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weights and balances

 
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Flyinisfun(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:57 pm    Post subject: weights and balances Reply with quote
I am re-weighing my two place KIS -1 after moving the batteries forward by 30 inches. I feel I have been too near the rear CG and wanted more room at the rear. I would like to compare with you guys the following.

1. What are your empty weights and CG numbers?

2. Do you figure gross weight by using 170 lbs. per occupant or do you use the actual weight of the occupant?

3. How much gas are you leaving home with two 200 lb. bodies aboard and no luggage?

Jesse Wright
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bakerocb



Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:35 pm    Post subject: weights and balances Reply with quote
7/15/2012

Hello Jesse, I think that the attached spread sheet on my KIS TR-1 will answer most of your questions copied below.

I believe in using the actual weight of occupants, not 170 pounds.

Where did you have your battery before and where did you move it to?

What kind of battery are you using and what does it weigh?

Thanks. Please let me know if you have any questions.

OC

PS: My PC 680 battery is mounted just forward of the aft bulkhead of the baggage compartment on the far right side of the compartment.

==========================================


From: Flyinisfun(at)aol.com (Flyinisfun(at)aol.com)
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 9:57 PM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: weights and balances


I am re-weighing my two place KIS -1 after moving the batteries forward by 30 inches. I feel I have been too near the rear CG and wanted more room at the rear. I would like to compare with you guys the following.

1. What are your empty weights and CG numbers?

2. Do you figure gross weight by using 170 lbs. per occupant or do you use the actual weight of the occupant?

3. How much gas are you leaving home with two 200 lb. bodies aboard and no luggage?

Jesse Wright
Quote:



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WT&BALKISCOMB6.xls
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wschertz(at)comcast.net
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:31 am    Post subject: weights and balances Reply with quote
For theFAA you need a W&B using 170 lb, but for flying you need actual.
(30years since I've seen 170 lb)
bill Schertz
Sent from my iPad

On Jul 15, 2012, at 10:34 PM, "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:

[quote] 7/15/2012

Hello Jesse, I think that the attached spread sheet on my KIS TR-1 will answer most of your questions copied below.

I believe in using the actual weight of occupants, not 170 pounds.

Where did you have your battery before and where did you move it to?

What kind of battery are you using and what does it weigh?

Thanks. Please let me know if you have any questions.

OC

PS: My PC 680 battery is mounted just forward of the aft bulkhead of the baggage compartment on the far right side of the compartment.

==========================================


From: Flyinisfun(at)aol.com (Flyinisfun(at)aol.com)
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 9:57 PM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: weights and balances


I am re-weighing my two place KIS -1 after moving the batteries forward by 30 inches. I feel I have been too near the rear CG and wanted more room at the rear. I would like to compare with you guys the following.

1. What are your empty weights and CG numbers?

2. Do you figure gross weight by using 170 lbs. per occupant or do you use the actual weight of the occupant?

3. How much gas are you leaving home with two 200 lb. bodies aboard and no luggage?

Jesse Wright
Quote:



<WT&BALKISCOMB6.xls>
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ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com
Guest
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:40 am    Post subject: weights and balances Reply with quote
Hans,

What engine do you have?

Thanks, Tim
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sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:49 am    Post subject: weights and balances Reply with quote
From: "Flyinisfun(at)aol.com" <Flyinisfun(at)aol.com>
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 6:57 PM
Subject: weights and balances


I am re-weighing my two place KIS -1 after moving the batteries forward by 30 inches. I feel I have been too near the rear CG and wanted more room at the rear. I would like to compare with you guys the following.

1. What are your empty weights and CG numbers?

Empty is 835 lbs with a Oddessy 925 battery (24lbs), a parallel valve lycoming 360, and a lot of carbon fiber bits.. Empty CG is 8.5 inches behind the wing LE.

2. Do you figure gross weight by using 170 lbs. per occupant or do you use the actual weight of the occupant?

The airlines now assume 190 lbs per passenger in summber and 195 lbs in winter. We legally have to use actual weight when flying private airplanes. How I wish I was 190 lbs....

3. How much gas are you leaving home with two 200 lb. bodies aboard and no luggage?

50 gallons.

