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Robert Reed
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth
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 Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:52 pm Post subject: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? |
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All,
Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe this setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay.
Bob Reed
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N247BR_Flap_Control.pdf |
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enginerdy(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:22 pm Post subject: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? |
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I like your idea, using simple limit switches and relays for position control, but it I'm having trouble with what will happen under the following condition:
Say for the sake of clarity the flap positions are up, 10, 20, and 30..
The flaps are up, and the green LED is lit.
I set flaps to 20, which will open the 10 switch, then the 20 switch. The flap movement completes and the 20 deg yellow LED lights.
I set flaps back to 10, because I didn't mean to go all the way to 20.
...
From what I can see, the yellow 10 LED will be lit, but the flaps will not move from the 20 degree position.
That is, to get the flaps to retract under any circumstance, you need to turn the knob to 'up'.
It's possible I'm not seeing something though.
You definitely should turn the LEDs around so that they "point" to ground, and you'll either need to use 12V LEDs with internal resistors, or provide series resistors somewhere in the range of 1k Ohm.
I like your limit cutoff switches -- it makes the flaps retractable or extendable even if the limit is somehow hit due to a transient problem. It might be handy to add 'limit cutoff' LEDs on them as well.
--Daniel
On Sep 14, 2012, at 6:51 PM, Robert Reed wrote:
| Quote: |
All,
Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe this setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay.
Bob Reed
<N247BR Flap Control.pdf>
|
[quote][b]
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JLuckey(at)pacbell.net
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:57 pm Post subject: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? |
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Robert see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcBvmL-FxYQ
It’s a demo of a flap controller that uses a pot for position-sense & is field_programmable.
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Reed
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 16:52
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
All,
Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe this setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay.
Bob Reed
[quote][b]
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Robert Reed
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:27 pm Post subject: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? |
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Daniel,
You are correct, the setup will step down but not up. Turning the switch back to 10 would stop the movement if beyond the 10 degrees but would not return it to 10 degrees. In trying to maintain the KISS design could not come up with a simple return to the prior setting I agree with the indicators for the overrun limit switches and have considered that. I do have the 12v LED's but wasn't aware of the difference on the symbols.
Thanks for your input.
Bob
From: Daniel Hooper <enginerdy(at)gmail.com>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, September 14, 2012 7:24:05 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
I like your idea, using simple limit switches and relays for position control, but it I'm having trouble with what will happen under the following condition:
Say for the sake of clarity the flap positions are up, 10, 20, and 30..
The flaps are up, and the green LED is lit.
I set flaps to 20, which will open the 10 switch, then the 20 switch. The flap movement completes and the 20 deg yellow LED lights.
I set flaps back to 10, because I didn't mean to go all the way to 20.
...
From what I can see, the yellow 10 LED will be lit, but the flaps will not move from the 20 degree position.
That is, to get the flaps to retract under any circumstance, you need to turn the knob to 'up'.
It's possible I'm not seeing something though.
You definitely should turn the LEDs around so that they "point" to ground, and you'll either need to use 12V LEDs with internal resistors, or provide series resistors somewhere in the range of 1k Ohm.
I like your limit cutoff switches -- it makes the flaps retractable or extendable even if the limit is somehow hit due to a transient problem. It might be handy to add 'limit cutoff' LEDs on them as well.
--Daniel
On Sep 14, 2012, at 6:51 PM, Robert Reed wrote:
[quote]
All,
Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe this setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay.
Bob Reed
<N247BR Flap Control.pdf>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Lip://www.matronics.com/contribution" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://w=======================
[b]
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Robert Reed
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:36 pm Post subject: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? |
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One thought...should I reverse the setup on the Over Retract Limit switch? After looking at it I think it would result in a direct short to ground which would probably blow the fuse. Am I thinking right? What I am trying to accomplish is to break the circuit while still allowing the reversal.
Bob
From: Daniel Hooper <enginerdy(at)gmail.com>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, September 14, 2012 7:24:05 PM
Subject: Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
I like your idea, using simple limit switches and relays for position control, but it I'm having trouble with what will happen under the following condition:
Say for the sake of clarity the flap positions are up, 10, 20, and 30..
The flaps are up, and the green LED is lit.
I set flaps to 20, which will open the 10 switch, then the 20 switch. The flap movement completes and the 20 deg yellow LED lights.
I set flaps back to 10, because I didn't mean to go all the way to 20.
...
From what I can see, the yellow 10 LED will be lit, but the flaps will not move from the 20 degree position.
