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flying at what altitude

 
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graeme bird



Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:55 pm    Post subject: flying at what altitude Reply with quote

I notice it seems to be popular to fly at highish altitudes. I must admit even with an IMC and when I had an IMC legal plane I have always been reluctant to spend the time climbing, feels the winds are stronger higher, the scenery is less interesting and the engine performance is worse.
On the other hand the air is thinner and maybe the engine performance is not so bad, though its not turbo charged. I may have it wrong, any views?


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Graeme Bird
kit4 (Wagstaff) TBD
Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
Kit2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:14 pm    Post subject: flying at what altitude Reply with quote

Graeme, It is often much more comfortable flying above the
thermal layer and if you are going a few hundred miles
then climbing up to 5 or 6 thousand feet may be well
worthwhile. Winds at that level are often much the same as
at 2000ft., but with a GPS giving you ground speed you can
always check you re not getting increased headwinds. If
you have a 914 then you actually save a fair amount of
fuel, although this is not the case with non turbocharged
engines.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

On Thu, 25 Apr 2013 13:55:09 -0700
"graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk> wrote:
Quote:

<graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk>

I notice it seems to be popular to fly at highish
altitudes. I must admit even with an IMC and when I had
an IMC legal plane I have always been reluctant to spend
the time climbing, feels the winds are stronger higher,
the scenery is less interesting and the engine
performance is worse.
On the other hand the air is thinner and maybe the
engine performance is not so bad, though its not turbo
charged. I may have it wrong, any views?

--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 55 hours 1 year
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk




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paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:42 pm    Post subject: flying at what altitude Reply with quote

Graeme, 

I have a 914 so I guess its a bit different for me. If I am going any distance I always climb.  Since I have put oxygen in the airplane I often cruise in the 10~12,000 range, even higher if the winds are favorable. For sure it scenery isn't as interesting, but I nearly always get a smooth ride which keeps "her indoors happy"

With the turbo I get to enjoy the advantage of DA so if I am not pushing into the wind it can be  a pretty quick ride.


Cheers, Paul

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max8992



Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 142

PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:29 pm    Post subject: flying at what altitude Reply with quote

Flying is a compromise! So you have to balance quality of air and engine
performance, wind stengh and direction and TAS, scenery and comfort, time to
climb and time to descent... Each flight is different and that is why we fly
!

Max Cointe
mcointe(at)free.fr
F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 450 hours

F-PLDJ Dyn’Aéro MCR 4S
Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1550 heures
-----Message d'origine-----
De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de graeme bird
Envoyé : jeudi 25 avril 2013 22:55
À : europa-list(at)matronics.com
Objet : flying at what altitude



I notice it seems to be popular to fly at highish altitudes. I must admit
even with an IMC and when I had an IMC legal plane I have always been
reluctant to spend the time climbing, feels the winds are stronger higher,
the scenery is less interesting and the engine performance is worse.
On the other hand the air is thinner and maybe the engine performance is not
so bad, though its not turbo charged. I may have it wrong, any views?

--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 55 hours 1 year
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk


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h&jeuropa



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 650

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:06 am    Post subject: Re: flying at what altitude Reply with quote

Graeme,

We agree with all the above and add that altitude gives you more landing options in case of a problem - more potential landing sites and more time to figure out your course of action.

Jim & Heather
N241BW
XS Mono 914


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budyerly(at)msn.com
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:29 am    Post subject: flying at what altitude Reply with quote

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> My two sense (since I really don't want to work on what I should be) if you have a 914 you climb better so we normally use that to our advantage. A short wing at 1370 lbs from TO takes 15-20 minutes to level off at 12,000. Fuel used 2.5 gallons start, taxi, TO to L/O.
A similarly equipped 912S will take 25-30 minutes and 3.5 gallons. Both climbing at 90 KIAS ish.
Once level, figure your true airspeed (nominally about 10 Kts between the two engines) and the difference in climb distance to cruise and I have found the optimum altitude for best range to be nominally 8500-9500 for a 2.5 hour trip. No oxygen required either engine.

But then again, I have a 2.5 hour bladder any more, plus I get bored. The plane just flies too well. In the 914 I go 270-300 miles, and in a similar 912S I go 250-270 and on landing, put 10 gallons in the tank and drain my bladder.

In Florida, the tops of the bumpers on a nice day are about 8500, and it is nice to cruise climb a bit higher to 10.5. Pull the throttle back to 68% and 4.6 GPH once level then plan a long slow descent, your fuel usage is quite low and you can do the 2.5 hour trip at or near 35MPG truing about 127 ish. If I pick up the speed my milage drops to 25-30MPG (even in a trigear) truing a bit faster and climbing higher is done for comfort only, not economy. Each plane and engine prop combination has to be tested for optimum cruise performance. Some of our birds are draggy and built for fun, and others are stripped down speed merchants with extended range tanks and pilots with tight urinary tract control.

The new 912iS appears to be the ticket. I'll wait a bit for them to figure out maintenance, injector cleaning, etc. Then the extra fuel savings of the iS may be able to put more legs on the trip and frankly better efficiency for the normally aspirated engine.

