Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - 914 surging/loss of power

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

914 surging/loss of power

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 649

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:47 pm Post subject: 914 surging/loss of power

We are stuck in Lamar CO with 914 problems.  Have spent most of the day talking to Bud for ideas. Flew about 4 hours yesterday, stopped for fuel and lunch.  Takeoff was normal but when leveled off, noted fuel flow was only 3.5 gph, not the expected 5.5.  Increasing throttle gave more MP but same fuel flow.  Engine felt rough or different than normal.



Landed and inspected under cowl - no problem noted.  We had just gotten fuel so thought maybe that caused it.   Tried flight this morning when it was cooler, had to make emergency landing because power dropped soon after takeoff.  No vibration, just wouldn't climb.  Found that our fuel tank vent was plugged, cleared it, ran ground tests & Jim did 20 minute solo test flight with no problem.  Loaded plane & departed again, engine power dropped just after gear retract, made another emergency landing.  (Obvious answer is don't let Heather in the plane   )  



At this point we're thinking pull carbs for rebuild.  Any other ideas?



Thanks, Jim & Heather N241BW

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:39 pm Post subject: 914 surging/loss of power

Jim & Heather,



I don't know if this has been suggested by anyone else, but check the carb bowl pressurization lines from the air box to the carbs.  If there's a leak somewhere along there, it could prevent your carbs from being able to deliver sufficient fuel under boost.  In the attached PDF file these lines are RED, GREY/WHITE STRIPE and YELLOW.  Check VERY carefully!  I had two hidden that took three or four searches to locate.  Look carefully at any connection from line to fitting.



If that all checks out OK, then you might also check the carb bowl pressure shuttle (92 in the PDF) which transfers from lower pressure input to higher pressure input when you go to high boost.  This can be checked by making the purple connection.  Disconnect the YELLOW line from the shuttle and the RED line from the airbox.  Connect the YELLOW line to the airbox where the RED line was removed.  This information was provided by the folks up at Rotax Owner dot Com and they said that it will not harm anything to run like this till you can get home and get a replacement shuttle.





I hope this helps.  Good luck!



Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com



On Oct 21, 2012, at 4:47 PM, "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net> wrote:






We are stuck in Lamar CO with 914 problems.  Have spent most of the day talking to Bud for ideas. Flew about 4 hours yesterday, stopped for fuel and lunch.  Takeoff was normal but when leveled off, noted fuel flow was only 3.5 gph, not the expected 5.5.  Increasing throttle gave more MP but same fuel flow.  Engine felt rough or different than normal.



Landed and inspected under cowl - no problem noted.  We had just gotten fuel so thought maybe that caused it.   Tried flight this morning when it was cooler, had to make emergency landing because power dropped soon after takeoff.  No vibration, just wouldn't climb.  Found that our fuel tank vent was plugged, cleared it, ran ground tests & Jim did 20 minute solo test flight with no problem.  Loaded plane & departed again, engine power dropped just after gear retract, made another emergency landing.  (Obvious answer is don't let Heather in the plane  [Wink] )  



At this point we're thinking pull carbs for rebuild.  Any other ideas?



Thanks, Jim & Heather N241BW

ref_lines.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

ref_lines.pdf

Filesize:

142.33 KB

Downloaded:

445 Time(s)

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:44 pm Post subject: 914 surging/loss of power

Jim & Heather,



Also, check the pressure line from the airbox to the fuel pressure regulator.  This keeps fuel pressure above airbox pressure ensuring sufficient fuel pressure to overcome boost pressure.  As with the other lines, check thoroughly where the rubber hose meets a connector.  These areas are prone to splitting.



Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com



On Oct 21, 2012, at 4:47 PM, "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net> wrote:






We are stuck in Lamar CO with 914 problems.  Have spent most of the day talking to Bud for ideas. Flew about 4 hours yesterday, stopped for fuel and lunch.  Takeoff was normal but when leveled off, noted fuel flow was only 3.5 gph, not the expected 5.5.  Increasing throttle gave more MP but same fuel flow.  Engine felt rough or different than normal.