That is, to get the flaps to retract under any circumstance, you need to turn the knob to 'up'.
It's possible I'm not seeing something though.
You definitely should turn the LEDs around so that they "point" to ground, and you'll either need to use 12V LEDs with internal resistors, or provide series resistors somewhere in the range of 1k Ohm.
I like your limit cutoff switches -- it makes the flaps retractable or extendable even if the limit is somehow hit due to a transient problem. It might be handy to add 'limit cutoff' LEDs on them as well.
--Daniel
On Sep 14, 2012, at 6:51 PM, Robert Reed wrote:
[quote]
All,
Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe this setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay.
Bob Reed
<N247BR Flap Control.pdf>
http://www.matronics.com/cont================
[b]
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Robert Reed
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:37 pm Post subject: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? |
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I like where they are going with it.
BOB
From: Jeff Luckey <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, September 14, 2012 7:58:07 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
Robert see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcBvmL-FxYQ
It’s a demo of a flap controller that uses a pot for position-sense & is field_programmable.
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Reed
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 16:52
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
All,
Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe this setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay.
Bob Reed
[quote]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElect="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" rel=nofollow target=_blank>h
[b]
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n992dn(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:13 pm Post subject: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? |
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Rob
It will not work.
I understand the KIS approach that leads you to use relays/micro switches only. Unfortunately designing such thing will require some level of electronic involves and the reason for it is that you need to know at all times what the position of the flaps is because you need to tell the motor to which direction to go, up/down. Using micro switch as a location sensing lacks this capability, it “senses” at only one position, the position to which you set it mechanically along the motor travel. The moment the motor moves from that position you have no indication of where you are. The most common sense to use as sensing device would be a potentiometer, and then you need some electronics to sense and compare (comparators). I would even think basing the design on the LM3914 10 LED driver.
When it was time for me to change the flap system on my RANS 6 from manual to electric I thought, as an electronic fan about deferent designs but eventually find myself using this:
http://www.e-motionllc.com/Feedback_actuator_p/fa-po-150-12-2.htm
As the actuator (it has built in potentiometer)
And this as a controller.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/electronicsflapcontroller.php
A little pricy, I know but works, I love every second flying the 6 with this arrangement
Nati
RANS 6
Illinois
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:
[quote]
All,
Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe this setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay.
Bob Reed
[b]
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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Robert Reed
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:40 pm Post subject: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? |
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Nati,
Sorry, I only showed the electrical and did not explain the mechanics of the operation.
The micro-switches will be located in a channel with the ability to move them to adjust the positions. A slide bar will be attached to the trim control arm. The slide bar will close each switch in line during the retract operation and open each in line during the extend. During the retract operation only the retract circuit will be powered by the rotary switch with the intent of full retraction and not stepped retraction. During extension, only one circuit can be active at any time and that circuit will close as soon as the slide bar passes the switch allowing it to open. The indicator lights will only light when the desired circuit is active and the switch is open. It should allow for either stepped flap extension or full extension with one operation.
Bob
From: Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, September 14, 2012 10:14:26 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
Rob
It will not work.
I understand the KIS approach that leads you to use relays/micro switches only. Unfortunately designing such thing will require some level of electronic involves and the reason for it is that you need to know at all times what the position of the flaps is because you need to tell the motor to which direction to go, up/down. Using micro switch as a location sensing lacks this capability, it “senses” at only one position, the position to which you set it mechanically along the motor travel. The moment the motor moves from that position you have no indication of where you are. The most common sense to use as sensing device would be a potentiometer, and then you need some electronics to sense and compare (comparators). I would even think basing the design on the LM3914 10 LED driver.
When it was time for me to change the flap system on my RANS 6 from manual to electric I thought, as an electronic fan about deferent designs but eventually find myself using this:
http://www.e-motionllc.com/Feedback_actuator_p/fa-po-150-12-2.htm
As the actuator (it has built in potentiometer)
And this as a controller.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/electronicsflapcontroller.php
A little pricy, I know but works, I love every second flying the 6 with this arrangement
Nati
RANS 6
Illinois
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:
| Quote: |
All,
Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe this setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay.
Bob Reed
om/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.mhref="http://forums.matronics.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http:/==========
|
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n992dn(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:54 pm Post subject: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? |
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Hummmmm
If thats the case, let me think again...
Nati
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:
[quote] Nati,
Sorry, I only showed the electrical and did not explain the mechanics of the operation.
