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Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:43 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

I am looking at installing my ACK E-04 antenna under the tail

intersection fiberglass fairing. I've read through a good discussion

on the AeroElectric list and feel the trade-off of horizontal

polarization, vs protection from impact and eliminating the drag is

worth it.  I know that Mooney got approval for similar antenna instal

for a 406 antenna in fiberglass ventral fin.

My question is if anyone has done this and gotten any grief from their

DAR. My only concern is to fully meet the TSO on the ELT you are

supposed to comply with the install instructions, that call for

vertical mounting withing 30 degrees.

Kelly

40866

forever finishing

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

Strasnuts

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:49 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

Kelly,



I mounted mine horizontally under the tailcone fairing with no problems from 

the DAR.

I later converted mine to 406 and accidentally set it off.  The airforce 

called me within 5 minutes so I knew it worked well even in the hangar with 

the door closed.  I wouldn't recommend testing it this way 

---

_________________
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:52 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

That is how I did it.  My DAR did not comment.



After the crash, which way will the antenna be pointing?



Rene' Felker

N423CF

801-721-6080



--

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:54 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

I've done it and haven't gotten any grief from a DAR.



On Aug 28, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I am looking at installing my ACK E-04 antenna under the tail

 intersection fiberglass fairing. I've read through a good discussion

 on the AeroElectric list and feel the trade-off of horizontal

 polarization, vs protection from impact and eliminating the drag is

 worth it.  I know that Mooney got approval for similar antenna instal

 for a 406 antenna in fiberglass ventral fin.

 My question is if anyone has done this and gotten any grief from their

 DAR. My only concern is to fully meet the TSO on the ELT you are

 supposed to comply with the install instructions, that call for

 vertical mounting withing 30 degrees.

 Kelly

 40866

 forever finishing

Strasnuts

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:56 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

Ya. Plus in my checklist I state to make sure you crash within 30 degrees of vertical so they can find your body. 



Sent from my iPhone



On Aug 28, 2012, at 12:48, "Rene Felker" <rene(at)felker.com> wrote:



[quote] 

 

 That is how I did it.  My DAR did not comment.

 

 After the crash, which way will the antenna be pointing?

 

 Rene' Felker

 N423CF

 801-721-6080

 

 --

_________________
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours

coop85(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:59 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

Kelly,

   That's exactly what I did and received no grief whatsoever from the DAR.



Marcus



On Aug 28, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> wrote:






I am looking at installing my ACK E-04 antenna under the tail

intersection fiberglass fairing. I've read through a good discussion

on the AeroElectric list and feel the trade-off of horizontal

polarization, vs protection from impact and eliminating the drag is

worth it.  I know that Mooney got approval for similar antenna instal

for a 406 antenna in fiberglass ventral fin.

My question is if anyone has done this and gotten any grief from their

DAR. My only concern is to fully meet the TSO on the ELT you are

supposed to comply with the install instructions, that call for

vertical mounting withing 30 degrees.

Kelly

40866

forever finishing

rv10rob(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:03 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

I installed my 406 ELT on top of the tail cone, to ensure it has a good ground plane and view of the sky.  I really regret it.  It looks dumb and is draggy.  By all accounts, they work great under the tail fairing, and for me flying most trips IFR and using a SPOT mitigates the risk even further.

-Rob

On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Seano <sean(at)braunandco.com (sean(at)braunandco.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: Seano <sean(at)braunandco.com (sean(at)braunandco.com)>

 Ya. Plus in my checklist I state to make sure you crash within 30 degrees of vertical so they can find your body.

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 28, 2012, at 12:48, "Rene Felker" <rene(at)felker.com (rene(at)felker.com)> wrote:

 > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Rene Felker" <rene(at)felker.com (rene(at)felker.com)>

 >

 > That is how I did it.  My DAR did not comment.

 >

 > After the crash, which way will the antenna be pointing?

 >

 > Rene' Felker

 > N423CF

 > [url=tel:801-721-6080]801-721-6080[/url]

 >

 > --

carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:06 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

That is how I have the antenna mounted in both the 8A and the 10.  The local FSDO did sign offs on both planes and did not mention the mount for either one.



Carl



On Aug 28, 2012, at 12:53 PM, Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I've done it and haven't gotten any grief from a DAR.

