Now, if you want to add a second failure to this

    scenario, then BOTH battery switches are placed to

    ON and you begin moves to expedite landing while

    watching bus voltage readings. When it gets down

    to 10.5 volts, your on-board battery energy is

    more than 95% used up. You need to be on short

    final before that time.



    Being able to switch the engine from one battery

    to the other is a hedge against contactor failure

    stacked on top of other failures . . . a statistical

    tiny dot on the great horizon of possibilities for

    one failure.

   Bob . . .

 -----

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 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

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_________________
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com

james(at)etravel.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:37 am Post subject: Battery only time -Z-19RB clarification

Ed, 



That's an interesting tale about the extra switch & the voltmeter.  Glad you got back okay to tell it.  

James



On 6 July 2012 12:35, Ed Anderson <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com (eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com (eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com)>

  

 Personal experience with a Odyssey PC 680 (one).  Apparently hit an electrical switch with my foot at refueling stop which removed the alternator feed from my battery.  I had two EFI fuel pumps running plus electronic fuel injectors (4) and dual ignition and normal comm/nav gear on.

  

 About 40 minutes after take off, engine started to miss which condition then gradually deteriorated - I misdiagnosed the problem as being related to fuel feed and failed to notice decreasing battery voltage (have one volt meter that I switch between battery and alternator feeds).  The voltmeter was set to monitor the alternator (which was working fine by the way) and the voltage remained at 13.8 volts until engine stoppage at 45 minutes and 5 miles out from Selma Al.

  

 Deadsticked it to a safe airport landing and later discovered battery voltage was down to six volts - switch in wrong position precluded alternator power from feeding the battery - yes, design flaw! - since corrected.  Initially, during design phase, I was concerned about a "run away alternator" causing the battery (inside the cockpit) to possibly boil/explode.  Have a auto alternator so pulling the field coil CB after it has bootstrapped does no good - alternator keeps on producing - so I decided a switch to isolate alternator and battery might be smart.  In hindsight, the odds of that condition happened were much less than the switch designed to prevent being accidently mis-positioned {:<(.

  

 But, my point is that my PC680 did a good job for longer than I would have expected.  So I feel I have a reasonably reliable 30 minutes after encountering  such a problem to making it to the airport for a safe landing. Had the battery been fully charged - it never charged after engine start and that drain due to the switch position - I think 5-10 minutes more might have been achieved.  However, in hind sight that would have just placed me further from the airport.  Clearly useful time depends on battery condition and load.

  

  The key, of course, is early indication/recognition of the problem.  No my yellow low voltage light never came on - because the alternator never stopped producing  voltage.

 

 FWIW

 

 Ed

 

 Edward L. Anderson

 Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC

 305 Reefton Road

 Weddington, NC 28104

 http://www.andersonee.com

 http://www.eicommander.com

 

 

 

 

 --------------------------------------------------

 From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>

 Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2012 8:11 PM

 To: <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)>

 Subject: RE: Z-19RB clarification

 

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>

 

 At 09:52 PM 7/4/2012, you wrote:

 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Allen Fulmer" <afulmer(at)charter.net (afulmer(at)charter.net)>

 

 Roger,

 I am using Z-19RB in my Subaru H6 powered RV7.  My understanding as to why

 the endurance bus alternate feed is from the Main Battery only is that the

 engine bus and its battery are reserved for the running of the engine alone

 just as long as possible.  I guess if you lose the main battery and thus the

 endurance bus then you can still fly the airplane to a safe landing site as

 long as the engine is running.  Whereas, if you lose the engine battery/bus

 the endurance bus is not going to do you any good as you glide to a landing.

 

 I am sure Bob will chime in with a more elegant explanation.

 

    During normal operations, BOTH batteries are on

    line and behave as a single battery equal to their

    combined capacity.

 

    When the low volts warning light comes on, all you

    have to finish the flight is what ever is carried

    in the two batteries.

 

    At that point in time you drop to the ENDURANCE MODE.

    Run no piece of equipment that is not necessary for

    a no-sweat return to earth.

 

    Repeat after me: "I will KNOW what the capacity of

    my batteries is at all times by which I will KNOW

    what my endurance limits are in alternator-out

    conditions." This usually calls for getting the

    battery contactors out of the picture . . . turning

    off both battery switches, running the engine from

    the engine battery and minimum electro-whizzies on

    the endurance bus. Once you have the airport in sight

    and are cleared to land, you can turn the main battery

    back on and use what ever is left to make a grander

    entrance . . . but the idea is that you've kept

    the engine's power source fire-walled off in a

    separate energy bucket.

 

    Now, if you want to add a second failure to this

    scenario, then BOTH battery switches are placed to

    ON and you begin moves to expedite landing while

    watching bus voltage readings. When it gets down

    to 10.5 volts, your on-board battery energy is

    more than 95% used up. You need to be on short

    final before that time.

 

    Being able to switch the engine from one battery

    to the other is a hedge against contactor failure

    stacked on top of other failures . . . a statistical

    tiny dot on the great horizon of possibilities for

    one failure.

