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jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl
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 Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:36 am Post subject: Li-Ion hazards |
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For those who are really interested a comprehensive treatment of the
dangers of Li-Ion:
http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Research/RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.pdf
LiFePO4 is a lot less volatile and violent than most of the Li-Ion group.
But it shares unfortunate properties:
- thermal runaway can never be excluded: undetectable internal damage
may exist and trigger at the end of a charging cycle
- the electrolyte is flammable hydrocarbons
I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with
Li-Ion batteries.
Jan de Jong
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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:59 am Post subject: Li-Ion hazards |
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Thanks for posting this. There is no substitute for good science and the knowledge gained from it.
do not archive
| Quote: | Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine |
On 02/09/2013 11:34 AM, Jan de Jong wrote:
[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl> (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)
For those who are really interested a comprehensive treatment of the dangers of Li-Ion:
http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Research/RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.pdf
LiFePO4 is a lot less volatile and violent than most of the Li-Ion group.
But it shares unfortunate properties:
- thermal runaway can never be excluded: undetectable internal damage may exist and trigger at the end of a charging cycle
- the electrolyte is flammable hydrocarbons
I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with Li-Ion batteries.
Jan de Jong
[b]
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mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:08 am Post subject: Li-Ion hazards |
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I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with
Li-Ion batteries.
Jan de Jong
Perhaps a mechanism to jettison the battery when it reaches
ignition temperature would work. A better solution IMHO is
to not even consider using the Li-Ion battery, at this stage
of development. The cons far exceed the pros.
Roger
_____
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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:21 am Post subject: Li-Ion hazards |
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I wouldn't be surprised if the weight/cost of catastrophe management may make the Li based battery systems less attractive from an energy density standpoint.
do not archive
| Quote: | Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine |
On 02/09/2013 01:08 PM, Roger & Jean Curtis wrote:
[quote] [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Roger & Jean Curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> (mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net) I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with Li-Ion batteries. Jan de Jong Perhaps a mechanism to jettison the battery when it reaches ignition temperature would work. A better solution IMHO is to not even consider using the Li-Ion battery, at this stage of development. The cons far exceed the pros. Roger _____
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:44 am Post subject: Li-Ion hazards |
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Cool, flaming meteorites falling everywhere for people on the ground to see!
Tim
On Feb 9, 2013, at 1:08 PM, "Roger & Jean Curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with
Li-Ion batteries.
Jan de Jong
Perhaps a mechanism to jettison the battery when it reaches
ignition temperature would work. A better solution IMHO is
to not even consider using the Li-Ion battery, at this stage
of development. The cons far exceed the pros.
Roger
_____
.
Do you have a slow PC? <http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen>
Try a free scan!
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:50 pm Post subject: Li-Ion hazards |
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Jan, Perhaps it should be treated as Scotty treated the warp core of the Enterprise and eject them when there's trouble. :-}
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)>
For those who are really interested a comprehensive treatment of the dangers of Li-Ion:
http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Research/RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.pdf
LiFePO4 is a lot less volatile and violent than most of the Li-Ion group.
But it shares unfortunate properties:
- thermal runaway can never be excluded: undetectable internal damage may exist and trigger at the end of a charging cycle
- the electrolyte is flammable hydrocarbons
I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with Li-Ion batteries.
Jan de Jong
====================================
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le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[quote][b]
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jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:57 pm Post subject: Li-Ion hazards |
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Maybe airplanes can be equipped with a black hole for garbage disposal (black hole traveling along in a parallel universe).
Jan de Jong
do not archive
On 2/9/2013 9:48 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
[quote]Jan, Perhaps it should be treated as Scotty treated the warp core of the Enterprise and eject them when there's trouble. :-}
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)> wrote:
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[b]
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fly4grins(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:51 am Post subject: Li-Ion hazards |
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A design concept I've seen more than once is to have NiCads mounted in an unpressurized area, down low, with nothing under them but skin...
