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West System Epoxy answer
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Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 1:31 pm Post subject: West System Epoxy answer

Friends, here is the answer from West System Epoxy:



------------------------------------------------------------------------ 

----

Methyl tertiary butyle ether, a gasoline additive and ethanol will  

disolve cured WEST SYSTEM epoxy.  We had great success builting fuel  

tanks with WEST SYSTEM until these were introduced.  We are  

investigating som ethanol-resistant coatings, but the testing is still  

being conducted.



Its a real problem as not only does the ethanol damage composite tanks  

but on older engines damages hoses, gaskets and can built up a varnish  

that can bind compoents resulting in bent push rods etc.

------------------------------------------------------------------------ 

-----



So, I guess this closes the discussion but ... makes us even more  

worried, doesn't it?



Cheers,

Michel

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 2:52 pm Post subject: West System Epoxy answer

Michel,

I guess you ruined my day.  Ethanol is coming to my area real fast.  I have 

heard that the super premium fuel will not contain Ethanol??  My West coated 

tanks might be toast.  Thank you Government, I'm so upset I might just 

refuse my next retirement check from them suckers.



Don Smythe



---

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: West System Epoxy answer

Anyone looked into the cost to have an aluminum tank fabricated?  I don't know the feasability of this but it done in many other aircraft.



Darin

wingsdown(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 3:34 pm Post subject: West System Epoxy answer

There has been discussion before. I believe SS stated wing flex as an

issue. I am sure that could be over come, maybe not cheap, but better

yet why not a fuel bladder for safety sake?



Rick



--

roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 9:19 pm Post subject: West System Epoxy answer

There was a fellow in Klammath falls Oregon who made Poly tanks for the 

undercambered wings. It was a limited run and may be gone now.  No one was 

interested at the time. Bet they would sell now.   I may still have his 

number.   Ron NB Ore

[quote]From: "wingsdown" <wingsdown(at)comcast.net>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Re: West System Epoxy answer

Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 16:33:31 -0700






There has been discussion before. I believe SS stated wing flex as an

issue. I am sure that could be over come, maybe not cheap, but better

yet why not a fuel bladder for safety sake?



Rick



--

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 12:02 am Post subject: West System Epoxy answer

Most aircraft wings flex or (helicopter) vibrate so plastic or  rubber are 

the way to go.~j~



From:  "wingsdown" <wingsdown(at)comcast.net>

Reply-To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To:  <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject:  RE: Re: West System Epoxy answer

Date:  Tue, 30 May 2006 16:33:31 -0700




There has been discussion before. I believe SS stated wing flex as an

issue. I am sure that could be over come, maybe not cheap, but better

yet why not a fuel bladder for safety sake?



Rick



--

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 3:50 am Post subject: West System Epoxy answer

I think finding an alternate material is much better than relying on 

coatings and sloshes. However retrofitting a new tank into a completed 

aircraft is a pretty big job and messy.  Another possible option is to use 

our existing tanks with a rubber (whatever) bladder.  One might be able to 

cut a hole in top of the existing tank (say, 1'X1') to gain access and 

remove all the existing baffles.  Use the same hole to install a bladder. 

Finish up with a new cover screwed on top to hide the hole.  Just a wild 

thought without much thinking?  This might be the best, least expensive, 

easiest, modification.

    Are there any bladder companies that can make custom fit products?

Don Smythe

---

mdps_mc(at)swoca.net
Guest

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 6:43 am Post subject: West System Epoxy answer

I was wondering why someone hasn't made a tank out of the same material that

the red plastic gas cans are made from.  I have a number of these plastic

cans at home and they seem to last forever.



I know there isn't a large market for tanks that fit in a Kitfox but a

generic cylinder shaped tank could fit in just about any wing.



Mike Chaney



--

blackcatmoan(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 7:48 am Post subject: West System Epoxy answer

Mike:



Smartest thing I've heard all week.

Sounds like the 'makings' of a small business...



Cheers,



Tony.



[quote]




I was wondering why someone hasn't made a tank out of the same material 

that

the red plastic gas cans are made from.  I have a number of these plastic

cans at home and they seem to last forever.



I know there isn't a large market for tanks that fit in a Kitfox but a

generic cylinder shaped tank could fit in just about any wing.



Mike Chaney



--

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 8:53 am Post subject: Re: West System Epoxy answer

Ok guys,  I am building my Fox now and have yet to install the tanks.  I would like to solve the problem of ethynol and the stock tanks before I build the wing obviously.  Short of dropping the $10k or more to fabricate a prototype tank from HDLPE or other compatible material, what is the best alternative?  We have not been hit by the ethynol bug yet but I am sure it is coming and would like to be ready when it comes. 



On the other hand, as one lister wrote...this may be a good opportunity for a small business, especially if one were to work a deal with John McBean and provide OEM tanks for the new Kitfox...sounds interesting.

bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 1:40 pm Post subject: West System Epoxy answer

Amen. Except don't limit us to the wings. I've considered a single fuselage

tank for a while now. Plenty of room behind the seat, and in the "baggage"

area. The feed problems of the wing tanks would disappear.