 

 On Aug 28, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

> 

> 

> I am looking at installing my ACK E-04 antenna under the tail

> intersection fiberglass fairing. I've read through a good discussion

> on the AeroElectric list and feel the trade-off of horizontal

> polarization, vs protection from impact and eliminating the drag is

> worth it.  I know that Mooney got approval for similar antenna instal

> for a 406 antenna in fiberglass ventral fin.

> My question is if anyone has done this and gotten any grief from their

> DAR. My only concern is to fully meet the TSO on the ELT you are

> supposed to comply with the install instructions, that call for

> vertical mounting withing 30 degrees.

> Kelly

> 40866

> forever finishing

> 

> 

> 

>

rv10pro(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:53 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

Use an IFR-4000-Opt 1 and see if the 406 emits the squitter discrete data from your concealed antenna.  It will also allow you to determine how many Db loss the idea cost. 

We have the elt mounted with horizontal ground plane and 1/3 of the antennae concealed.  It is a quarter wave for 121.5. 

Cosmetics goes out the window when you are inverted in the snow in February.  The drag coefficient has always been a none issue. 

John On Aug 28, 2012 9:46 AM, "Kelly McMullen" <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)>

 

 I am looking at installing my ACK E-04 antenna under the tail

 intersection fiberglass fairing. I've read through a good discussion

 on the AeroElectric list and feel the trade-off of horizontal

 polarization, vs protection from impact and eliminating the drag is

 worth it.  I know that Mooney got approval for similar antenna instal

 for a 406 antenna in fiberglass ventral fin.

 My question is if anyone has done this and gotten any grief from their

 DAR. My only concern is to fully meet the TSO on the ELT you are

 supposed to comply with the install instructions, that call for

 vertical mounting withing 30 degrees.

 Kelly

 40866

 forever finishing

 

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

rnewman(at)tcwtech.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:53 pm Post subject: ELT Antenna

All of you that have not had an  issue with your DAR inspection count yourself as lucky.    My DAR  had this issue of the ELT antenna being absolutely installed per the TSO for  which the ELT was certified up front on his list of things that were deal  breakers for him.   This is the only antenna hole I had to drill  through the top of my airplane, I was not pleased.    The only  good news for me was that he was upfront about the antenna issue and I had a  month or so to prepare myself for drilling the hole.



   



  good  luck with your elt install,   your experience will vary with the DAR  available to you!



   



   



  Bob  Newman



  N541RV



   



  www.tcwtech.com   



   [quote][b]

rv10flyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:02 pm Post subject: ELT Antenna

DAR are basically FAA designated representatives. I had to spend 3 hours at  a FSDO with 7 different FAA examiners drilling me for my repairmanâ€™s  certificate. Another builder got his after a 15 minute discussion with his FSDO  and his explaining the pictures, difference is he went to a FSDO that understood  experimental aircraft, I went to my FSDO in a area where they donâ€™t see too many  experimentals so they donâ€™t understand the rules and requirements without  studying the regs.. 

 My point is my DAR has a RV has been a DAR for 21 years and knew the rules  for â€œexperimentalâ€ aircraft, he recommended I put the antenna where mine is,  under the fiberglass fairing below the VS, he told me a whole lot because he  knew what the rules were but he also knew what is was like to fly a RV. I wasnâ€™t  lucky, I was fortunate.

 Get a Technical Councelor, get one that knows RV and who knows who the best  DAR is for you. Having to drill a hole is ridiculous, I would have found another  DAR if I was told this was my only option, if that 2nd opinion DAR told me to do  it, than I would. I canâ€™t tell you how many â€œhighly educatedâ€ people told me I  needed to do  something, I tested the idea off of another builder who  almost laughed at my questions, in the end he was right I didnâ€™t need to drill  holes in places to do the job right.

  

  

    

  From: bob-tcw (rnewman(at)tcwtech.com) 

 Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 5:52 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: ELT Antenna

  



     All of you that have not had an  issue with your DAR inspection count yourself as lucky.    My DAR  had this issue of the ELT antenna being absolutely installed per the TSO for  which the ELT was certified up front on his list of things that were deal  breakers for him.   This is the only antenna hole I had to drill  through the top of my airplane, I was not pleased.    The only  good news for me was that he was upfront about the antenna issue and I had a  month or so to prepare myself for drilling the hole.