 

 

   Bob . . .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 -----

 No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

 

 	
 

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:46 am Post subject: Battery only time -Z-19RB clarification

 	  Quote: 	
		  

  The key, of course, is early indication/recognition of the 

 problem.  No my yellow low voltage light never came on - because 

 the alternator never stopped producing  voltage.



FWIW



Ed


	


   I'm pleased that your experience had a happy ending.

   An obstacle to be overcome in the OBAM aviation

   community is information and collaboration. When you

   work for a 60+ year old company of 6,000 plus employees

   and 800 engineers, there is a wealth of history to

   call on for things that work well and things that don't

   work well.



   We are acutely aware of this shortcoming in OBAM aviation

   which tends to drive low risk worries into actions that create

   more risk than they fix. EAA was the first real big

   leap into a collaboration for sharing information.

   In years since, the Internet has offered still greater

   coverage with convenience.



   But the tendencies to over-think a problem are still

   there. The most powerful prophylactic against the

   unintended consequences that raise risk is collaboration.

   Thank you for sharing your experience with the List.



   Bob . . .

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Ed Anderson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 475

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:45 am Post subject: Battery only time -Z-19RB clarification

I certainly agree, Bob.  A clear case of a where my design focused on a very 

low probability occurrence (boiling battery)  ending up almost assuring that 

at some point that switch would get in the incorrect position and cause a 

problem.



In fact, has anybody on the list EVER experienced or have first hand 

knowledge of someone who had a battery boil/overheat due to run away (over 

voltage) alternator??



Ed



--------------------------------------------------

From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

Sent: Friday, July 06, 2012 9:45 AM

To: <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Battery only time -Z-19RB clarification



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

>

>  The key, of course, is early indication/recognition of the problem.  No 

> my yellow low voltage light never came on - because the alternator never 

> stopped producing  voltage.

>

>FWIW

>

>Ed



   I'm pleased that your experience had a happy ending.

   An obstacle to be overcome in the OBAM aviation

   community is information and collaboration. When you

   work for a 60+ year old company of 6,000 plus employees

   and 800 engineers, there is a wealth of history to

   call on for things that work well and things that don't

   work well.



   We are acutely aware of this shortcoming in OBAM aviation

   which tends to drive low risk worries into actions that create

   more risk than they fix. EAA was the first real big

   leap into a collaboration for sharing information.

   In years since, the Internet has offered still greater

   coverage with convenience.



   But the tendencies to over-think a problem are still

   there. The most powerful prophylactic against the

   unintended consequences that raise risk is collaboration.

   Thank you for sharing your experience with the List.



   Bob . . .

 -----

 No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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_________________
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com

Ed Anderson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 475

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:08 am Post subject: Battery only time -Z-19RB clarification

Thanks, James  - always willing to share my  experience (no matter how embarrassing) in view it could save someone else from  the same experience.

  

 One thing I didn't mention was when about 5 miles out with  prop stopped, I was thinking at least everything is working but the engine, the  panel lights were still on and the radio, so got on the radio to let traffic  know I was coming in without engine power.  I made one call when there was  an ominous "clack" ( would have never hear it with the engine running) - all  panel lights go dead as well as the radio - now it was really lonesome up  there.  

  

 I later realized that when the battery voltage dropped  below sustaining level - the master relay contactor (powered by the battery)   released and even the alternator power that had been feeding the panel  through that contactor went south. (another design flaw!).

  

 But,  with no further distractions, I could now  concentrate on making sure I didn't screw up this deadstick  landing.   To show you how distracted I had been, it wasn't until I  hit pattern altitude on down wind that the sudden realization hit - that I there  was not going to be any maintaining altitude to make that nice base turn at  my opinion someplace on downwind.

  

  I  Immediately initiated the base turn, then  found myself wanting to tighten up the turn (was a little close in on downwind -  guess you could say I was "hugging" the runway  - the comfort  factor{:>))   Then a little voice warning about the "Coffin  corner turn on base" made me look at my airspeed in the turn and it was  down to 80 mph and rate of descent up to 1000 fpm.  I decided I would  rather land in the grass (overshooting my turn) than dig a hole in the  concrete), so I loosened up my turn and lowered the nose to pick up airspeed  (hard to do with the ground staring me in the face). But, luck or whatever,  it all came together in the last 100 ft or so.   Flared to a perfect  landing on the runway, rolled to the end of the runway and made the turn off to  the taxiway coming to a welcomed stop.

  

 So I think its just as important to know when to stop  worrying the technical problem and start worrying about your butt and  concentrate on the flying{:>)

  

 Ed

 

 

   From: James Kilford (james(at)etravel.org) 

 Sent: Friday, July 06, 2012 9:36 AM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)  

 Subject: Re: Battery only time -Z-19RB  clarification

 



 Ed,   



 That's an interesting tale about the extra switch & the voltmeter.   Glad you got back okay to tell it.  