The micro-switches will be located in a channel with the ability to move them to adjust the positions. A slide bar will be attached to the trim control arm. The slide bar will close each switch in line during the retract operation and open each in line during the extend. During the retract operation only the retract circuit will be powered by the rotary switch with the intent of full retraction and not stepped retraction. During extension, only one circuit can be active at any time and that circuit will close as soon as the slide bar passes the switch allowing it to open. The indicator lights will only light when the desired circuit is active and the switch is open. It should allow for either stepped flap extension or full extension with one operation.
Bob
From: Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com (n992dn(at)gmail.com)>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Fri, September 14, 2012 10:14:26 PM
Subject: Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
Rob
It will not work.
I understand the KIS approach that leads you to use relays/micro switches only. Unfortunately designing such thing will require some level of electronic involves and the reason for it is that you need to know at all times what the position of the flaps is because you need to tell the motor to which direction to go, up/down. Using micro switch as a location sensing lacks this capability, it “senses” at only one position, the position to which you set it mechanically along the motor travel. The moment the motor moves from that position you have no indication of where you are. The most common sense to use as sensing device would be a potentiometer, and then you need some electronics to sense and compare (comparators). I would even think basing the design on the LM3914 10 LED driver.
When it was time for me to change the flap system on my RANS 6 from manual to electric I thought, as an electronic fan about deferent designs but eventually find myself using this:
http://www.e-motionllc.com/Feedback_actuator_p/fa-po-150-12-2.htm
As the actuator (it has built in potentiometer)
And this as a controller.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/electronicsflapcontroller.php
A little pricy, I know but works, I love every second flying the 6 with this arrangement
Nati
RANS 6
Illinois
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:
| Quote: |
All,
Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe this setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay.
Bob Reed
om/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.mhref="http://forums.matronics.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http:/==========
|
| Quote: |
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
[b]
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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n992dn(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:42 pm Post subject: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? |
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Bob
Now, that I understand the mechanical design I have a solution including to the “moving from any position to any position up/down” can you send me the diagram in a format other than PDF and I will returned it corrected? Now that I understand I really the simplicity of it.
Nati
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:
[quote] Nati,
Sorry, I only showed the electrical and did not explain the mechanics of the operation.
The micro-switches will be located in a channel with the ability to move them to adjust the positions. A slide bar will be attached to the trim control arm. The slide bar will close each switch in line during the retract operation and open each in line during the extend. During the retract operation only the retract circuit will be powered by the rotary switch with the intent of full retraction and not stepped retraction. During extension, only one circuit can be active at any time and that circuit will close as soon as the slide bar passes the switch allowing it to open. The indicator lights will only light when the desired circuit is active and the switch is open. It should allow for either stepped flap extension or full extension with one operation.
Bob
From: Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com (n992dn(at)gmail.com)>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Fri, September 14, 2012 10:14:26 PM
Subject: Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
Rob
It will not work.
I understand the KIS approach that leads you to use relays/micro switches only. Unfortunately designing such thing will require some level of electronic involves and the reason for it is that you need to know at all times what the position of the flaps is because you need to tell the motor to which direction to go, up/down. Using micro switch as a location sensing lacks this capability, it “senses” at only one position, the position to which you set it mechanically along the motor travel. The moment the motor moves from that position you have no indication of where you are. The most common sense to use as sensing device would be a potentiometer, and then you need some electronics to sense and compare (comparators). I would even think basing the design on the LM3914 10 LED driver.
When it was time for me to change the flap system on my RANS 6 from manual to electric I thought, as an electronic fan about deferent designs but eventually find myself using this:
http://www.e-motionllc.com/Feedback_actuator_p/fa-po-150-12-2.htm
As the actuator (it has built in potentiometer)
And this as a controller.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/electronicsflapcontroller.php
A little pricy, I know but works, I love every second flying the 6 with this arrangement
Nati
RANS 6
Illinois
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:
| Quote: |
All,
Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe this setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay.
Bob Reed
om/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.mhref="http://forums.matronics.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http:/==========
|
| Quote: |
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
[b]
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ransman
Joined: 08 Aug 2008
Posts: 8
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:49 am Post subject: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? |
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Robert Reed skrev 2012-09-15 01:51:
| Quote: |
All,
Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe this setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay.
Bob Reed
|
Hi folks!
I know a guy who already made this working with a microprocessor-thing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY7OYysvW_8
Sauli
[quote][b]
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He flies with his own wings |
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LynnCole(at)foxvalley.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:36 am Post subject: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? |
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Very nice! However, did I hear a little overshoot followed by a slight reversal when the intermediate positions were selected?