   



  good  luck with your elt install,   your experience will vary with the DAR  available to you!



   



   



  Bob  Newman



  N541RV



   



  www.tcwtech.com   



[quote]



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href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:55 pm Post subject: Re: ELT Antenna

Anyone mount their antenna to the baggage area bulkhead, with the antenna running just below the baggage area fiberglass ceiling?

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:50 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

Doesn't it need to be vertically polarized (pointing up, not horizontal)?



Mine is mounted on the back seat cross bar against the left side.  I

figured the cross bar provides some ground plane, as does the rest of

the nearby sheet metal.  Seems to work fine.



Dave Saylor

831-750-0284 CL

On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 11:55 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Anyone mount their antenna to the baggage area bulkhead, with the antenna running just below the baggage area fiberglass ceiling?



 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382041#382041

cjhukill(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:15 am Post subject: ELT antenna

I mounted my 406 ELT antenna using the baggage bulkhead as the ground plane  and actually embedded wire of the antenna in the canopy cover, (as well as the  GPS antenna). My RV8 has the ELT antenna in the wing tip, mounted  horizontally, and that passed the AirForce operational test as well, in a  closed metal hangar. The vertical mounting that is recommended (not required by  the aircraft manufacturer), is to optimize the low power (100mw)121.5 MHz signal  for the SAR to home in on. The horizontal polarization optimizes the much  stronger (5 watt) 406 MHz signals getting to the satellites. As the  aircraft manufacture, I prioritized the ability to get a signal up to  a satellite rather than to the ground searchers. I did also leave in the  old 5 Watt, 121.5 MHz ELT as well for those guys to practice with. Any DAR  without the understanding of this technology or the rights and responsibilities  of the aircraft builder will be eliminated as contenders for my choice for  certification.

  

 Chris Hukill

 RV10 on hold while RV8 gets yet another new panel with ADS-B and Synthetic  Vision.



   [quote][b]

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:19 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

Optimal is vertically polarized when needed.  IMHO, if you crash and 

wind up in the same orientation as normal on the gear, you probably 

don't need the ELT. Otherwise, in any other crash position, you probably 

do need ELT, but I'm not smart enough to predict that position, much 

less which way that would make vertical. One of the experts on the 

AeroElectric list estimated that if you had horizontal orientation 

instead of vertical you would lose about 3 db of signal strength.

I do like your idea as a potential location for the antenna that would 

be out of the way, and technically meet the install instructions for 

vertical orientation.

Kelly

On 8/29/2012 6:49 AM, Dave Saylor wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Doesn't it need to be vertically polarized (pointing up, not horizontal)?

 Mine is mounted on the back seat cross bar against the left side.  I

 figured the cross bar provides some ground plane, as does the rest of

 the nearby sheet metal.  Seems to work fine.

 Dave Saylor

 831-750-0284 CL

 On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 11:55 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> wrote:

> 

>

> Anyone mount their antenna to the baggage area bulkhead, with the antenna running just below the baggage area fiberglass ceiling?

>

> --------

> Bob Turner

> RV-10 QB

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382041#382041

>

>

-----

No virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:35 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

Personally, I'd agree with this.  The one thing that people tend

to overlook though is that probably the MOST important thing

is that you maintain the integrity of the antenna to ELT box

connection.  It won't matter much where the antenna is, if the

antenna cable is ripped away from the ELT because it was

mounted to some structure that tore away.  So keeping the

antenna mounted either to the same structure or to something

very nearby or robust nearby would be best.



Tim



On 8/29/2012 9:19 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Optimal is vertically polarized when needed.  IMHO, if you crash and

 wind up in the same orientation as normal on the gear, you probably

 don't need the ELT. Otherwise, in any other crash position, you probably

 do need ELT, but I'm not smart enough to predict that position, much

 less which way that would make vertical. One of the experts on the

 AeroElectric list estimated that if you had horizontal orientation

 instead of vertical you would lose about 3 db of signal strength.

 I do like your idea as a potential location for the antenna that would

 be out of the way, and technically meet the install instructions for

 vertical orientation.