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 7:57 AM, AeroElectric-List Digest Server <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)> wrote:
[quote] *
=========================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
=========================
Today's complete AeroElectric-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the AeroElectric-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter=2013-02-09&Archive=AeroElectric
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter=2013-02-09&Archive=AeroElectric
================================================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
================================================
----------------------------------------------------------
AeroElectric-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Sat 02/09/13: 10
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:36 AM - Li-Ion hazards (Jan de Jong)
2. 10:59 AM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (rayj)
3. 11:08 AM - Re: OT: SMT solder bridge (rayj)
4. 11:08 AM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (Roger & Jean Curtis)
5. 11:17 AM - Soldering knowledge source (rayj)
6. 11:21 AM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (rayj)
7. 11:44 AM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (Tim Olson)
8. 11:46 AM - SD-20 Alternator / SB1B-14 regulator failure modes - update (Ralph E. Capen)
9. 12:50 PM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (Richard Girard)
10. 01:57 PM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (Jan de Jong)
________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
Time: 09:36:47 AM PST US
From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)>
Subject: Li-Ion hazards
For those who are really interested a comprehensive treatment of the
dangers of Li-Ion:
http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Research/RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.pdf
LiFePO4 is a lot less volatile and violent than most of the Li-Ion group.
But it shares unfortunate properties:
- thermal runaway can never be excluded: undetectable internal damage
may exist and trigger at the end of a charging cycle
- the electrolyte is flammable hydrocarbons
I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with
Li-Ion batteries.
Jan de Jong
________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
Time: 10:59:40 AM PST US
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)>
Subject: Re: Li-Ion hazards
Thanks for posting this. Thereis no substitute forgood science and the
knowledge gained from it.
do not archive
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 02/09/2013 11:34 AM, Jan de Jong wrote:
> <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)>
>
> For those who are really interested a comprehensive treatment of the
> dangers of Li-Ion:
> http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Research/RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.pdf
>
>
> LiFePO4 is a lot less volatile and violent than most of the Li-Ion group.
> But it shares unfortunate properties:
> - thermal runaway can never be excluded: undetectable internal damage
> may exist and trigger at the end of a charging cycle
> - the electrolyte is flammable hydrocarbons
>
> I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with
> Li-Ion batteries.
>
> Jan de Jong
>
>
________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
Time: 11:08:09 AM PST US
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)>
Subject: Re: OT: SMT solder bridge
Greetings,
Well...It's confession time. After 2 hours of tentative poking, heating,
fluxing, wiping and inspecting it turned out that the "solder bridge"
was actually a pad that 2 leads on the chip were supposed to share.
That little detail aside, I learned a great deal about SMT soldering and
rework.
Thanks to everyone who offered guidance.
do not archive
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 02/04/2013 03:44 PM, rayj wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> I was inspecting anew electronic device that wasn't working and found
> a solder bridge between 2 of the pins on an SMT chip.
>
> I'm looking for an easy way to remove it. My plan is to use a hot
> needle to touch it and maybe I can sweep or blow it away. I'm open to
> suggestions, keeping in mind I have no equipment for working on SMT
> components.
>
> do not archive
>
> Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
> --
> Raymond Julian
> Kettle River, MN.
>
> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
Time: 11:08:49 AM PST US
From: "Roger & Jean Curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net (mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net)>
Subject: RE: Li-Ion hazards
I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with
Li-Ion batteries.
Jan de Jong
Perhaps a mechanism to jettison the battery when it reaches
ignition temperature would work. A better solution IMHO is
to not even consider using the Li-Ion battery, at this stage
of development. The cons far exceed the pros.
Roger
_____
.
Do you have a slow PC? <http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen>
Try a free scan!
________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
Time: 11:17:20 AM PST US
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)>
Subject: Soldering knowledge source
As part of my SMT rework adventure, I was sent a site that has a great
deal of infoon soldering.
Thanks to Robert Korff for sending it to me, it belongs in the archive.
_http://www.solder.net/technical-info/soldering-tip-videos_
--
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________
Time: 11:21:02 AM PST US
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)>
Subject: Re: Li-Ion hazards
I wouldn't be surprised if the weight/cost of catastrophe management may
make the Li based battery systems less attractive from an energy density
standpoint.
do not archive
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 02/09/2013 01:08 PM, Roger & Jean Curtis wrote:
>
>
> I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with
> Li-Ion batteries.
