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AirEupora
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 186
Location: Dixon, CA
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 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:36 am Post subject: CHT probes |
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I have been chasing my tail over the last couple of months looking for a cooling problem that might not have been an overheating engine.
I have an MGL Voyager on a Jabiru 3300L. The problem now seems to be the differences between the NEW voltmeter with "K" type probe and the reading that I get off of the MGL EMS unit from the EFIS display.
I'm reading higher on the MGL. Matt has been working with me and is a great guy, but I think both of us are having a problem figuring this out.
I have changed the EMS unit out three times. The CHT probes are the gasket types and I'm thinking now that this is where my problem lie.
The Voltmeter K type is being placed next to the CHT gasket and the readings are taking off the voltmeter then the MGL EFIS.
Ground run up the other day were as follows:
Cyl Voltmeter MGL difference
1 83 105 20
2 116 151 35
3 110 132 22
4 127 162 35
5 100 145 43
6 113 151 38
On the previous EMS unit
Ground run
1 79 96 17
2 72 94 22
3 85 96 11
4 79 105 26
5 76 94 18
6 76 99 23
After flight and de-cowling mVolts
1 113 149 36 3.5
2 126 164 38 3.9
3 121 157 36 4.1
4 123 159 36 4.2
5 111 145 34 4.1
6 120 156 36 4.3
Does many people have any ideals?
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kayberg(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:09 am Post subject: CHT probes |
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Here is what seems obvious to me.
1) the wires to and including the MGL have some resistance, which varies by heat.
2) The variations WHEN UP TO TEMP are predictable, around 37 degrees, so there is no need to change anything, just your mental calibration
3) The probes are remarkably consistant
3) You dont have a problem with overheating
Doug K.
--
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:32 pm Post subject: CHT probes |
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Heat Seeker 1:
When you say GASKET type probes. Are you referring to the RING mount thermocouples that go under the spark plug?
And what are you referring to when you say "NEW voltmeter with'K' type probe"?
Your statements bring up ALL SORTS OF ISSUES because:
1 - The RING type thermocouples ALWAYS READ HIGHER than cylinder hear (DRILLED & MOUNTED) PROBES. They are picking up the heat dissipation of the spark plug AND they are lowering the heat transfer between the spark plug and the cylinder head. Neither case is good. Get rid of RING type thermocouples.
Because of ring type spark plugs will change the operational temp range. They will go UP. Because heat transfer is poor with the ring coupler.
2 - You use the statement "NEW voltmeter with'K' type probe" - K type probes ARE NOT VOLTAGE items. They are CURRENT probes. They produce a very small current and if you are using a volt meter to read them your numbers will not be correct.
3 - CHT & EGT are REFERENCE temperatures. Unless you have a lab type unit where differences in probes can be zeroed out there will be differences in readings. Differences that relate to: a> Length of probe wire. b> How the probe was made; twisted, soldered, or welded. c> Calibration of the readout head. d> Even the number of twists can change the readings.
4 - There are also differences in probes as far as GROUNDED and UN-GROUNDED. You can NOT mix the two. Do yo know exactly what each prop is?
Just to let you know you are not the only one with difference problems with temperatures - E.I. and JPI always show differences in values.
Barry
On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 11:36 AM, AirEupora <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net (AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "AirEupora" <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net (AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net)>
I have been chasing my tail over the last couple of months looking for a cooling problem that might not have been an overheating engine.
I have an MGL Voyager on a Jabiru 3300L. The problem now seems to be the differences between the NEW voltmeter with "K" type probe and the reading that I get off of the MGL EMS unit from the EFIS display.
I'm reading higher on the MGL. Matt has been working with me and is a great guy, but I think both of us are having a problem figuring this out.
I have changed the EMS unit out three times. The CHT probes are the gasket types and I'm thinking now that this is where my problem lie.
The Voltmeter K type is being placed next to the CHT gasket and the readings are taking off the voltmeter then the MGL EFIS.
Ground run up the other day were as follows:
Cyl Voltmeter MGL difference
1 83 105 20
2 116 151 35
3 110 132 22
4 127 162 35
5 100 145 43
6 113 151 38
On the previous EMS unit
Ground run
1 79 96 17
2 72 94 22
3 85 96 11
4 79 105 26
5 76 94 18
6 76 99 23
After flight and de-cowling mVolts
1 113 149 36 3.5
2 126 164 38 3.9
3 121 157 36 4.1
4 123 159 36 4.2
5 111 145 34 4.1
6 120 156 36 4.3
Does many people have any ideals?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387158#387158
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ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
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le, List Admin.