Cheers,
Scott

  Jesse Wright
[quote]http://ww=====

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punchy(at)frontiernet.net
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:23 am    Post subject: weights and balances Reply with quote
Jesse,

My KIS TR-1 is about 100 pounds heavier than yours with a LYC 0320 150 HP.

How did you get that low of an empty weight with the 0360?

I would be interested in your true air speed at 75% power cruise with that engine.

Also, do you notice not much prop clearance from the ground? That is a concern of mine which I haven't fixed yet.


Rob

On 7/17/2012 9:48 AM, Scott Stearns wrote:

[quote]


From: "Flyinisfun(at)aol.com" (Flyinisfun(at)aol.com) <Flyinisfun(at)aol.com> (Flyinisfun(at)aol.com)
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 6:57 PM
Subject: weights and balances


I am re-weighing my two place KIS -1 after moving the batteries forward by 30 inches. I feel I have been too near the rear CG and wanted more room at the rear. I would like to compare with you guys the following.

1. What are your empty weights and CG numbers?

Empty is 835 lbs with a Oddessy 925 battery (24lbs), a parallel valve lycoming 360, and a lot of carbon fiber bits.. Empty CG is 8.5 inches behind the wing LE.

2. Do you figure gross weight by using 170 lbs. per occupant or do you use the actual weight of the occupant?

The airlines now assume 190 lbs per passenger in summber and 195 lbs in winter. We legally have to use actual weight when flying private airplanes. How I wish I was 190 lbs....

3. How much gas are you leaving home with two 200 lb. bodies aboard and no luggage?

50 gallons.

Cheers,
Scott

Jesse Wright
Quote:
http://ww=====


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sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:39 am    Post subject: weights and balances Reply with quote
Hi Rob,
I think you mean Scott rather than Jesse.
I used a light weight starter and alternator, no vaccum system, capable but simple panel. The wing, ailerons, flaps, cowl, fairings, and elevator are carbon fiber. I know I saved about 8 lbs on the cowl and about 15 lbs on the wing skins since I weighed the factory parts and my parts. No wet layup polyester parts, all prepreg. I never understood why Rich used wet layup for any of the parts. Simple interior, but nice cushions. The tailwheel and spring are lighter than the nosegear. The 360 is about 30 lbs heavier than the 320. I use a 68x80 prince carbon prop and have plenty of ground clearance. I really need about 68x84. The taildragger main gear is taller than the nosegear.
What prop do you have on your 320? What kind of cruise speed?
The engine is 180 HP from the factory. My engine has 10:1 pistons, ported and flow matched heads, and electronic ignition and put out 220 HP on the test cell. The added cost of these modifications is pretty small when buying a new engine. Wide open at 12500', which is about 75% of 180 HP, it does 190 KTAS but it is spinning 2900 rpm with the current prop. I cruise at 12500 pulled back to 2700 rpm, leaned to peak EGT which is 8-8.5 gph at 175 KTAS. At 75% of 220 HP i think it would do 200 KTAS at 6-7000' but that amounts to running the engine near 100% of rated power continuosly which I dont think is a good idea and the indicated airspeed would be pretty high and it would be using a lot of gas.
The speeds are with RV-8 wheel pants, and custom gear leg fairings and tailwheel fairings. Those fairings all together are worth 15+ KTAS at 12500.
I would highly recommend the 10:1 pistons if nothing else. It makes a big difference efficiency over the 8.5:1 stock pistons. Lycoming used 10:1 pistons in almost all their helicopter engines.
If I did it again I think I would buy a low/mid time 320 and do a top overhaul with the 10:1 pistons, head porting and flow matching, ebay the mags and get Pmags, ebay the carb and go to bendix fuel injection if it did not come with. It would put out about 190 HP, weigh 270 lbs, and get close to 0.4 sfc in cruise and cost $12-13K. That engine would be really hard to beat.
Cheers,
Scott

On Jul 17, 2012, at 11:23 AM, Rob <punchy(at)frontiernet.net (punchy(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:

[quote] Jesse,

My KIS TR-1 is about 100 pounds heavier than yours with a LYC 0320 150 HP.