 



 James



 On 6 July 2012 12:35, Ed Anderson <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com (eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson"    <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com (eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com)>



Personal experience    with a Odyssey PC 680 (one).  Apparently hit an electrical switch with my    foot at refueling stop which removed the alternator feed from my battery.     I had two EFI fuel pumps running plus electronic fuel injectors (4) and    dual ignition and normal comm/nav gear on.



About 40 minutes after take    off, engine started to miss which condition then gradually deteriorated - I    misdiagnosed the problem as being related to fuel feed and failed to notice    decreasing battery voltage (have one volt meter that I switch between battery    and alternator feeds).  The voltmeter was set to monitor the alternator    (which was working fine by the way) and the voltage remained at 13.8 volts    until engine stoppage at 45 minutes and 5 miles out from Selma    Al.



Deadsticked it to a safe airport landing and later discovered    battery voltage was down to six volts - switch in wrong position precluded    alternator power from feeding the battery - yes, design flaw! - since    corrected.  Initially, during design phase, I was concerned about a "run    away alternator" causing the battery (inside the cockpit) to possibly    boil/explode.  Have a auto alternator so pulling the field coil CB after    it has bootstrapped does no good - alternator keeps on producing - so I    decided a switch to isolate alternator and battery might be smart.  In    hindsight, the odds of that condition happened were much less than the switch    designed to prevent being accidently mis-positioned {:<(.



But, my    point is that my PC680 did a good job for longer than I would have expected.     So I feel I have a reasonably reliable 30 minutes after encountering     such a problem to making it to the airport for a safe landing. Had the    battery been fully charged - it never charged after engine start and that    drain due to the switch position - I think 5-10 minutes more might have been    achieved.  However, in hind sight that would have just placed me further    from the airport.  Clearly useful time depends on battery condition and    load.



 The key, of course, is early indication/recognition of the    problem.  No my yellow low voltage light never came on - because the    alternator never stopped producing     voltage.



FWIW



Ed



Edward L. Anderson

Anderson    Electronic Enterprises LLC

305 Reefton Road

Weddington, NC 28104

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.eicommander.com





--------------------------------------------------

From:    "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>

Sent: Thursday,    July 05, 2012 8:11 PM

To: <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)>

Subject: RE:    Z-19RB clarification



    	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L.      Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>



At 09:52      PM 7/4/2012, you wrote:

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by:      "Allen Fulmer" <afulmer(at)charter.net (afulmer(at)charter.net)>



Roger,

I am using Z-19RB      in my Subaru H6 powered RV7.  My understanding as to why

the      endurance bus alternate feed is from the Main Battery only is that      the

engine bus and its battery are reserved for the running of the engine      alone

just as long as possible.  I guess if you lose the main      battery and thus the

endurance bus then you can still fly the airplane to      a safe landing site as

long as the engine is running.  Whereas, if      you lose the engine battery/bus

the endurance bus is not going to do you      any good as you glide to a landing.



I am sure Bob will chime in with      a more elegant explanation.



   During normal operations,      BOTH batteries are on

   line and behave as a single battery      equal to their

   combined capacity.



   When      the low volts warning light comes on, all you

   have to finish      the flight is what ever is carried

   in the two      batteries.



   At that point in time you drop to the      ENDURANCE MODE.

   Run no piece of equipment that is not      necessary for

   a no-sweat return to earth.



        Repeat after me: "I will KNOW what the capacity of

   my      batteries is at all times by which I will KNOW

   what my      endurance limits are in alternator-out

   conditions." This      usually calls for getting the

   battery contactors out of the      picture . . . turning

   off both battery switches, running the      engine from

   the engine battery and minimum electro-whizzies      on

   the endurance bus. Once you have the airport in      sight

   and are cleared to land, you can turn the main      battery

   back on and use what ever is left to make a      grander

   entrance . . . but the idea is that you've      kept

   the engine's power source fire-walled off in      a

   separate energy bucket.



   Now, if you      want to add a second failure to this

   scenario, then BOTH      battery switches are placed to

   ON and you begin moves to      expedite landing while

   watching bus voltage readings. When      it gets down

   to 10.5 volts, your on-board battery energy      is

   more than 95% used up. You need to be on short

        final before that time.



   Being able to switch the      engine from one battery

   to the other is a hedge against      contactor failure

   stacked on top of other failures . . . a      statistical

   tiny dot on the great horizon of possibilities      for

   one failure.

  Bob . .      .

-----

No virus found in this      message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com



	


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No virus found in this  message.

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Version: 2012.0.2195 / Virus  Database: 2437/5114 - Release Date: 07/06/12   [quote][b]

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_________________
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:31 pm Post subject: Battery only time -Z-19RB clarification

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 So I think its just as important to know when to stop worrying the technical problem and start worrying about your butt and concentrate on the flying{:>) 	
    What changes have you made to architecture, development of a Plan-B, and   for a preventative maintenance program to make sure your battery(ies)   are of known quantity?



 

    Bob . . .     [quote][b]

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