Landed and inspected under cowl - no problem noted.  We had just gotten fuel so thought maybe that caused it.   Tried flight this morning when it was cooler, had to make emergency landing because power dropped soon after takeoff.  No vibration, just wouldn't climb.  Found that our fuel tank vent was plugged, cleared it, ran ground tests & Jim did 20 minute solo test flight with no problem.  Loaded plane & departed again, engine power dropped just after gear retract, made another emergency landing.  (Obvious answer is don't let Heather in the plane  [Wink] )  



At this point we're thinking pull carbs for rebuild.  Any other ideas?



Thanks, Jim & Heather N241BW





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385747#385747

Rocketman

Joined: 07 Sep 2010
Posts: 87
Location: USA, Earth

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:09 am Post subject: 914 surging/loss of power

Restricted fuel lines/filters?



On 10/21/2012 4:47 PM, h&amp;jeuropa wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 We are stuck in Lamar CO with 914 problems.  Have spent most of the day talking to Bud for ideas. Flew about 4 hours yesterday, stopped for fuel and lunch.  Takeoff was normal but when leveled off, noted fuel flow was only 3.5 gph, not the expected 5.5.  Increasing throttle gave more MP but same fuel flow.  Engine felt rough or different than normal.



 Landed and inspected under cowl - no problem noted.  We had just gotten fuel so thought maybe that caused it.   Tried flight this morning when it was cooler, had to make emergency landing because power dropped soon after takeoff.  No vibration, just wouldn't climb.  Found that our fuel tank vent was plugged, cleared it, ran ground tests & Jim did 20 minute solo test flight with no problem.  Loaded plane & departed again, engine power dropped just after gear retract, made another emergency landing.  (Obvious answer is don't let Heather in the plane  [Wink] )



 At this point we're thinking pull carbs for rebuild.  Any other ideas?



 Thanks, Jim & Heather N241BW





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385747#385747

ploucandco

Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 69

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:42 am Post subject: Re: 914 surging/loss of power

Jim,



I got about the same issue with my 914 some months ago. At full power, the engine run fine or didn't give full power (oscillating RPMs) depending on the time of the day and the ambient temperature (typically more than 30C). 



After checking many different items (took some weeks), I found 2 mojor items. I replaced the rubber flanges between the manifold and the carbs. One was not hermetic. The other item was to clean up all fuel lines. The grid of my gascolator had a hole and many particles found their way till the pumps. That cleared up the surging/loss of power issue and further enjoyed my Europa for some long trips 



Hope this helps.



Kind regards, Jacques.

acrojim7534(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:31 am Post subject: 914 surging/loss of power

Jeff, check the throttle cable, where it attaches to  the arm, on the exhaust pipe, if its worn it may-be bending, instead of moving  the turbo arm...At 700 hours I had to replace the cable

 

 



    

From: Jeff B <topglock(at)cox.net>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

Sent: Monday, October 22, 2012 12:08 PM

Subject: Re: 914 surging/loss of power

--> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff B <topglock(at)cox.net (topglock(at)cox.net)>



Restricted fuel lines/filters?



On 10/21/2012 4:47 PM, h&amp;jeuropa wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Europa-List message  posted by: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)>



 We are stuck in Lamar CO with 914 problems.  Have spent most of the day talking to Bud for ideas. Flew about 4 hours yesterday, stopped for fuel and lunch.  Takeoff was normal but when leveled off, noted fuel flow was only 3.5 gph, not the expected 5.5.  Increasing throttle gave more MP but same fuel flow.  Engine felt rough or different than normal.



 Landed and inspected under cowl - no problem noted.  We had just gotten fuel so thought maybe that caused it.  Tried flight this morning when it was cooler, had to make emergency landing because power dropped soon after takeoff.  No vibration, just wouldn't climb.  Found that our fuel tank vent was plugged, cleared it, ran ground tests & Jim did 20 minute solo test flight with no problem.  Loaded  plane & departed again, engine power dropped just after gear retract, made another emergency landing.  (Obvious answer is don't let Heather in the plane  [Wink] )



 At this point we're thinking pull carbs for rebuild.  Any other ideas?



