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malpass

Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 39
Location: Marietta, Georgia

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:32 am Post subject: batteries and electrical

For years now I have been starting my rotax 582 with a typical lawn mower type battery which is about 3 1/2" x 6" x 6" high, and I get about a year and half to 2 years out of them.  They are cheap ($35) but dont last long.  Just recently I sent my 582 off to be zero timed.  Engine runs good and has kick-ass compression.  So good of compression that the battery now has a little problem initially turning over the engine, but it does though, but delays somewhat every start. These mower batteries are in the range of about 175 cold crank amps, (I think).  So I just bought a new wet cell battery which is advertised as a multipurpose type recreational battery used for motorcycles, jet skis, lawn mowers, ATV's etc.  I looked up the charateristics and it has 275 cold crank amps.  Now my question is:  is there some amp limit for the rotax starter, wiring , solenoid,  with battery power that I should be concerned about?  I have hesitated in trying to crank it up yet as I got concerned after the fact. I want to get my comfort level up a bit, as I dont want to mess up a starter.

 

Thanks for any help with my 582 on a kitfox III turning a Ivo prop, with fiberglass fuel tanks, and yes, I run av-gas with no corn!

 

Bill Malpass

_________________
kitfox III w/ 582 greyhead

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:58 am Post subject: Re: batteries and electrical

If you starter is in good shape it will only draw as much as is needed.



582 does not like extended periods of AVGAS due to lead content

use premium car gas if you worried about ethanol

_________________
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Vic Baker

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 71
Location: Carson City, Nevada

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:21 am Post subject: batteries and electrical

Where can we buy ethanol free premium fuel?

---

_________________
Vic Baker
Series 7
Carson City, Nevada

uuccio(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:46 am Post subject: batteries and electrical

Hi Bill



Ohms law says 



I (amps) = V (volts) / R (ohms),



where V is the voltage applied to the circuit and R is the total resistance of the circuit, I.e. the resistance of the appliance (in this case the starter motor) plus the internal resistance of the battery plus the resistance offered by the wires through which the current flows.



A higher CCA battery is a battery with a smaller internal resistance (you can see this again from Ohms law) so in theory the R above would be slightly lower and slightly more current would flow through the appliance.  But keep in mind that the battery resistance is typically measured in thousandths of Ohms whereas the resistance of the appliance (plus that of the wires) is typically thousands of times larger (think of, say, a 140W appliance drawing 10A at 14V....the resistance it presents is therefore 1.4 Ohms again in virtue of Ohms law)  so the increase in the current in the circuit is going to be negligible. 



All this to say that the only way you can get (significantly) more current flowing through your starter is by increasing the voltage of the battery, not its capacity, so crank away!



Sacha



On 08/dic/2012, at 19:32, "malpass" <malpass-architect(at)att.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 For years now I have been starting my rotax 582 with a typical lawn mower type battery which is about 3 1/2" x 6" x 6" high, and I get about a year and half to 2 years out of them.  They are cheap ($35) but dont last long.  Just recently I sent my 582 off to be zero timed.  Engine runs good and has kick-ass compression.  So good of compression that the battery now has a little problem initially turning over the engine, but it does though, but delays somewhat every start. These mower batteries are in the range of about 175 cold crank amps, (I think).  So I just bought a new wet cell battery which is advertised as a multipurpose type recreational battery used for motorcycles, jet skis, lawn mowers, ATV's etc.  I looked up the charateristics and it has 275 cold crank amps.  Now my question is:  is there some amp limit for the rotax starter, wiring , solenoid,  with battery power that I should be concerned about?  I have hesitated in trying to crank it up yet as I got concerned !

 after the fact. I want to get my comfort level up a bit, as I dont want to mess up a starter.

 

 Thanks for any help with my 582 on a kitfox III turning a Ivo prop, with fiberglass fuel tanks, and yes, I run av-gas with no corn!

 

 Bill Malpass

 

 --------

 kitfox III w/ 582 greyhead

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390062#390062

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:11 pm Post subject: batteries and electrical

anywhere in Ontario Canada where i live.



If you follow my you tube channel you can see the testing i did on rotax 

engines and ethanol gas.



I have used both and no problems with fuel tanks falling apart.



I wil say if you use 10% ethanol that you will get about 10% less milage.

I use only premium for everything- no confusion that way.

cosdt is about 10% higher but I go further

cost effective?   nope but you do use less fuel



as far as octane required we onlyf need regualr gas in our Rotax 582,912UL

912s needs higher octane due to higher compression.





---

malpass

Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 39
Location: Marietta, Georgia

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:17 pm Post subject: batteries and electrical

Dave, are you finding premium gas with no ethanol?