The only bad side is that I'm fundamentally opposed to fuel in the cabin. I

discounted the Mustang II long ago for this reason. But since in the Kitfox

you hit things at 30, as opposed to 70mph, it may be mitigated.



Wing folding and transportation becomes a non-issue, as well.



Put me in for one M2 fuselage tank, 15-20 gallon, please.



Bradley



--

roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject: West System Epoxy answer

Bradley Walmart has some nice boat tanks for that.  Ron NB Ore

[quote]From: "Bradley M Webb" <bmwebb(at)cox.net>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Re: West System Epoxy answer

Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 17:39:01 -0400

Amen. Except don't limit us to the wings. I've considered a single fuselage

tank for a while now. Plenty of room behind the seat, and in the "baggage"

area. The feed problems of the wing tanks would disappear.

The only bad side is that I'm fundamentally opposed to fuel in the cabin. I

discounted the Mustang II long ago for this reason. But since in the Kitfox

you hit things at 30, as opposed to 70mph, it may be mitigated.

Wing folding and transportation becomes a non-issue, as well.

Put me in for one M2 fuselage tank, 15-20 gallon, please.

Bradley

--

bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: West System Epoxy answer

Oh No! I won't have anything so...so...GOUCH in my airplane!



--

AMuller589(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject: West System Epoxy answer

Also Remember fuel in the cabin increases the wing loads more than fuel in  

the wings. The design gross weight moments were derived based on wing tanks  to 

reduce the wing bending loads. Not terribly significant unless you are flying 

 at high gross weights in air gusts greater than CAA (way back  

when).standards.

roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 2:49 pm Post subject: West System Epoxy answer

Ya also weights and balance would be a pain to behind the seat.

[quote]From: "Bradley M Webb" <bmwebb(at)cox.net>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Re: West System Epoxy answer

Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 18:28:08 -0400

Oh No! I won't have anything so...so...GOUCH in my airplane!

--

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 3:19 pm Post subject: West System Epoxy answer

Fues tank  Well, if you are going to do that, take a

look at the tanks in JEGS or other racing catalogs. 

They are foam filled for crash protection and come in

various sizes to fit your needs.  Dealing with how to

hook up the filler might slow you down a bit, but

otherwise a safer tank than any we have now.



Kurt S.  S-5



--- Bradley M Webb <bmwebb(at)cox.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Amen. Except don't limit us to the wings. I've

 considered a single fuselage tank for a while now.


	


__________________________________________________

bnn(at)nethere.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:23 pm Post subject: West System Epoxy answer

At 09:53 AM 5/31/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Short of dropping the $10k or more to fabricate a prototype tank from 

HDLPE or other compatible material, what is the best alternative?


	


I vote:



1) properly designed and fabricated aluminum tanks.



2) Properly designed and fabricated vinyl-ester tanks.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:42 am Post subject: West System Epoxy answer

Guy,

I just finished replacing the 2" tapes on my wing tops.  It wasn't fun and 

never turns our as good as the first cover job.  Replacing a tank could only 

be worse.  I would like to see a bladder replacement come on the market.  We 

have an old bladder in the hanger that came out of the Rich man's twin 

Comanche that's 35 years old (finally leaked).  New replacement was around 

$700.  Maybe we could have some made for way less than Piper's cost.  This 

might be a good project for Kitfox LLC to take on in their spare time. 

Ha....



Don Smythe



 	  Quote: 	
		   I vote:



 1) properly designed and fabricated aluminum tanks.



 2) Properly designed and fabricated vinyl-ester tanks.

 Guy Buchanan

 K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

Jim Shumaker

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 106

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:18 am Post subject: West System Epoxy answer

Don,

   

  I was at an EAA fly-in where a tank bladder dealer was showing.  The cost was about as for the Comanche or less and I may need to use that approach for my Aluminum tank that needs repair.

   

  Will keep you posted.

   

  Jim Shumaker



Don Smythe <dosmythe(at)cox.net> wrote:

  



Guy,

I just finished replacing the 2" tapes on my wing tops. It wasn't fun and 

never turns our as good as the first cover job. Replacing a tank could only 

be worse. I would like to see a bladder replacement come on the market. We 

have an old bladder in the hanger that came out of the Rich man's twin 

Comanche that's 35 years old (finally leaked). New replacement was around 

$700. Maybe we could have some made for way less than Piper's cost. This 

might be a good project for Kitfox LLC to take on in their spare time. 

Ha....



Don Smythe



 	  Quote: 	
		   I vote:



 1) properly designed and fabricated aluminum tanks.



 2) Properly designed and fabricated vinyl-ester tanks.

 Guy Buchanan

 K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Jim Shumaker

bnn(at)nethere.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:18 am Post subject: West System Epoxy answer

At 05:41 AM 6/3/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I would like to see a bladder replacement come on the market.


	


I don't know how you could do it with the baffles in the fiberglass tank. I 

suppose you could rip out the baffles, but my arms just aren't long or 

skinny enough to get in an sand out the rough edges. 

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

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