 Thanks, Jim & Heather N241BW





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385747#385747



&g href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target=_blank>ht                   -Matt Drall============
	


 [quote][b]

acrojim7534(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:31 am Post subject: 914 surging/loss of power

Jeff. .at about 700 hours I had the same problem, with engine surging.  After replacement of new throttle cable,

 The engine was back to normal.

 

 

    

From: Jeff B <topglock(at)cox.net>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

Sent: Monday, October 22, 2012 12:08 PM

Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 surging/loss of power

--> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff B <topglock(at)cox.net (topglock(at)cox.net)>



Restricted fuel lines/filters?



On 10/21/2012 4:47 PM, h&amp;jeuropa  wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Europa-List message posted by: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)>



 We are stuck in Lamar CO with 914 problems.  Have spent most of the day talking to Bud for ideas. Flew about 4 hours yesterday, stopped for fuel and lunch.  Takeoff was normal but when leveled off, noted fuel flow was only 3.5 gph, not the expected 5.5.  Increasing throttle gave more MP but same fuel flow.  Engine felt rough or different than normal.



 Landed and inspected under cowl - no problem noted.  We had just gotten fuel so thought maybe that caused it.  Tried flight this morning when it was cooler, had to make emergency landing because power dropped soon after takeoff.  No vibration, just wouldn't climb.  Found that our fuel tank vent was plugged, cleared it, ran ground tests  & Jim did 20 minute solo test flight with no problem.  Loaded plane & departed again, engine power dropped just after gear retract, made another emergency landing.  (Obvious answer is don't let Heather in the plane  [Wink] )



 At this point we're thinking pull carbs for rebuild.  Any other ideas?



 Thanks, Jim & Heather N241BW





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385747#385747



http://w;                 -Matt Dralle, Lis


	






 [quote][b]

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 649

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:55 am Post subject: Re: 914 surging/loss of power

An update, fuel tank vent restriction.



We trailered our Europa home from Colorado and commenced with the annual condition inspection.  As part of that, we sent out the carbs for overhaul - no problems noted.  We replaced all the 4mm turbo control hoses per the 5 year requirement - no defective hoses were found.  The carb sockets were updated to the latest specification 2 years ago and inspection showed no cracks.  A few hours prior to this trip we had inspected all fuel filters including the ones in the electric pumps.  No debris was found - we haven't had debris in the filters in several years.



What we did find were restrictions in the fuel tank venting system.  The result of these restrictions is that the fuel flow was limited to the amount of air that could get by the restrictions which was way less than 5 to 6 gallons per hour that we normally use at cruise!



We have a modified fuel vent system, similar to that described on Custom Flight Creations website.  The tank vent (Tygon SE 200 fuel line tubing) leads to the top of the cobra where it is connected to the cobra.  From the top of the cobra, a vent line (more Tygon SE200) goes over the head of the cobra to the belly of the fuselage. The sight gauge vent and long range tank vent join together and go over the top of the cobra independent of the fuel tank vent.  All three vents join together a foot below the top of the cobra and then a single tube goes to the belly vent. The vent on the belly is fabricated similar to the build manual instructions for the original factory vent on the top of the fuselage - it is a piece of 1/8" tubing bent to face forward into the airstream and has two 1/8" bypass holes in the rear in case the main opening gets clogged.



In Colorado we discovered the belly vent was packed full of debris.  There was even debris sticking out of one the bypass holes.  We managed to clear and clean that vent tube using carb cleaner in an aerosol can.  We did this before the test flight.  It was really plugged because it is difficult to access on preflight and difficult to tell if it has debris.  In our case we hadn't blown it out in several years and between a little oil from the engine and operating mostly off grass strips a oily  mess accumulated.  We have added cleaning the belly vent with aerosol cleaner to our condition inspection checklist!