How did you get that low of an empty weight with the 0360?

I would be interested in your true air speed at 75% power cruise with that engine.

Also, do you notice not much prop clearance from the ground? That is a concern of mine which I haven't fixed yet.


Rob

On 7/17/2012 9:48 AM, Scott Stearns wrote:

Quote:



From: "[url=mailto:Flyinisfun(at)aol.com]Flyinisfun(at)aol.com (Flyinisfun(at)aol.com)"[/url] <[url=mailto:Flyinisfun(at)aol.com]Flyinisfun(at)aol.com (Flyinisfun(at)aol.com)>[/url]
To: [url=mailto:kis-list(at)matronics.com]kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)[/url]
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 6:57 PM
Subject: weights and balances


I am re-weighing my two place KIS -1 after moving the batteries forward by 30 inches. I feel I have been too near the rear CG and wanted more room at the rear. I would like to compare with you guys the following.

1. What are your empty weights and CG numbers?

Empty is 835 lbs with a Oddessy 925 battery (24lbs), a parallel valve lycoming 360, and a lot of carbon fiber bits.. Empty CG is 8.5 inches behind the wing LE.

2. Do you figure gross weight by using 170 lbs. per occupant or do you use the actual weight of the occupant?

The airlines now assume 190 lbs per passenger in summber and 195 lbs in winter. We legally have to use actual weight when flying private airplanes. How I wish I was 190 lbs....

3. How much gas are you leaving home with two 200 lb. bodies aboard and no luggage?

50 gallons.

Cheers,
Scott

Jesse Wright
Quote:
http://ww=====




href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution


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punchy(at)frontiernet.net
Guest
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:52 pm    Post subject: weights and balances Reply with quote
Scott,

Sorry about the name mix up.  I have an old wood prop that came with the plane.  Not sure of the Mfg.  but know it is not matched to the plane and engine for the best performance.  I have one pmag on the impulse side and and older
Jeff Rose electronic on the other side.  I haven't had a chance to properly calculate the true airspeed but would think that it is somewhere around 175 to 185 MPH at 8500 MSL full throttle and averaging about 7.5 gal per hour cross country on
a 2.5 hour flight. The engine is rated at 150 hp with the low pistion compressing ratio I believe in the 7.? to 1 area.  It has about 470 hours since major over hall and about 350 hours on the airframe.  Doesn't use much oil and compression in the
mid 70's  It is a great and economical plane for xcross country but I am 6' 1"" tall and 73 years so the getting in and out with the gull wing type door is not to my liking anymore, would like a slider to just swing my leg over and sit down.  Thinking about
going the RV7 or RV9 way.

Rob

On 7/17/2012 12:40 PM, Scott Stearns wrote:

[quote] Hi Rob,


I think you mean Scott rather than Jesse.


I used a light weight starter and alternator, no vaccum system, capable but simple panel.  The wing, ailerons, flaps, cowl, fairings, and elevator are carbon fiber.  I know I saved about 8 lbs on the cowl and about 15 lbs on the wing skins since I weighed the factory parts and my parts.  No wet layup polyester parts, all prepreg.  I never understood why Rich used wet layup for any of the parts.  Simple interior, but nice cushions.  The tailwheel and spring are lighter than the nosegear.  The 360 is about 30 lbs heavier than the 320. I use a 68x80 prince carbon prop and have plenty of ground clearance.  I really need about 68x84.  The taildragger main gear is taller than the nosegear.


What prop do you have on your 320?  What kind of cruise speed?  


The engine is 180 HP from the factory.  My engine has 10:1 pistons, ported and flow matched  heads, and electronic ignition and put out 220 HP on the test cell.  The added cost of these modifications is pretty small when buying a new engine.  Wide open at 12500', which is about 75% of 180 HP, it does 190 KTAS but it is spinning 2900 rpm with the current prop.  I cruise at 12500 pulled back to 2700 rpm, leaned to peak EGT which is 8-8.5 gph at 175 KTAS.  At 75% of 220 HP i think it would do 200 KTAS at 6-7000' but that amounts to running the engine near 100% of rated power continuosly which I dont think is a good idea and the indicated airspeed would be pretty high and it would be using a lot of gas.  