Be great to know, as I would sure you the mo-gas then.



Thanks for the help.

---

_________________
kitfox III w/ 582 greyhead

henrysfork1(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:31 pm Post subject: batteries and electrical

Our local Exon carries premium that is ethinol free 

 

 Dee Y

 KFII N345DY

 KFM 62hp

 

 

 

 

 Sent from Samsung tablet 

 

 Bill Malpass <malpass-architect(at)att.net> wrote:

  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bill Malpass" <malpass-architect(at)att.net>

 

 Dave, are you finding premium gas with no ethanol?

 

 Be great to know, as I would sure you the mo-gas then.

 

 Thanks for the help.

 

 

 ---

Kitfox_Sed

Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 6
Location: Northern Illinois

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: batteries and electrical

The site: http://www.pure-gas.org  shows a station not too far from Carson City that sells Ethanol free gas:



Chevron Station 204464 - CHEVRON

1357 U.S. 395, Gardnerville NV

Ethanol-free octane ratings: 87 89 91 

GPS coordinates: N 38.93735 W 119.74103



-- Paul S

jconnell(at)fmwildblue.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:52 am Post subject: batteries and electrical

Good question Bill.

  

 I’ve been using ATV batteries from a farm and home store in Rochester,  MN.  Mine is a “Magna Power 12N12A-4A-1FP” model.  It’s 5.6 x. 6 x 3  in size.  It’s rated at 113 CCA – rather low.

 I usually fly with them for 2 years then replace them.  I use a small  trickle charger during the flying season.  I give the 582 (gray) a couple  of shots from the primer, then hand-spin the prop a couple of turns (but not  really necessary) before starting it.

  

 I’ve used auto fuel exclusively.  There are 2 locations in Rochester  each with a pump of high octane non-ethanol.  It’s for chain saws lawn  movers, old outboards, old muscle cars and such.  I always test for the  presence of ethanol.

  

 Joe Connell

 Kitfox II w/ 582 greyhead N65JK

  

 Time: 10:33:16 AM PST US

Subject: batteries and  electrical

From: "malpass" <malpass-architect(at)att.net (malpass-architect(at)att.net)>

For  years now I have been starting my rotax 582 with a typical lawn mower  type

battery which is about 3 1/2" x 6" x 6" high, and I get about a year and  half

to 2 years out of them. They are cheap ($35) but dont last long. Just  recently

I sent my 582 off to be zero timed. Engine runs good and has  kick-ass compression.

So good of compression that the battery now has a  little problem initially

turning over the engine, but it does though, but  delays somewhat every

start. These mower batteries are in the range of about  175 cold crank amps, (I

think). So I just bought a new wet cell battery which  is advertised as a multipurpose

type recreational battery used for  motorcycles, jet skis, lawn mowers,

ATV's etc. I looked up the charateristics  and it has 275 cold crank amps.

Now my question is: is there some amp limit  for the rotax starter, wiring ,

solenoid, with battery power that I should be  concerned about? I have hesitated

in trying to crank it up yet as I got  concerned after the fact. I want to

get my comfort level up a bit, as I dont  want to mess up a starter.



Thanks for any help with my 582 on a kitfox  III turning a Ivo prop, with fiberglass

fuel tanks, and yes, I run av-gas  with no corn!



Bill Malpass



--------

kitfox III w/ 582  greyhead

   [quote][b]

mikeperkins

Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:28 am Post subject: Re: batteries and electrical

Bill, 



If with the new battery you're still getting some cranking hesitation, two things: while cranking, look for a more than a half-volt drop between the battery and the starter (using clip leads and a voltmeter); and see if a  Battery Minder charger does a better job of keeping the battery in good condition. 



The difference between a large battery and a small one is internal resistance, so a thicker cable with less resistance can be the same as replacing a smaller battery with a larger one. Increasing cable gauge sometimes is less weight than a larger battery; #4 gauge is a good choice for a 582. Also, shortening the cable by six inches can be effective. Also, the sum of little voltage drops across poor crimps, loose connections, and long/thin cables can add up to be more than the starter can tolerate during engine cranking. 



Batteries used infrequently have a short life; a Battery Minder will improve longevity. A larger battery won't necessarily take longer to charge, but if the smaller battery were not being fully-charged during flight, then the larger battery won't be, either. So charging between flights is a good idea for that reason, and a Battery Minder will do that. Also, a Battery Minder (as opposed to a simple trickle charger) prevents sulfation, which shortens battery life when they are infrequently used.



Hope this helps.

_________________
Mike Perkins
Havana, Illinois
Model I, 532, B gearbox, GSC prop

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