 Kelly

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:49 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

Very valid point Tim. I'm not sure that going through the baggage

compartment bulkhead would meet that criteria. On the other hand, I

don't want to mount the ELT all the way back in the tail cone where

only a 10 year old could get in and change the battery, nor do I

really want it in the cabin where a bag or pax could accidentally bump

it.

Kelly



On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 7:35 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Personally, I'd agree with this.  The one thing that people tend

 to overlook though is that probably the MOST important thing

 is that you maintain the integrity of the antenna to ELT box

 connection.  It won't matter much where the antenna is, if the

 antenna cable is ripped away from the ELT because it was

 mounted to some structure that tore away.  So keeping the

 antenna mounted either to the same structure or to something

 very nearby or robust nearby would be best.



 Tim

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:51 am Post subject: ELT antenna

Chris,

Perfect explanation using facts and data.

The system of FSDOs and DARS provides opportunities for "I thinks" to become unfounded and undocumented requirements.  On my FSDO RV-10 inspection, he had some understanding of multiple wavelength antenna radiation patterns so my empennage mounted ELT antenna was not an issue.  He did however have a hard requirement for a TSO certified wet compass.  I pointed out to him the real requirement being "a magnetic heading reference" and since I have two ADHRS units I more than met the requirement.  I knew this up front so I elected to roll on it.  I mounted the TSO wet compass from Vans - and got the sign off.

The upside is this is a real nice wet compass - that I carefully calibrated, connected it to the dimmer circuit, and will never use.

Carl



On Aug 29, 2012, at 10:15 AM, "Chris Hukill" <cjhukill(at)cox.net (cjhukill(at)cox.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		          I mounted my 406 ELT antenna using the baggage bulkhead as the ground plane  and actually embedded wire of the antenna in the canopy cover, (as well as the  GPS antenna). My RV8 has the ELT antenna in the wing tip, mounted  horizontally, and that passed the AirForce operational test as well, in a  closed metal hangar. The vertical mounting that is recommended (not required by  the aircraft manufacturer), is to optimize the low power (100mw)121.5 MHz signal  for the SAR to home in on. The horizontal polarization optimizes the much  stronger (5 watt) 406 MHz signals getting to the satellites. As the  aircraft manufacture, I prioritized the ability to get a signal up to  a satellite rather than to the ground searchers. I did also leave in the  old 5 Watt, 121.5 MHz ELT as well for those guys to practice with. Any DAR  without the understanding of this technology or the rights and responsibilities  of the aircraft builder will be eliminated as contenders for my choice for  certification.

  

 Chris Hukill

 RV10 on hold while RV8 gets yet another new panel with ADS-B and Synthetic  Vision.



    	  Quote: 	
		  



===================================

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===================================

cs.com

===================================

matronics.com/contribution

===================================



	
 

	




 [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:58 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

Not that I'd call this a "best" place by any means, but

I put mine right above the elevator trim stuff, between

the 2 trim cables, on top of that upper deck, under

the vertical stab, with the antenna facing back next to it

under the VS.  For me, it was good for W&B, and it

also makes it easy to replace the batteries (even though

it's a 5 year thing now) because just pulling that

fairing gives full access.  Should be a beefy place

on the structure and if I go in, the tail should go

in last. 

Tim

On 8/29/2012 9:49 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Very valid point Tim. I'm not sure that going through the baggage

 compartment bulkhead would meet that criteria. On the other hand, I

 don't want to mount the ELT all the way back in the tail cone where

 only a 10 year old could get in and change the battery, nor do I

 really want it in the cabin where a bag or pax could accidentally bump

 it.

 Kelly



 On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 7:35 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> wrote:

> 

>

> Personally, I'd agree with this.  The one thing that people tend

> to overlook though is that probably the MOST important thing

> is that you maintain the integrity of the antenna to ELT box

> connection.  It won't matter much where the antenna is, if the

> antenna cable is ripped away from the ELT because it was

> mounted to some structure that tore away.  So keeping the

> antenna mounted either to the same structure or to something

> very nearby or robust nearby would be best.

>

> Tim

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:31 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

That's exactly where and how I have mounted them myself. Just like having the data plate on the tail, that's the part that will probably survive a crash best. I also fully agree with the polarity arguments. If I can land with the wheels down and the VS up, then the ELT won't help much.



do not archive



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

C: 352-427-0285

F: 815-377-3694

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