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jwd3ca(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:18 pm Post subject: CHT probes |
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On 11/07/2012 04:31 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
| Quote: | Heat Seeker 1:
When you say GASKET type probes. Are you referring to the RING mount thermocouples that
go under the spark plug?
And what are you referring to when you say "NEW voltmeter with'K' type probe"?
Your statements bring up ALL SORTS OF ISSUES because:
1 - The RING type thermocouples ALWAYS READ HIGHER than cylinder hear (DRILLED & MOUNTED)
PROBES. They are picking up the heat dissipation of the spark plug AND they are lowering
the heat transfer between the spark plug and the cylinder head. Neither case is good.
Get rid of RING type thermocouples.
Because of ring type spark plugs will change the operational temp range. They will go UP.
Because heat transfer is poor with the ring coupler.
2 - You use the statement "NEW voltmeter with'K' type probe" - K type probes ARE NOT
VOLTAGE items. They are CURRENT probes. They produce a very small current and if you are
using a volt meter to read them your numbers will not be correct.
3 - CHT & EGT are REFERENCE temperatures. Unless you have a lab type unit
where differences in probes can be zeroed out there will be differences in readings.
Differences that relate to: a> Length of probe wire. b> How the probe was made; twisted,
soldered, or welded. c> Calibration of the readout head. d> Even the number of twists can
change the readings.
4 - There are also differences in probes as far as GROUNDED and UN-GROUNDED. You can NOT
mix the two. Do yo know exactly what each prop is?
Just to let you know you are not the only one with difference problems with temperatures -
E.I. and JPI always show differences in values.
Barry
|
Excellent post, Barry, many valid points.
| Quote: |
On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 11:36 AM, AirEupora <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net
<mailto:AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net>> wrote:
<mailto:AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net>>
I have been chasing my tail over the last couple of months looking for a cooling
problem that might not have been an overheating engine.
I have an MGL Voyager on a Jabiru 3300L. The problem now seems to be the differences
between the NEW voltmeter with "K" type probe and the reading that I get off of the
MGL EMS unit from the EFIS display.
I'm reading higher on the MGL. Matt has been working with me and is a great guy, but
I think both of us are having a problem figuring this out.
I have changed the EMS unit out three times. The CHT probes are the gasket types and
I'm thinking now that this is where my problem lie.
The Voltmeter K type is being placed next to the CHT gasket and the readings are
taking off the voltmeter then the MGL EFIS.
Ground run up the other day were as follows:
Cyl Voltmeter MGL difference
1 83 105 20
2 116 151 35
3 110 132 22
4 127 162 35
5 100 145 43
6 113 151 38
On the previous EMS unit
Ground run
1 79 96 17
2 72 94 22
3 85 96 11
4 79 105 26
5 76 94 18
6 76 99 23
After flight and de-cowling mVolts
1 113 149 36 3.5
2 126 164 38 3.9
3 121 157 36 4.1
4 123 159 36 4.2
5 111 145 34 4.1
6 120 156 36 4.3
Does many people have any ideals?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387158#387158
===========
="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
le, List Admin.
===========
-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
===========
http://forums.matronics.com
===========
*
*
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--
Regards, J.
- Sonex #325 C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip, Aerocarb
- former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder, CH750 in progress
-----------------------------
J. Davis, M.Sc. (comp sci)
email: jwd3ca at gmail dot com
*NIX consulting, SysAdmin
http://cleco.ca
and now... Deep Thought #61, by Jack Handy
Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct
is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant, and she fell on me. Then it
wouldn't seem quite so funny.
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AirEupora
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 186
Location: Dixon, CA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: CHT probes |
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Heat Seeker 1:
When you say GASKET type probes. �Are you�referring�to the RING mount thermocouples that go under the spark plug? YES
And what are you referring to when you say "NEW voltmeter with'K' type probe"?Sinometer w/bead wire type k themocouple
Your statements bring up ALL SORTS OF ISSUES because:
1 - The RING type thermocouples ALWAYS READ HIGHER than cylinder hear (DRILLED & MOUNTED) PROBES. �They are picking up the heat�dissipation�of the spark plug AND they are lowering the heat transfer between the spark plug and the cylinder head. �Neither case is good. �Get rid of RING type thermocouples.
I'd love to, but who sales the type you are suggesting and where are you attaching it.
Because of ring type spark plugs will change the operational temp range. �They will go UP. Because heat transfer is poor with the ring�coupler.
2 - You use the statement�"NEW voltmeter with'K' type probe" - K type probes ARE NOT VOLTAGE items. �They are CURRENT probes. �They produce a very small current and if you are using a volt meter to read them your numbers will not be correct.