-----
Lynn Cole
LynnCole(at)foxvalley.net (LynnCole(at)foxvalley.net)
On Sep 14, 2012, at 7:55 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote:
| Quote: | v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]--> st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } <![endif]-->
Robert see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcBvmL-FxYQ
It’s a demo of a flap controller that uses a pot for position-sense & is field_programmable.
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Reed
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 16:52
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
All,
Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe this setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay.
Bob Reed
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n992dn(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:40 pm Post subject: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? |
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Bob
Here is something that will work for you: from any to any (position), with
limit switches and based on electromechanical (relays 7 of them they can
be very small) and 11 diodes, more complex but it will work
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n992dn(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:28 pm Post subject: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? |
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Bob
Couple of days ago Ii sent you a diagram of a design that should work. I understand from your silence that you are shocked from the complex and convoluted design J..... Since then I cleaned the diagram and came up with simplified design (only three relays, two of them are small, light duty ones)
Let me know if you are interested
Nati
On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com (n992dn(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]
Bob
Here is something that will work for you: from any to any (position), with limit switches and based on electromechanical (relays 7 of them they can be very small) and 11 diodes, more complex but it will work
.
For that to work properly you will need to modify the mechanical design in a way that only one micro switch is make at a time, you will also have different LED indication compared to your design: only one LED will be lit at a time indicating current flap position.
Have fun
Nati On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com (n992dn(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Bob
Now, that I understand the mechanical design I have a solution including to the “moving from any position to any position up/down” can you send me the diagram in a format other than PDF and I will returned it corrected? Now that I understand I really the simplicity of it.
Nati
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Nati,
Sorry, I only showed the electrical and did not explain the mechanics of the operation.
The micro-switches will be located in a channel with the ability to move them to adjust the positions. A slide bar will be attached to the trim control arm. The slide bar will close each switch in line during the retract operation and open each in line during the extend. During the retract operation only the retract circuit will be powered by the rotary switch with the intent of full retraction and not stepped retraction. During extension, only one circuit can be active at any time and that circuit will close as soon as the slide bar passes the switch allowing it to open. The indicator lights will only light when the desired circuit is active and the switch is open. It should allow for either stepped flap extension or full extension with one operation.
Bob
From: Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com (n992dn(at)gmail.com)>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Fri, September 14, 2012 10:14:26 PM
Subject: Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
Rob
It will not work.
I understand the KIS approach that leads you to use relays/micro switches only. Unfortunately designing such thing will require some level of electronic involves and the reason for it is that you need to know at all times what the position of the flaps is because you need to tell the motor to which direction to go, up/down. Using micro switch as a location sensing lacks this capability, it “senses” at only one position, the position to which you set it mechanically along the motor travel. The moment the motor moves from that position you have no indication of where you are. The most common sense to use as sensing device would be a potentiometer, and then you need some electronics to sense and compare (comparators). I would even think basing the design on the LM3914 10 LED driver.
When it was time for me to change the flap system on my RANS 6 from manual to electric I thought, as an electronic fan about deferent designs but eventually find myself using this:
http://www.e-motionllc.com/Feedback_actuator_p/fa-po-150-12-2.htm
As the actuator (it has built in potentiometer)
And this as a controller.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/electronicsflapcontroller.php
A little pricy, I know but works, I love every second flying the 6 with this arrangement
Nati
RANS 6
Illinois
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:
| Quote: |
All,
Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe this setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay.
Bob Reed
om/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.mhref="http://forums.matronics.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http:/==========
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:02 am Post subject: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? |
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At 12:28 AM 9/19/2012, you wrote:
| Quote: | Bob
Couple of days ago Ii sent you a diagram of a design that should
work. I understand from your silence that you are shocked from the
complex and convoluted design J..... Since then I cleaned the
diagram and came up with simplified design (only three relays, two
of them are small, light duty ones)
Let me know if you are interested
|
Not sure about what you are asking of me. I've followed
the thread of discussion. You were getting the attention
of several folk skilled in the deduction of functionality
and dissection for potential failure.
I've generally counseled caution and considered restraint
when it come to attaching motors to flight controls.
We used a LOT of such motors on the heavy iron birds and
for 99.99% of the time, the designs were golden for convenience
to the pilot and reduction of risk.
A flap lowered by pulling up a handle on the floor
is generally free of risk for un-commanded motion.
Although I think I recall reading of an incident where
the worn ratchet mechanism on a Johnson bar flap handle
failed and produced an un-commanded retraction.