In Colorado we also noticed that the Tygon tubing going over the cobra looked a little kinked, but figured it hadn't changed or gotten more kinked during this trip.  But now we think that it did.  On this trip we filled the tank all the way up into the neck of the cobra to have the maximum amount of fuel on board.  We also added a quart of oil about 10 hours before all these problems - but that  actually overfilled the oil tank  and caused it to blow by and out the oil tank vent onto the belly of the airplane helping plug the fuel tank vent.  With the belly vent blocked or nearly so, there was very little air available to replace the fuel being drawn from the tank, so the air space in the top of the tank and in the vent line was being put under vacuum which caused the tygon tubing to kink more.  



We did one test flight in Colorado  and the engine ran normally.  However that was after using a few gallons of fuel doing all kinds of ground tests, so there was more air  space in the fuel tank and the tank walls could collapse a little.  But we topped up into the cobra again before our last departure and subsequent precautionary landing.



So we have replaced the tygon tubing with aluminum tubing over the cobra head to prevent kinking in the future.  We also moved the return line from the fuel regulator from the bottom of the fuel tank to the top of the tank because our tech adviser advised that certificated aircraft do not return fuel to the bottom of the tank.



We've only made a couple test flights since (runway is snow covered now) but they were normal.



The big learning experiences: be sure the fuel tank vent on the belly is clear,  be sure there are no kinks or restrictions in the fuel tank vent system and clean the belly tank vent thoroughly every condition inspection.



Funny how we always thought about the fuel tank vent system in terms of space for fuel to expand while sitting in the sun and in terms of letting air out of the tank during refueling, but we never thought about it's most important job of letting air into the tank to replace fuel consumed!



Jim & Heather

N241BW

XS Mono, 914, Airmaster

425 hours

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:22 pm Post subject: 914 surging/loss of power

Jim and Heather,

Happy New Year.

One of the reasons for having the fuel vent on top of the fuselage, as the Company dictated, was for that reason. I remember asking the company about putting it below as it does look aesthetically more pleasing. It still amazes me how much debris gets thrown up on the underside of the fuselage damaging the tail wheel fairing and spring arm. Mixed with exhaust can make it hard to clean as well.



All the best,



Tim



Tim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street

Fendalton,

Christchurch,  8052

New Zealand.



ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz



Ph 64 3 3515166

Mob 0210640221

On 1/01/2013, at 8:55 AM, "h&jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 An update, fuel tank vent restriction.

 

 We trailered our Europa home from Colorado and commenced with the annual condition inspection.  As part of that, we sent out the carbs for overhaul - no problems noted.  We replaced all the 4mm turbo control hoses per the 5 year requirement - no defective hoses were found.  The carb sockets were updated to the latest specification 2 years ago and inspection showed no cracks.  A few hours prior to this trip we had inspected all fuel filters including the ones in the electric pumps.  No debris was found - we haven't had debris in the filters in several years.

 

 What we did find were restrictions in the fuel tank venting system.  The result of these restrictions is that the fuel flow was limited to the amount of air that could get by the restrictions which was way less than 5 to 6 gallons per hour that we normally use at cruise!

 

 We have a modified fuel vent system, similar to that described on Custom Flight Creations website.  The tank vent (Tygon SE 200 fuel line tubing) leads to the top of the cobra where it is connected to the cobra.  From the top of the cobra, a vent line (more Tygon SE200) goes over the head of the cobra to the belly of the fuselage. The sight gauge vent and long range tank vent join together and go over the top of the cobra independent of the fuel tank vent.  All three vents join together a foot below the top of the cobra and then a single tube goes to the belly vent. The vent on the belly is fabricated similar to the build manual instructions for the original factory vent on the top of the fuselage - it is a piece of 1/8" tubing bent to face forward into the airstream and has two 1/8" bypass holes in the rear in case the main opening gets clogged.

 

 In Colorado we discovered the belly vent was packed full of debris.  There was even debris sticking out of one the bypass holes.  We managed to clear and clean that vent tube using carb cleaner in an aerosol can.  We did this before the test flight.  It was really plugged because it is difficult to access on preflight and difficult to tell if it has debris.  In our case we hadn't blown it out in several years and between a little oil from the engine and operating mostly off grass strips a oily  mess accumulated.  We have added cleaning the belly vent with aerosol cleaner to our condition inspection checklist!