I refuse to get into a contest on which engine is better. Your flying desires, density altitude operation, personal stomach for maintenance costs, and type of aircraft all affect a subjective decision. I hate my 914 (except when it behaves), and I hate the 912S (when shaking on start and stop). I love and hate both these engines and the new engines (UL, MW, Jabiru) so I do not descriminate, I hate them all, except when I love them.

Bud

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:09 pm    Post subject: flying at what altitude Reply with quote

Yep, I hate my 914 too except when it behaves Sad 

It's a bit my kids, when there good they are really good, and when they are bad they are REALLY bad Smile


do not archive


 

_____________________________________
 
[quote]  
I refuse to get into a contest on which engine is better.  Your flying desires, density altitude operation, personal stomach for maintenance costs, and type of aircraft all affect a subjective decision.  I hate my 914 (except when it behaves), and I hate the 912S (when shaking on start and stop).  I love and hate both these engines and the new engines (UL, MW, Jabiru) so I do not descriminate, I hate them all, except when I love them. 
 
Bud 
[b]


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jeff(at)rmmm.net
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:21 pm    Post subject: flying at what altitude Reply with quote

I have a dog and a middle daughter like that... But my new 912ULS is so far perfect all the time!!!!! Like a sewing machine!

Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush / FOR SALE



Do not archive!

On Apr 26, 2013, at 4:08 PM, Paul McAllister wrote:
[quote]Yep, I hate my 914 too except when it behaves Sad

It's a bit my kids, when there good they are really good, and when they are bad they are REALLY bad Smile


do not archive




_____________________________________

Quote:

I refuse to get into a contest on which engine is better. Your flying desires, density altitude operation, personal stomach for maintenance costs, and type of aircraft all affect a subjective decision. I hate my 914 (except when it behaves), and I hate the 912S (when shaking on start and stop). I love and hate both these engines and the new engines (UL, MW, Jabiru) so I do not descriminate, I hate them all, except when I love them.

Bud


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:53 pm    Post subject: flying at what altitude Reply with quote

Bud, All good stuff, except what's with the 2.5 hr
bladder? Those of us who have come to power flying via
gliding dream of those rare days(rare in the UK that is)
when you can glide in style for 7 or 8 hrs. Glider Pilot's
bladders are no different. They just use a pee tube or a
bottle - in fact I thought that was what the space under
the L thigh rest was designed for!
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 14:28:51 -0400
"Bud Yerly" <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:
[quote] My two sense (since I really don't want to work on what
I should be) if you have a 914 you climb better so we
normally use that to our advantage. A short wing at 1370
lbs from TO takes 15-20 minutes to level off at 12,000.
Fuel used 2.5 gallons start, taxi, TO to L/O.
A similarly equipped 912S will take 25-30 minutes and
3.5 gallons. Both climbing at 90 KIAS ish.
Once level, figure your true airspeed (nominally about
10 Kts between the two engines) and the difference in
climb distance to cruise and I have found the optimum
altitude for best range to be nominally 8500-9500 for a
2.5 hour trip. No oxygen required either engine.

But then again, I have a 2.5 hour bladder any more, plus
I get bored. The plane just flies too well. In the 914
I go 270-300 miles, and in a similar 912S I go 250-270
and on landing, put 10 gallons in the tank and drain my
bladder.

In Florida, the tops of the bumpers on a nice day are
about 8500, and it is nice to cruise climb a bit higher
to 10.5. Pull the throttle back to 68% and 4.6 GPH once
level then plan a long slow descent, your fuel usage is
quite low and you can do the 2.5 hour trip at or near
35MPG truing about 127 ish. If I pick up the speed my
milage drops to 25-30MPG (even in a trigear) truing a bit
faster and climbing higher is done for comfort only, not
economy. Each plane and engine prop combination has to
be tested for optimum cruise performance. Some of our
birds are draggy and built for fun, and others are
stripped down speed merchants with extended range tanks
and pilots with tight urinary tract control.

The new 912iS appears to be the ticket. I'll wait a bit
for them to figure out maintenance, injector cleaning,
etc. Then the extra fuel savings of the iS may be able
to put more legs on the trip and frankly better
efficiency for the normally aspirated engine.

I refuse to get into a contest on which engine is
better. Your flying desires, density altitude operation,
personal stomach for maintenance costs, and type of
aircraft all affect a subjective decision. I hate my 914
(except when it behaves), and I hate the 912S (when
shaking on start and stop). I love and hate both these
engines and the new engines (UL, MW, Jabiru) so I do not
descriminate, I hate them all, except when I love them.

Bud

---


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:30 pm    Post subject: flying at what altitude Reply with quote

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> David
I guess we are not all blessed with appendages that reach out the window or far enough out of our pants to pee lying down...
I do not love flying enough not to enjoy a good FBO and the joy of meeting and talking to new people at different airports. The prostate issues are just and excuse. Cruising for hours in a powered plane cannot be as much fun as gliding and conquering mother nature for a few hours, hence I understand you perfectly.

Bud
[quote] ---


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