I spend a lot of my boss's money tracking down root
cause for a series of runaway roll trim incidents on
. . . on a design that was 35 years old and rose out of
a combination of production changes over decades.
That was an interesting study in the laws of unintended
and unforeseen consequences and had a really surprising
outcome. I'll see if I can dig up reports I did on that
study and share them.
My first question for evaluating any proposed 'convenience'
is cost of ownership and assessment of added risk.
Is this device going to improve the manner in which the
airplane can be operated? What are the trade-offs for adding
complexity to the system in exchange for convenience and
adding risk for un-commanded motion?
Please understand that not for on minute do I suggest
that discussions around your proposal have no value. They
are of great value whether or not the system is ultimately
installed on an airplane. Any exercise in crafting and
meeting design goals validated by a satisfactory assessment
for cost of ownership and risk is exactly what we got
paid for on the TC side of the house. Not EVERY idea ran
the gauntlet of well considered critical review and found
its way onto an airplane . . . in fact, MOST did not. But
those ideas that did make it production were the collective
best-we-knew-how-to-do and the study of EVERY idea was a
learning experience.
If your question concerns my assessment of function, benefit
and risk, I'll have to study the latest iteration of your idea.
I'm not sure which drawing is the latest. Can you re-post it?
Bob . . .
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Robert Reed
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:07 am Post subject: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? |
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Nati,
I looked at your diagram and was adimttedly very confused by it. It seemed to lose much of the desired KISS goal that I was trying to achieve but I didn't have the time to give it the attention it deserved. In subsequent discussions with a friend who has a plane like the one I am building the subject has turned to an even simpler design that didn't rely on step switches at all but simply used them for indicator lights. Several people I have talked with preferred only the absolute limit switches with a momentary switch for up and down only. They were recommending putting the switch on the stick so that it could be more easily activated without having to reach for a console switch. That has certain appeal but I have always found the switched on the controls to be somewhat unreliable and tried to stay away from them.
I am still considering all alternatives and would be interested in seeing what you worked up though.
Bob Reed
From: Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wed, September 19, 2012 12:30:03 AM
Subject: Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
Bob
Couple of days ago Ii sent you a diagram of a design that should work. I understand from your silence that you are shocked from the complex and convoluted design J..... Since then I cleaned the diagram and came up with simplified design (only three relays, two of them are small, light duty ones)
Let me know if you are interested
Nati
On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com (n992dn(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]
Bob
Here is something that will work for you: from any to any (position), with limit switches and based on electromechanical (relays 7 of them they can be very small) and 11 diodes, more complex but it will work
.
For that to work properly you will need to modify the mechanical design in a way that only one micro switch is make at a time, you will also have different LED indication compared to your design: only one LED will be lit at a time indicating current flap position.
Have fun
Nati On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com (n992dn(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Bob
Now, that I understand the mechanical design I have a solution including to the “moving from any position to any position up/down” can you send me the diagram in a format other than PDF and I will returned it corrected? Now that I understand I really the simplicity of it.
Nati
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Nati,
Sorry, I only showed the electrical and did not explain the mechanics of the operation.
The micro-switches will be located in a channel with the ability to move them to adjust the positions. A slide bar will be attached to the trim control arm. The slide bar will close each switch in line during the retract operation and open each in line during the extend. During the retract operation only the retract circuit will be powered by the rotary switch with the intent of full retraction and not stepped retraction. During extension, only one circuit can be active at any time and that circuit will close as soon as the slide bar passes the switch allowing it to open. The indicator lights will only light when the desired circuit is active and the switch is open. It should allow for either stepped flap extension or full extension with one operation.
Bob
From: Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com (n992dn(at)gmail.com)>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Fri, September 14, 2012 10:14:26 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
Rob
It will not work.
I understand the KIS approach that leads you to use relays/micro switches only. Unfortunately designing such thing will require some level of electronic involves and the reason for it is that you need to know at all times what the position of the flaps is because you need to tell the motor to which direction to go, up/down. Using micro switch as a location sensing lacks this capability, it “senses” at only one position, the position to which you set it mechanically along the motor travel. The moment the motor moves from that position you have no indication of where you are. The most common sense to use as sensing device would be a potentiometer, and then you need some electronics to sense and compare (comparators). I would even think basing the design on the LM3914 10 LED driver.