What I'm doing is reading the voltmeter to get the temperature off of the head (ACT) then reading the EFIS.(MGL)
3 - CHT & EGT are�REFERENCE�temperatures. �Unless you have a lab type unit where�differences�in probes can be zeroed out there will be�differences�in readings. �Differences�that relate to: a> Length of probe wire. b> How the probe was made; twisted, soldered, or welded. c> Calibration of the readout head. d> Even the number of twists can change the readings.
I understand this. I'm asking if anybody has had this much of a problem using CHT and the MGL EMS.
4 - There are also�differences�in probes as far as GROUNDED and UN-GROUNDED. �You can NOT mix the two. �Do yo know�exactly�what each prop is?
I have K type probes, if that is what you are asking
Just to let you know you are not the only one with�difference�problems with temperatures - �E.I. and JPI always show differences in values.�
Thanks for the help
Rick
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:34 pm Post subject: CHT probes |
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Rick:
<Rick>-I'd love to, but who sales the type you are suggesting and where are you attaching it.
The attachment point should have been provided by the engine manufacture.
<Rick> -Â What I'm doing is reading the voltmeter to get the temperature off of the head (ACT) then reading the EFIS.(MGL)
Does the voltmeter have a specific scale for temperature and it is set up for K type probes?
Also what is ACT? Â
<Rick> -Â I have K type probes, if that is what you are asking
Yes, Rick, we understand that since you posted that in the original email.
BUT!  They come two ways - Grounded and Un-Grounded.  You have to know which ones to use and that is determined by the manufacture of the readout head.  It should be in the instruction manual for the head... BUT! Again... Are you using a Voltmeter to read temps AND Does the voltmeter have a specific scale for temperature and it is set up for K type probes?
These are the basic question that you have to answer and address before you can do ANY comparison between gauges.  If these are not answered you and your buddy are fishing with out hooks and bait.
Barry
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 8:10 PM, AirEupora <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net (AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "AirEupora" <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net (AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net)>
Heat Seeker 1:
When you say GASKET type probes. �Are you�referring�to the RING mount thermocouples that go under the spark plug?  YES
And what are you referring to when you say "NEW voltmeter with'K' type probe"?Sinometer  w/bead wire type k themocouple
Your statements bring up ALL SORTS OF ISSUES because:
1 - The RING type thermocouples ALWAYS READ HIGHER than cylinder hear (DRILLED & MOUNTED) PROBES. �They are picking up the heat�dissipation�of the spark plug AND they are lowering the heat transfer between the spark plug and the cylinder head. �Neither case is good. �Get rid of RING type thermocouples.
I'd love to, but who sales the type you are suggesting and where are you attaching it.
Because of ring type spark plugs will change the operational temp range. �They will go UP. Because heat transfer is poor with the ring�coupler.
2 - You use the statement�"NEW voltmeter with'K' type probe" - K type probes ARE NOT VOLTAGE items. �They are CURRENT probes. �They produce a very small current and if you are using a volt meter to read them your numbers will not be correct.
What I'm doing is reading the voltmeter to get the temperature off of the head (ACT) then reading the EFIS.(MGL)
3 - CHT & EGT are�REFERENCE�temperatures. �Unless you have a lab type unit where�differences�in probes can be zeroed out there will be�differences�in readings. �Differences�that relate to: a> Length of probe wire. b> How the probe was made; twisted, soldered, or welded. c> Calibration of the readout head. d> Even the number of twists can change the readings.
I understand this. Â I'm asking if anybody has had this much of a problem using CHT and the MGL EMS.
4 - There are also�differences�in probes as far as GROUNDED and UN-GROUNDED. �You can NOT mix the two. �Do yo know�exactly�what each prop is?
I have K type probes, if that is what you are asking
Just to let you know you are not the only one with�difference�problems with temperatures - �E.I. and JPI always show differences in values.�
Thanks for the help
Rick
[b]
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AirEupora
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 186
Location: Dixon, CA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:27 am Post subject: Re: CHT probes |
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The attachment point should have been provided by the engine manufacture. It’s a Jabiru 3300 engine! There they no attach point. The manufacture is using the RING mount thermocouples
Does the voltmeter have a specific scale for temperature and it is set up for K type probes? YES and YES. Scale is “Centigradeâ€
Also what is ACT? Actual readings from Voltmeter
Grounded.
Rick
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:38 pm Post subject: CHT probes |
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AHhhhh Got-cha Rick:
I would NOT use the Ring thermocouples under the spark plugs. As I mentioned they are poor in two ways:
1 - The temps always read high and
2 - They cause the spark plugs to run hot.
Let's add a third reason-
3 - Because of location the readings are not usable for comparison between planes as a reference. EVEN with a plane also equipped with ring probes. Just way too much of a difference in readings.
You mentioned the other unit you used to compare temps; were were those probes attached?
OK, since you are using Grounded probes they are usually a bit less expensive. And they are more common.
Make sure ALL the probes use the SAME colored wire for the Ground connection. Usually it is the WHITE wire, the RED one is the HOT and is kept above Ground.
Go with the other unit and those readings. You have already noted the variance between them is less.
Too many variables equals too many problems.
Barry
AirEupora <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net (AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote: [quote]--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "AirEupora" <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net (AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net)>
The attachment point should have been provided by the engine manufacture. It’s a Jabiru 3300 engine! There they no attach point. The manufacture is using the RING mount thermocouples
Does the voltmeter have a specific scale for temperature and it is set up for K type probes? YES and YES. Scale is “Centigrade”
Also what is ACT? Actual readings from Voltmeter
Grounded.
Rick
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387366#387366
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ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
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le, List Admin.
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pete(at)usjabiru.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:21 am Post subject: CHT probes |
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1 - The temps always read high and
Is this response meant to be serious? The probes read the temperatures that are present. They don’t read high or low – just what they are exposed to.
2 - They cause the spark plugs to run hot.
Not true at all. The spark plugs will heat up beyond their design range only if there is a leak of combustion gas around the plug of cooling flow the cowl is poor.
3 - Because of location the readings are not usable for comparison between planes as a reference. EVEN with a plane also equipped with ring probes. Just way too much of a difference in readings.
It’s not because of the probe location that readings may be different from plane to plane (within the normal variation from probe to probe) but differences in cooling flow from plane to plane.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 10:36 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: CHT probes
AHhhhh Got-cha Rick:
I would NOT use the Ring thermocouples under the spark plugs. As I mentioned they are poor in two ways:
1 - The temps always read high and
2 - They cause the spark plugs to run hot.
Let's add a third reason-
3 - Because of location the readings are not usable for comparison between planes as a reference. EVEN with a plane also equipped with ring probes. Just way too much of a difference in readings.
You mentioned the other unit you used to compare temps; were were those probes attached?
OK, since you are using Grounded probes they are usually a bit less expensive. And they are more common.
Make sure ALL the probes use the SAME colored wire for the Ground connection. Usually it is the WHITE wire, the RED one is the HOT and is kept above Ground.
Go with the other unit and those readings. You have already noted the variance between them is less.
Too many variables equals too many problems.
Barry
AirEupora <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net (AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
012345678901234567
[quote][b]
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:04 pm Post subject: CHT probes |
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Pete:
What I said is 100% correct. You did not read what I posted, you are incorrect making assumptions.
Your understanding or spark plug operation is not correct. Look up Champion Spark Plugs and find the video on how heat range is determined. You will gain a better understanding of their operation and also why heat is a lagging medium. Research Ring Type Thermocouples and you will also gain an insight to their construction and how they do not give proper reading when used under a spark plug.
Your statement on #3 would have been correct IF were were comparing different planes and different engines - The comparison is between different probes on the same engine in the same plane.
Barry
===========================================
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 9:20 AM, Pete Krotje <pete(at)usjabiru.com (pete(at)usjabiru.com)> wrote:
[quote]
1 - The temps always read high and
Is this response meant to be serious? The probes read the temperatures that are present. They don’t read high or low – just what they are exposed to.
2 - They cause the spark plugs to run hot.
Not true at all. The spark plugs will heat up beyond their design range only if there is a leak of combustion gas around the plug of cooling flow the cowl is poor.
3 - Because of location the readings are not usable for comparison between planes as a reference. EVEN with a plane also equipped with ring probes. Just way too much of a difference in readings.
It’s not because of the probe location that readings may be different from plane to plane (within the normal variation from probe to probe) but differences in cooling flow from plane to plane.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 10:36 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: CHT probes
AHhhhh Got-cha Rick:
I would NOT use the Ring thermocouples under the spark plugs. As I mentioned they are poor in two ways:
1 - The temps always read high and
2 - They cause the spark plugs to run hot.
Let's add a third reason-
3 - Because of location the readings are not usable for comparison between planes as a reference. EVEN with a plane also equipped with ring probes. Just way too much of a difference in readings.
You mentioned the other unit you used to compare temps; were were those probes attached?
OK, since you are using Grounded probes they are usually a bit less expensive. And they are more common.
Make sure ALL the probes use the SAME colored wire for the Ground connection. Usually it is the WHITE wire, the RED one is the HOT and is kept above Ground.
Go with the other unit and those readings. You have already noted the variance between them is less.
Too many variables equals too many problems.
Barry
AirEupora <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net (AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
0 12 34 567890 12 345 67
8
[b]
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