 

 In Colorado we also noticed that the Tygon tubing going over the cobra looked a little kinked, but figured it hadn't changed or gotten more kinked during this trip.  But now we think that it did.  On this trip we filled the tank all the way up into the neck of the cobra to have the maximum amount of fuel on board.  We also added a quart of oil about 10 hours before all these problems - but that  actually overfilled the oil tank  and caused it to blow by and out the oil tank vent onto the belly of the airplane helping plug the fuel tank vent.  With the belly vent blocked or nearly so, there was very little air available to replace the fuel being drawn from the tank, so the air space in the top of the tank and in the vent line was being put under vacuum which caused the tygon tubing to kink more.  

 

 We did one test flight in Colorado  and the engine ran normally.  However that was after using a few gallons of fuel doing all kinds of ground tests, so there was more air  space in the fuel tank and the tank walls could collapse a little.  But we topped up into the cobra again before our last departure and subsequent precautionary landing.

 

 So we have replaced the tygon tubing with aluminum tubing over the cobra head to prevent kinking in the future.  We also moved the return line from the fuel regulator from the bottom of the fuel tank to the top of the tank because our tech adviser advised that certificated aircraft do not return fuel to the bottom of the tank.

 

 We've only made a couple test flights since (runway is snow covered now) but they were normal.

 

 The big learning experiences: be sure the fuel tank vent on the belly is clear,  be sure there are no kinks or restrictions in the fuel tank vent system and clean the belly tank vent thoroughly every condition inspection.

 

 Funny how we always thought about the fuel tank vent system in terms of space for fuel to expand while sitting in the sun and in terms of letting air out of the tank during refueling, but we never thought about it's most important job of letting air into the tank to replace fuel consumed!

 

 Jim & Heather

 N241BW

 XS Mono, 914, Airmaster

 425 hours

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=391288#391288

Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:53 am Post subject: Re: 914 surging/loss of power

Thank you Jim for sharing your findings. Obviously having a bottom  vent facing forward is asking for trouble due to he amount of dirt projected by the mono wheel.  It is always useful to look at what is being done on type certificated aircraft. A good example is the french Jodel series, some of them (Robin DR400) still being in limited production today. Those aircraft have fuselage and wing root tanks with vents at the bottom, some versions having up to four tanks, each with its own vent.  All vents are strait tubing protuding perpendicularly to the slipstream. The effect of the lower pressure (static pressure or possibly some succion instead of total pressure) compared with a facing forward vent is not critical at 13O kts. In some DR400, the main fuselage tank has dual vents, one at the top of the fuselage, the other at the bottom. 

For our Europa, I believe a safe solution is to keep the top vent as per the manual and add a bottom vent perpendicular to the slipstream. The bottom vent acts as an overfill drain and provides some usefull redundancy.  

Good flights in 2013

Remi Guerner

erichdtrombley(at)juno.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:18 pm Post subject: 914 surging/loss of power

 	  Quote: 	
		  Jim wrote:"The big learning experiences: be sure the fuel tank vent on the belly is clear,

be sure there are no kinks or restrictions in the fuel tank vent system and

clean the belly tank vent thoroughly every condition inspection.



Funny how we always thought about the fuel tank vent system in terms of space for

fuel to expand while sitting in the sun and in terms of letting air out of

the tank during refueling, but we never thought about it's most important job

of letting air into the tank to replace fuel consumed!"To help ensure the engine doesn't suddenly go quiet due to a blockage of the vent system I installed a diaphragm check valve via a tee in the vent line.  During normal operations the check valve is closed.  However, if the vent line were to become blocked and a vacuum created in the tank the check valve would open allowing air into the tank from the cabin.Happy New Year,Erich TrombleyN28ET Classic Mono 914   

	
  



____________________________________________________________

Woman is 53 But Looks 25

53/YO Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...

ConsumerLifestyleMag.com [quote][b]

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum