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Ethanol Question

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dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:48 am Post subject: Ethanol Question

All,  

      I've been reading about  this Ethanol gasoline and the fact that it will "Phase Separate" if too  much water is present in the fuel.  Someone mentioned this the other day  and I had no idea what he was talking about.  One article on the Rotax 582  said that if phase separation occurs then you have a good amount of   combined water/ethanol laying somewhere in your system which won't burn.   Also, once phase separation occurs you will loose about 3 points on the octane  rating.  So, 93 octane would be about 90 octane.

     This is really reaching out  there but, what if a person built himself a rig where he could pour in say 5  gallons of gasoline w/ 10% ethanol and "ADD" 1 gallon of water.  Stir  slowly and allow to sit for a period of time.  Design the rig so that the  bottom portion would be small like a funnel and have a valve located above the  accumulated water/ethanol line.  Once the phase separation occurs and all  settles, shut the valve and drain off the water/ethanol.  You end up with  pure gasoline minus 3 octane.

     What do some of you Chemical  Engineers think?  I'm willing to test anything.

  

 Don Smythe

 Too much time on my hands.

kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject: Ethanol Question

interesting concept, Don

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  -------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe(at)cox.net> 

    All,  

      I've been reading about this Ethanol gasoline and the fact that it will "Phase Separate" if too much water is present in the fuel.  Someone mentioned this the other day and I had no idea what he was talking about.  One article on the Rotax 582 said that if phase separation occurs then you have a good amount of  combined water/ethanol laying somewhere in your system which won't burn.  Also, once phase separation occurs you will loose about 3 points on the octane rating.  So, 93 octane would be about 90 octane.

     This is really reaching out there but, what if a person built himself a rig where he could pour in say 5 gallons of gasoline w/ 10% ethanol and "ADD" 1 gallon of water.  Stir slowly and allow to sit for a period of time.  Design the rig so that the bottom portion would be small like a funnel and have a valve located above the accumulated water/ethanol line.  Once the phase separation occurs and all settles, shut the valve and drain off the water/ethanol.  You end up with pure gasoline minus 3 octane.

     What do some of you Chemical Engineers think?  I'm willing to test anything.

  

 Don Smythe

 Too much time on my hands.

rjdaugh(at)rapidnet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:19 pm Post subject: Ethanol Question

Don,  

The basics of what you suggest will work.  BUT,,,,  

   

You are at risk of making a mistake and loading your tank with a little water if you don’t get a good clean phase separation.  Also, as it cools(cold weather flying), more aqueous layer will separate out.  – stuff that was in the gasoline layer at room temperature.  Even with the phase separation, there is some ethanol and water in the gasoline layer and some gasoline in the aqueous layer.  

   

Also, the addition of oil may cause some more water/ethanol layer to separate out.  (If you are feeding a 2-stroke.)  

   

And the last thing that comes to mind immediately is that the difference of 3 octane points may not be precise.  In other words sometimes more than 3 points loss, sometimes less.  

   

And then you will have some gasoline contaminated vodka to dispose of.   Don’t drink it!    

   

But it is a great idea.  Just not one that I would fly behind.  

   

Randy  

     

.             

  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Smythe

 Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 12:44 PM

 To: Kitfox List

 Subject: Ethanol Question  

  

     

All,    

    

     I've been reading about this Ethanol gasoline and the fact that it will "Phase Separate" if too much water is present in the fuel.  Someone mentioned this the other day and I had no idea what he was talking about.  One article on the Rotax 582 said that if phase separation occurs then you have a good amount of  combined water/ethanol laying somewhere in your system which won't burn.  Also, once phase separation occurs you will loose about 3 points on the octane rating.  So, 93 octane would be about 90 octane.  

    

    This is really reaching out there but, what if a person built himself a rig where he could pour in say 5 gallons of gasoline w/ 10% ethanol and "ADD" 1 gallon of water.  Stir slowly and allow to sit for a period of time.  Design the rig so that the bottom portion would be small like a funnel and have a valve located above the accumulated water/ethanol line.  Once the phase separation occurs and all settles, shut the valve and drain off the water/ethanol.  You end up with pure gasoline minus 3 octane.  

    

    What do some of you Chemical Engineers think?  I'm willing to test anything.  

    

   

    

Don Smythe  

    

Too much time on my hands.

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject: Ethanol Question

Randy,

     I use an old saying, "For  every good idea on a Kitfox there are a dozen things (you didn't think  of) that will come out and bite you in the rear.  You sound like you  have some very good knowledge on this subject so I think I'll go with plan  "B".  However, I don't have a plan "B" right at this moment.  Another  old saying, "There is a way"

     BTW, is there a method to  insure a better clean phase separation so that flying behind might be  safer?  I'm talking about a method that can be home made.

  

 Thanks,

 Don Smythe

 Do Not Archive

 [quote]   ---

kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:15 am Post subject: Ethanol Question

what about conducting the process at or below 32 degrees?

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe(at)cox.net> 

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     I use an old saying, "For every good idea on a Kitfox there are a dozen things (you didn't think of) that will come out and bite you in the rear.  You sound like you have some very good knowledge on this subject so I think I'll go with plan "B".  However, I don't have a plan "B" right at this moment.  Another old saying, "There is a way"

     BTW, is there a method to insure a better clean phase separation so that flying behind might be safer?  I'm talking about a method that can be home made.

  

 Thanks,

 Don Smythe

 Do Not Archive

 [quote] ---

rjdaugh(at)rapidnet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:32 am Post subject: Ethanol Question

Don,  

This is a common chemical process operation.  In correctly designed equipment it can be consistently successful if certain complications don’t appear.  Also, chemical plants have analytical QC labs to keep an eye on the process.    

   

The worst complication is contamination with surfactants (soaps or detergents) that stabilize emulsions.  Milk is a stable emulsion.  It should separate into two layers, but it doesn’t (Usually!).  Gas companies often have additive packages that they add to gas so they can justify charging high prices.  – maybe to keep fuel injectors clean….  If these stabilize the emulsion, you will have a hard time getting phase separation.    

   

It is an intriguing idea.  Maybe we should be entrepreneurial and design small units to locate at FBO’s.  These could be complete with instructions, small QC kits and mole sieves swing units to dry the gas after separation.  (This would make the gas safe to use a cold temperatures.)  But it might be easier to buy the gas BEFORE they add the alcohol.  

   

Randy  

     

.             

  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Smythe

 Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 6:02 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Ethanol Question  

  

     

Randy,  

    

    I use an old saying, "For every good idea on a Kitfox there are a dozen things (you didn't think of) that will come out and bite you in the rear.  You sound like you have some very good knowledge on this subject so I think I'll go with plan "B".  However, I don't have a plan "B" right at this moment.  Another old saying, "There is a way"  

    

    BTW, is there a method to insure a better clean phase separation so that flying behind might be safer?  I'm talking about a method that can be home made.  

    

   

    

Thanks,  

    

Don Smythe  

    

Do Not Archive  

  [quote]    

---

mike
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol Question

let me ask these questions, is this problem mainly because of the use of a 2 stroke and the other, is the problem because the fuel will be sitting too long, hence old fuel.  Answer to both, first the four stroke and second, fly two hours a day.

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:52 am Post subject: Ethanol Question

I'm concerned that Ethanol might cause damage to many components of both 2 

and 4 stroke systems.  For example, I just purchased new filters elements w/ 

"O" rings for the Puralator glass filters.  Are the "O" rings compatible 

with Ethanol???  How about the diaphragm in the Mik fuel pumps???  Not to 

mention the fiberglass tanks, low fuel sensors,  gascalators, fuel primer 

and the list goes on.....



Don Smythe

---

kitfoxpilot(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:57 am Post subject: Ethanol Question

I thought the big problem with ethanol or the like was it would disolve the 

coating in the fiberglass tanks thus causing them to leak!



Ray

[quote]From: "Randy  Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh(at)rapidnet.com>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Ethanol Question

Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 09:31:23 -0600



Don,



This is a common chemical process operation.  In correctly designed

equipment it can be consistently successful if certain complications don't

appear.  Also, chemical plants have analytical QC labs to keep an eye on 

the

process.



The worst complication is contamination with surfactants (soaps or

detergents) that stabilize emulsions.  Milk is a stable emulsion.  It 

should

separate into two layers, but it doesn't (Usually!).  Gas companies often

have additive packages that they add to gas so they can justify charging

high prices.  - maybe to keep fuel injectors clean..  If these stabilize 

the

emulsion, you will have a hard time getting phase separation.



It is an intriguing idea.  Maybe we should be entrepreneurial and design

small units to locate at FBO's.  These could be complete with instructions,

small QC kits and mole sieves swing units to dry the gas after separation.

(This would make the gas safe to use a cold temperatures.)  But it might be

easier to buy the gas BEFORE they add the alcohol.



Randy



.



   _____



From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Smythe

Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 6:02 PM

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Ethanol Question



Randy,



     I use an old saying, "For every good idea on a Kitfox there are a 

dozen

things (you didn't think of) that will come out and bite you in the rear.

You sound like you have some very good knowledge on this subject so I think

I'll go with plan "B".  However, I don't have a plan "B" right at this

moment.  Another old saying, "There is a way"



     BTW, is there a method to insure a better clean phase separation so 

that

flying behind might be safer?  I'm talking about a method that can be home

made.



Thanks,



Don Smythe



Do Not Archive



---

mike
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol Question

I went and changed all my hoses to injection hose, ff, I only have clear paper filters, ya I know, but I change them every oil change, cheap. I regularly check the carbs for water, I'm constantly checking all systems on the airplane, I replaced the fuel pump at the ending of last year(600hrs) didn't want to trust it anymore.  I did ask lockwood if the pump was ok for ethanol and they said it was safe.  I have the blue hose where there isn't steel line from the tanks to the firewall and injection line from there to the rest. I fly on the average of 50hrs a month and I haven't had any trouble. When I fly in the winter I switch to 100ll and tcp.

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject: Ethanol Question

Don,



All valid issues.  I remember while in the early building phase, skystar 

offered replacement o-rings for the fuel valve - Viton for the supplied 

N-Buna for those using Mogas.  My guess is that since the filter you are 

using is designed for mogas it will be compatible.



I just went on line to find a metric o-ring for a pressure washer.  O-rings 

are available in numerous materials and cheap.  The $.75 o-ring locally goes 

for $8.00 per fifty on line.  A friend here has the dimensions of the Rotax 

rocker cover o-rings and they are pennies compared to the dollars for the 

"genuine" Rotax part.  Can't help with the diaphragms and other proprietary 

parts, but since there are so many Rotax engines out there - Seadoo, Skidoo 

and aviation, my gurss is that rather than Rotax having all these engines 

retired, they are hard at work developing servicable parts.



Lowell

---

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:38 pm Post subject: Ethanol Question

Lowell old Buddy,

    You are probably right but it doesn't hurt to get a little curious on 

these issues and beat them to death a bit.  I believe that some parts of the 

US have been using Ethanol for some time.  Are there people out there 

pumping Gasoline W/10% Ethanol and having no problems?

    Was talking to a guy yesterday that has an auto fuel STC for his Cessna. 

He's still buying auto gas like crazy with 10% Ethanol.  I believe the STC 

say's, "NO" Ethanol and if Ethanol is all you can get you must switch back 

to 100LL.



Don Smythe

---

gofalke(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:49 pm Post subject: Ethanol Question

Don, and all other 10% ethanol users:

  I am using this stuff for over 4 years without any problems in the Chicago area.

  Herbert Gottelt

  Mount Prospect, IL

  M4-1200,912UL.



Don Smythe <dosmythe(at)cox.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" 



Lowell old Buddy,

You are probably right but it doesn't hurt to get a little curious on 

these issues and beat them to death a bit. I believe that some parts of the 

US have been using Ethanol for some time. Are there people out there 

pumping Gasoline W/10% Ethanol and having no problems?

Was talking to a guy yesterday that has an auto fuel STC for his Cessna. 

He's still buying auto gas like crazy with 10% Ethanol. I believe the STC 

say's, "NO" Ethanol and if Ethanol is all you can get

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:21 pm Post subject: Ethanol Question

Herbert,

     Thanks, I guess that's good  news. I assume you've been using the 10% ethanol?  

     How about any 2 strokers with a  similar report?

  

 Don Smythe

 [quote]   ---

rliebmann(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:02 pm Post subject: Ethanol Question

I live by Herb and I have been using 10% ethanol  for years too with no effect on my tanks or performance. I fly a greyhead  582.

  

 Ron  N55KF

 [quote]   ---

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