>
> Jan de Jong
>
>
> Perhaps a mechanism to jettison the battery when it reaches
> ignition temperature would work. A better solution IMHO is
> to not even consider using the Li-Ion battery, at this stage
> of development. The cons far exceed the pros.
>
> Roger
>
>
> _____
>
> .
>
> Do you have a slow PC? <http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen>
> Try a free scan!
>
>
________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________
Time: 11:44:27 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Li-Ion hazards
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Cool, flaming meteorites falling everywhere for people on the ground to see!
Tim
On Feb 9, 2013, at 1:08 PM, "Roger & Jean Curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net (mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net)>
wrote:
>
>
> I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with
> Li-Ion batteries.
>
> Jan de Jong
>
>
> Perhaps a mechanism to jettison the battery when it reaches
> ignition temperature would work. A better solution IMHO is
> to not even consider using the Li-Ion battery, at this stage
> of development. The cons far exceed the pros.
>
> Roger
>
>
> _____
>
> .
>
> Do you have a slow PC? <http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen>
> Try a free scan!
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________
Time: 11:46:33 AM PST US
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net (recapen(at)earthlink.net)>
Subject: SD-20 Alternator / SB1B-14 regulator failure modes
- update
In my case, it was the drive gear that goes in to the accessory case.
There's a rubber thingy inside that was in a bunch of pieces. The safety catch
did it's job so the parts didn't float in to the engine. It all came out together
- but it was very obvious that the gear wasn't driving.
Anyone know if that is replaceable? Looks like it could be - just maybe not by
me.....I'll ask the folks (at) B & C.
Ralph Capen
________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________
Time: 12:50:02 PM PST US
Subject: Re: Li-Ion hazards
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)>
Jan, Perhaps it should be treated as Scotty treated the warp core of the
Enterprise and eject them when there's trouble. :-}
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)> wrote:
> jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)>
>
> For those who are really interested a comprehensive treatment of the
> dangers of Li-Ion:
> [url=http://www.nfpa.org/assets/**files/PDF/Research/**]http://www.nfpa.org/assets/**files/PDF/Research/**[/url]
> RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.**pdf<http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Research/RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.pdf>
>
> LiFePO4 is a lot less volatile and violent than most of the Li-Ion group.
> But it shares unfortunate properties:
> - thermal runaway can never be excluded: undetectable internal damage may
> exist and trigger at the end of a charging cycle
> - the electrolyte is flammable hydrocarbons
>
> I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with Li-Ion
> batteries.
>
> Jan de Jong
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________
Time: 01:57:36 PM PST US
From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)>
Subject: Re: Li-Ion hazards
Maybe airplanes can be equipped with a black hole for garbage disposal
(black hole traveling along in a parallel universe).
Jan de Jong
do not archive
On 2/9/2013 9:48 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
> Jan, Perhaps it should be treated as Scotty treated the warp core of
> the Enterprise and eject them when there's trouble. :-}
>
> Rick Girard
> do not archive
>
> On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)
> <mailto:jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)>> wrote:
>
> <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl) <mailto:jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)>>
>
> For those who are really interested a comprehensive treatment of
> the dangers of Li-Ion:
> http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Research/RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.pdf
>
> LiFePO4 is a lot less volatile and violent than most of the Li-Ion
> group.
> But it shares unfortunate properties:
> - thermal runaway can never be excluded: undetectable internal
> damage may exist and trigger at the end of a charging cycle
> - the electrolyte is flammable hydrocarbons
>
> I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design
> with Li-Ion batteries.
>
> Jan de Jong
>
>
> ===================================
> -List"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> ===================================
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
>
>
> --
> Zulu Delta
> Mk IIIC
> Thanks, Homer GBYM
>
> It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be
> unhappy.