When it was time for me to change the flap system on my RANS 6 from manual to electric I thought, as an electronic fan about deferent designs but eventually find myself using this:
http://www.e-motionllc.com/Feedback_actuator_p/fa-po-150-12-2.htm
As the actuator (it has built in potentiometer)
And this as a controller.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/electronicsflapcontroller.php
A little pricy, I know but works, I love every second flying the 6 with this arrangement
Nati
RANS 6
Illinois
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:
| Quote: |
All,
Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe this setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay.
Bob Reed
om/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.mhref="http://forums.matronics.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http:/==========
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| Quote: |
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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n992dn(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:11 pm Post subject: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? |
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Bob
Sorry
I was out of the country on business trip, did not see your reply.
I totally agree with the KISS approach. The problem is that the moment you ask for preset flap controller, it becomes hard to keep it simple, (unless you employ some simple electronics)
See the simpler version of four positions flap controller that uses no electronics beside few relays and diodes and it is not so confusing and convoluted that the first one.
Will be happy to discuss.
Nati
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Nati,
I looked at your diagram and was adimttedly very confused by it. It seemed to lose much of the desired KISS goal that I was trying to achieve but I didn't have the time to give it the attention it deserved. In subsequent discussions with a friend who has a plane like the one I am building the subject has turned to an even simpler design that didn't rely on step switches at all but simply used them for indicator lights. Several people I have talked with preferred only the absolute limit switches with a momentary switch for up and down only. They were recommending putting the switch on the stick so that it could be more easily activated without having to reach for a console switch. That has certain appeal but I have always found the switched on the controls to be somewhat unreliable and tried to stay away from them.
I am still considering all alternatives and would be interested in seeing what you worked up though.
Bob Reed
From: Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com (n992dn(at)gmail.com)>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Wed, September 19, 2012 12:30:03 AM
Subject: Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
Bob
Couple of days ago Ii sent you a diagram of a design that should work. I understand from your silence that you are shocked from the complex and convoluted design J..... Since then I cleaned the diagram and came up with simplified design (only three relays, two of them are small, light duty ones)
Let me know if you are interested
Nati
On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com (n992dn(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Bob
Here is something that will work for you: from any to any (position), with limit switches and based on electromechanical (relays 7 of them they can be very small) and 11 diodes, more complex but it will work
.
For that to work properly you will need to modify the mechanical design in a way that only one micro switch is make at a time, you will also have different LED indication compared to your design: only one LED will be lit at a time indicating current flap position.
Have fun
Nati On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com (n992dn(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Bob
Now, that I understand the mechanical design I have a solution including to the “moving from any position to any position up/down” can you send me the diagram in a format other than PDF and I will returned it corrected? Now that I understand I really the simplicity of it.
Nati
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Nati,
Sorry, I only showed the electrical and did not explain the mechanics of the operation.
The micro-switches will be located in a channel with the ability to move them to adjust the positions. A slide bar will be attached to the trim control arm. The slide bar will close each switch in line during the retract operation and open each in line during the extend. During the retract operation only the retract circuit will be powered by the rotary switch with the intent of full retraction and not stepped retraction. During extension, only one circuit can be active at any time and that circuit will close as soon as the slide bar passes the switch allowing it to open. The indicator lights will only light when the desired circuit is active and the switch is open. It should allow for either stepped flap extension or full extension with one operation.
Bob
From: Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com (n992dn(at)gmail.com)>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Fri, September 14, 2012 10:14:26 PM
Subject: Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
Rob
It will not work.
I understand the KIS approach that leads you to use relays/micro switches only. Unfortunately designing such thing will require some level of electronic involves and the reason for it is that you need to know at all times what the position of the flaps is because you need to tell the motor to which direction to go, up/down. Using micro switch as a location sensing lacks this capability, it “senses” at only one position, the position to which you set it mechanically along the motor travel. The moment the motor moves from that position you have no indication of where you are. The most common sense to use as sensing device would be a potentiometer, and then you need some electronics to sense and compare (comparators). I would even think basing the design on the LM3914 10 LED driver.
When it was time for me to change the flap system on my RANS 6 from manual to electric I thought, as an electronic fan about deferent designs but eventually find myself using this:
http://www.e-motionllc.com/Feedback_actuator_p/fa-po-150-12-2.htm
As the actuator (it has built in potentiometer)
And this as a controller.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/electronicsflapcontroller.php
A little pricy, I know but works, I love every second flying the 6 with this arrangement
Nati
RANS 6
Illinois
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:
| Quote: |
All,
Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe this setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay.
Bob Reed
om/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.mhref="http://forums.matronics.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http:/==========
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