The speeds are with RV-8 wheel pants, and custom gear leg fairings and tailwheel fairings.  Those fairings all together are worth 15+ KTAS at 12500.


I would highly recommend the 10:1 pistons if nothing else.  It makes a big difference efficiency over the 8.5:1 stock pistons.  Lycoming used 10:1 pistons in almost all their helicopter engines. 


If I did it again I think I would buy a low/mid time 320 and do a top overhaul with the 10:1 pistons, head porting and flow matching, ebay the mags and get Pmags, ebay the carb and go to bendix fuel injection if it did not come with.  It would put out about 190 HP, weigh 270 lbs, and get close to 0.4 sfc in cruise and cost $12-13K.  That engine would be really hard to beat.


Cheers,
Scott







On Jul 17, 2012, at 11:23 AM, Rob <punchy(at)frontiernet.net (punchy(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:


Quote:
Jesse,

My KIS TR-1 is about 100 pounds heavier than yours with a LYC 0320 150 HP.

How did you get that low of an empty weight with the 0360?

I would be interested in your true air speed at 75% power cruise  with that engine.

Also, do you notice not much prop clearance from the ground?  That is a concern of mine which I haven't fixed yet.


Rob

On 7/17/2012 9:48 AM, Scott Stearns wrote:

Quote:



From: " (Flyinisfun(at)aol.com)Flyinisfun(at)aol.com (Flyinisfun(at)aol.com)" < (Flyinisfun(at)aol.com)Flyinisfun(at)aol.com (Flyinisfun(at)aol.com)>
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 6:57 PM
Subject: weights and balances


I am re-weighing my two place KIS -1 after moving the batteries forward by 30 inches.  I feel I have been too near the rear CG and wanted more room at the rear.  I would like to compare with you guys the following.
 
1.  What are your empty weights and CG numbers?
 
Empty is 835 lbs with a Oddessy 925 battery (24lbs), a parallel valve lycoming 360, and a lot of carbon fiber bits..  Empty CG is 8.5 inches behind the wing LE.
 
2.  Do you figure gross weight by using 170 lbs. per occupant or do you use the actual weight of the occupant?
 
The airlines now assume 190 lbs per passenger in summber and 195 lbs in winter.  We legally have to use actual weight when flying private airplanes.  How I wish I was 190 lbs....
 
3.  How much gas are you leaving home with two 200 lb. bodies aboard and no luggage?
 
50 gallons.
 
Cheers,
Scott
 
      Jesse Wright     
Quote:
http://ww=====




href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



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sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:19 pm    Post subject: weights and balances Reply with quote
Hi Rob,

i am 38 and in pretty good shape and I am getting sick of the gull wing doors. My airplane will do 185 mph at 8500' at 6.5 gph. I think the difference is mainly in the engine. Going from 7:1 to 10:1 compression (and expansion) will make a large improvement in how much power you get out of the fuel.

For the price of an RV 7 or 9 you can get a nice 4 seat certified airplane. There are some really nice early bonanzas out there for $60-70k. They are really nice flying airplanes. There are some great deals out there right now

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ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com
Guest
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:44 pm    Post subject: weights and balances Reply with quote
I remember one piece of advice on determining the maximum prop length. Let the air out of the nose wheel tire, simulate a flat, and subtract a little more. Vance had a saying something like, A prop should be as long as a prop can be.

My Sensenich is 69", a friends TR-1 has a 65" prop.

Tim
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lgdavid2(at)verizon.net
Guest
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:50 pm    Post subject: weights and balances Reply with quote
Tim, I remember Vance often saying: "Keep your prop as long as you can as long as you can." Larry
On 7/17/2012 6:44 PM, F. Tim Yoder wrote:

[quote] I remember one piece of advice on determining the maximum prop length. Let the air out of the nose wheel tire, simulate a flat, and subtract a little more. Vance had a saying something like, A prop should be as long as a prop can be.

My Sensenich is 69", a friends TR-1 has a 65" prop.

Tim
[quote] ---

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