> - Groucho Marx
>
> *
>
>
> *
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-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
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http://forums.matronics.com
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le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
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Eric M. Jones
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:52 am Post subject: Re: Li-Ion hazards |
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|
Do not archive
Don't panic yet. Whatever electric vehicles use, and whatever safety measures are employed, you can use too.
In any case, ejecting a flaming battery could land you in jail. So use the Airframe and Powerplant Mechanics Rule (told to me by a Pan-American mechanic): Never write your name or initials on any tool that might get left inside an aircraft. This would probably apply to batteries too.
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_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
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(508) 764-2072
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mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:05 am Post subject: Li-Ion hazards |
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Do not archive
Don't panic yet. Whatever electric vehicles use, and whatever safety
measures are employed, you can use too.
As with your electric vehicle, when you are driving along and
your battery starts to flame, just pull your airplane over and
get out!!
Roger
_____
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:19 am Post subject: Li-Ion hazards |
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Good Morning All,
How about this?
Do any of you recall how the batteries are mounted on a Douglas DC-3?
They are on a platform which can be easily dropped out of the bottom of the fuselage. They can then be easily disconnected and removed while the technician is standing comfortably on the ground beneath the cover provided by the airplane. A great idea.
Why not do the same thing with the problem child batteries, but eliminate the stop the DC-3 has so the battery would simply drop away? The contacts could be simple knife blade connectors which would open automatically as the battery fell.
For pressurized flying machines, the battery compartment could be exterior to the pressure vessel. looks like it should work OK to me!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 2/10/2013 10:07:56 A.M. Central Standard Time, mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net writes:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Roger & Jean Curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Do not archive
Don't panic yet. Whatever electric vehicles use, and whatever safety
measures are employed, you can use too.
As with your electric vehicle, when you are driving along and
your battery starts to flame, just pull your airplane over and
get out!!
Roger
|
[quote][b]
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skywagon
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 184
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:27 am Post subject: Li-Ion hazards |
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Hi Old Bob,
...always enjoy your comments...
This Lithium battery will be Boeing scourge for a while. Like having the Doc take you off the team and put you to bed for a small splinter in your pinky.
Your Li battery disposal idea is a good one except for the occasional cow and coyote that gets bopped on the head by the falling melting flamer...[img]cid:0C5293D3DE5D4C84A59101FD06806E00(at)DavidsBluePC[/img]
David
[quote] ---
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deej(at)deej.net
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:02 am Post subject: Li-Ion hazards |
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Excellent Suggestion Dj.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 2/10/2013 11:29:44 A.M. Central Standard Time, deej(at)deej.net writes:
| Quote: | On 2/10/2013 11:18 AM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com) wrote:
| Quote: | Why not do the same thing with the problem child batteries, but eliminate the stop the DC-3 has so the battery would simply drop away?
|
Just make sure the batteries are located on CG... 
-Dj
|
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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:36 pm Post subject: Li-Ion hazards |
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How about just putting the platform on a cable. The platform drops far enough not to be a hazard to the aircraft, then is released at a chosen time and place before landing. Could even reel it back up close to the fuselage after the fire is out and then land.
do not archive
| Quote: | Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine |
On 02/10/2013 10:18 AM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com) wrote:
[quote] Good Morning All,
How about this?
Do any of you recall how the batteries are mounted on a Douglas DC-3?
They are on a platform which can be easily dropped out of the bottom of the fuselage. They can then be easily disconnected and removed while the technician is standing comfortably on the ground beneath the cover provided by the airplane. A great idea.
Why not do the same thing with the problem child batteries, but eliminate the stop the DC-3 has so the battery would simply drop away? The contacts could be simple knife blade connectors which would open automatically as the battery fell.
For pressurized flying machines, the battery compartment could be exterior to the pressure vessel. looks like it should work OK to me!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 2/10/2013 10:07:56 A.M. Central Standard Time, mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net (mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net) writes:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Roger & Jean Curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> (mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net)
Do not archive
Don't panic yet. Whatever electric vehicles use, and whatever safety
measures are employed, you can use too.
As with your electric vehicle, when you are driving along and
your battery starts to flame, just pull your airplane over and
get out!!
Roger
|
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:20 pm Post subject: Li-Ion hazards |
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See! The group thought process works.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 2/10/2013 2:37:21 P.M. Central Standard Time, raymondj(at)frontiernet.net writes:
| Quote: | How about just putting the platform on a cable. The platform drops far enough not to be a hazard to the aircraft, then is released at a chosen time and place before landing. Could even reel it back up close to the fuselage after the fire is out and then land.
do not archive
| Quote: | Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine |
On 02/10/2013 10:18 AM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com) wrote:
| Quote: | Good Morning All,
How about this?
Do any of you recall how the batteries are mounted on a Douglas DC-3?
They are on a platform which can be easily dropped out of the bottom of the fuselage. They can then be easily disconnected and removed while the technician is standing comfortably on the ground beneath the cover provided by the airplane. A great idea.
Why not do the same thing with the problem child batteries, but eliminate the stop the DC-3 has so the battery would simply drop away? The contacts could be simple knife blade connectors which would open automatically as the battery fell.
For pressurized flying machines, the battery compartment could be exterior to the pressure vessel. looks like it should work OK to me!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
|
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loboflyer(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:33 pm Post subject: Li-Ion hazards |
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|
Or, perhaps a chemical that is micro-encapsulated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro-encapsulation) where the encapsulation melts at thermal run-away temperature, but not during normal operation, such that the chemical reaction leading to fire is halted. I guess the trick would be to come up with something that doesn't degrade the useful capacity and internal resistance of the battery but can quickly activate such that the items exterior to the battery are saved.
-Jeff-
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 2:19 PM, <BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote] See! The group thought process works.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 2/10/2013 2:37:21 P.M. Central Standard Time, raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net) writes:
| Quote: | How about just putting the platform on a cable. The platform drops far enough not to be a hazard to the aircraft, then is released at a chosen time and place before landing. Could even reel it back up close to the fuselage after the fire is out and then land.
do not archive
| Quote: | Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine |
On 02/10/2013 10:18 AM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com) wrote:
| Quote: | Good Morning All,
How about this?
Do any of you recall how the batteries are mounted on a Douglas DC-3?
They are on a platform which can be easily dropped out of the bottom of the fuselage. They can then be easily disconnected and removed while the technician is standing comfortably on the ground beneath the cover provided by the airplane. A great idea.
Why not do the same thing with the problem child batteries, but eliminate the stop the DC-3 has so the battery would simply drop away? The contacts could be simple knife blade connectors which would open automatically as the battery fell.
For pressurized flying machines, the battery compartment could be exterior to the pressure vessel. looks like it should work OK to me!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
|
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Bubblehead
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 48
Location: N. Richland Hills, TX
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: Li-Ion hazards |
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Here is an article on the cause of the battery fire on the JAL 787.
http://tinyurl.com/am27on3
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mjpereira68(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:23 pm Post subject: Li-Ion hazards |
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The safe full charge voltage of a lithium ion battery is dependent on temperature. Lower ambient temperature equal lower safe charge voltage.
If unpressurized equals unheated, a fully charged battery on the ground would be
an overcharged battery at 30,000 feet. Meaning shorter life span (and maybe the last proverbial straw).
Don't know if lifepo4 shares this quirk.
Actually, nevermind, i'm sure boeing keeps the full charge voltage safely below the worst case possibility.
Then again these batteries don't really like to be cold.
*shrugs* complicated compared to lead acid or nicad.
c'ya,
Michael
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 9:50 AM, GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com (fly4grins(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]A design concept I've seen more than once is to have NiCads mounted in an unpressurized area, down low, with nothing under them but skin...
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 7:57 AM, AeroElectric-List Digest Server <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | *
=========================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
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Today's complete AeroElectric-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
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================================================
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AeroElectric-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Sat 02/09/13: 10
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:36 AM - Li-Ion hazards (Jan de Jong)
2. 10:59 AM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (rayj)
3. 11:08 AM - Re: OT: SMT solder bridge (rayj)
4. 11:08 AM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (Roger & Jean Curtis)
5. 11:17 AM - Soldering knowledge source (rayj)
6. 11:21 AM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (rayj)
7. 11:44 AM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (Tim Olson)
8. 11:46 AM - SD-20 Alternator / SB1B-14 regulator failure modes - update (Ralph E. Capen)
9. 12:50 PM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (Richard Girard)
10. 01:57 PM - Re: Li-Ion hazards (Jan de Jong)
________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
Time: 09:36:47 AM PST US
From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)>
Subject: Li-Ion hazards
For those who are really interested a comprehensive treatment of the
dangers of Li-Ion:
http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Research/RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.pdf
LiFePO4 is a lot less volatile and violent than most of the Li-Ion group.
But it shares unfortunate properties:
- thermal runaway can never be excluded: undetectable internal damage
may exist and trigger at the end of a charging cycle
- the electrolyte is flammable hydrocarbons
I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with
Li-Ion batteries.
Jan de Jong
________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
Time: 10:59:40 AM PST US
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)>
Subject: Re: Li-Ion hazards
Thanks for posting this. Thereis no substitute forgood science and the
knowledge gained from it.
do not archive
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 02/09/2013 11:34 AM, Jan de Jong wrote:
> <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)>
>
> For those who are really interested a comprehensive treatment of the
> dangers of Li-Ion:
> http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Research/RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.pdf
>
>
> LiFePO4 is a lot less volatile and violent than most of the Li-Ion group.
> But it shares unfortunate properties:
> - thermal runaway can never be excluded: undetectable internal damage
> may exist and trigger at the end of a charging cycle
> - the electrolyte is flammable hydrocarbons
>
> I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with
> Li-Ion batteries.
>
> Jan de Jong
>
>
________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
Time: 11:08:09 AM PST US
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)>
Subject: Re: OT: SMT solder bridge
Greetings,
Well...It's confession time. After 2 hours of tentative poking, heating,
fluxing, wiping and inspecting it turned out that the "solder bridge"
was actually a pad that 2 leads on the chip were supposed to share.
That little detail aside, I learned a great deal about SMT soldering and
rework.
Thanks to everyone who offered guidance.
do not archive
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 02/04/2013 03:44 PM, rayj wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> I was inspecting anew electronic device that wasn't working and found
> a solder bridge between 2 of the pins on an SMT chip.
>
> I'm looking for an easy way to remove it. My plan is to use a hot
> needle to touch it and maybe I can sweep or blow it away. I'm open to
> suggestions, keeping in mind I have no equipment for working on SMT
> components.
>
> do not archive
>
> Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
> --
> Raymond Julian
> Kettle River, MN.
>
> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
Time: 11:08:49 AM PST US
From: "Roger & Jean Curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net (mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net)>
Subject: RE: Li-Ion hazards
I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with
Li-Ion batteries.
Jan de Jong
Perhaps a mechanism to jettison the battery when it reaches
ignition temperature would work. A better solution IMHO is
to not even consider using the Li-Ion battery, at this stage
of development. The cons far exceed the pros.
Roger
_____
.
Do you have a slow PC? <http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen>
Try a free scan!
________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
Time: 11:17:20 AM PST US
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)>
Subject: Soldering knowledge source
As part of my SMT rework adventure, I was sent a site that has a great
deal of infoon soldering.
Thanks to Robert Korff for sending it to me, it belongs in the archive.
_http://www.solder.net/technical-info/soldering-tip-videos_
--
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________
Time: 11:21:02 AM PST US
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)>
Subject: Re: Li-Ion hazards
I wouldn't be surprised if the weight/cost of catastrophe management may
make the Li based battery systems less attractive from an energy density
standpoint.
do not archive
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 02/09/2013 01:08 PM, Roger & Jean Curtis wrote:
>
>
> I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with
> Li-Ion batteries.
>
> Jan de Jong
>
>
> Perhaps a mechanism to jettison the battery when it reaches
> ignition temperature would work. A better solution IMHO is
> to not even consider using the Li-Ion battery, at this stage
> of development. The cons far exceed the pros.
>
> Roger
>
>
> _____
>
> .
>
> Do you have a slow PC? <http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen>
> Try a free scan!
>
>
________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________
Time: 11:44:27 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Li-Ion hazards
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Cool, flaming meteorites falling everywhere for people on the ground to see!
Tim
On Feb 9, 2013, at 1:08 PM, "Roger & Jean Curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net (mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net)>
wrote:
>
>
> I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with
> Li-Ion batteries.
>
> Jan de Jong
>
>
> Perhaps a mechanism to jettison the battery when it reaches
> ignition temperature would work. A better solution IMHO is
> to not even consider using the Li-Ion battery, at this stage
> of development. The cons far exceed the pros.
>
> Roger
>
>
> _____
>
> .
>
> Do you have a slow PC? <http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen>
> Try a free scan!
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________
Time: 11:46:33 AM PST US
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net (recapen(at)earthlink.net)>
Subject: SD-20 Alternator / SB1B-14 regulator failure modes
- update
In my case, it was the drive gear that goes in to the accessory case.
There's a rubber thingy inside that was in a bunch of pieces. The safety catch
did it's job so the parts didn't float in to the engine. It all came out together
- but it was very obvious that the gear wasn't driving.
Anyone know if that is replaceable? Looks like it could be - just maybe not by
me.....I'll ask the folks (at) B & C.
Ralph Capen
________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________
Time: 12:50:02 PM PST US
Subject: Re: Li-Ion hazards
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)>
Jan, Perhaps it should be treated as Scotty treated the warp core of the
Enterprise and eject them when there's trouble. :-}
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)> wrote:
> jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)>
>
> For those who are really interested a comprehensive treatment of the
> dangers of Li-Ion:
> [url=http://www.nfpa.org/assets/**files/PDF/Research/**]http://www.nfpa.org/assets/**files/PDF/Research/**[/url]
> RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.**pdf<http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Research/RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.pdf>
>
> LiFePO4 is a lot less volatile and violent than most of the Li-Ion group.
> But it shares unfortunate properties:
> - thermal runaway can never be excluded: undetectable internal damage may
> exist and trigger at the end of a charging cycle
> - the electrolyte is flammable hydrocarbons
>
> I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design with Li-Ion
> batteries.
>
> Jan de Jong
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________
Time: 01:57:36 PM PST US
From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)>
Subject: Re: Li-Ion hazards
Maybe airplanes can be equipped with a black hole for garbage disposal
(black hole traveling along in a parallel universe).
Jan de Jong
do not archive
On 2/9/2013 9:48 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
> Jan, Perhaps it should be treated as Scotty treated the warp core of
> the Enterprise and eject them when there's trouble. :-}
>
> Rick Girard
> do not archive
>
> On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)
> <mailto:jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)>> wrote:
>
> <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl) <mailto:jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)>>
>
> For those who are really interested a comprehensive treatment of
> the dangers of Li-Ion:
> http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Research/RFLithiumIonBatteriesHazard.pdf
>
> LiFePO4 is a lot less volatile and violent than most of the Li-Ion
> group.
> But it shares unfortunate properties:
> - thermal runaway can never be excluded: undetectable internal
> damage may exist and trigger at the end of a charging cycle
> - the electrolyte is flammable hydrocarbons
>
> I looks like "containment" will be part of any aviation design
> with Li-Ion batteries.
>
> Jan de Jong
>
>
> ===================================
> -List"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> ===================================
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
>
>
> --
> Zulu Delta
> Mk IIIC
> Thanks, Homer GBYM
>
> It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be
> unhappy.
> - Groucho Marx
>
> *
>
>
> *
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:08 pm Post subject: Li-Ion hazards |
|
|
Airbus is bailing out of lithium batteries for their
A350 program.
http://tinyurl.com/a7hd4zm
A mini-sub being designed for the Navy suffered
catastrophic damage due to lithium battery fire
that fortunately broke out on land. It took 5+
hours to put the fire out.
http://tinyurl.com/bjn6bun
Boeing still seems to be optimistic. I've
not heard anything new on Cessna . . . I think
they're still stroking the Lithium Ion
installation.
Bob . . .
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