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Europa-List Digest: 13 Msgs - 06/01/13

 
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tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.c
Guest
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:08 am    Post subject: Europa-List Digest: 13 Msgs - 06/01/13 Reply with quote
Gidday,
Thanks to Richard Wheelwright, Richard Collings, and Ron Parigoris for their replies regarding TE Lift Pin Sockets. I had to move all 4 of my lift pin socket plates from the sides of the fuselage, due to them being in the wrong position, and no, my dimensions are correct. A bunch of other builders, well at least one other, have had to move plates. So, the rear plates were extracted and moved from the outside due to access with the cockpit module in the way. Suffice to say I have a buildup over the plates that whilst over the top of the plates it is flat, as you migrate outward, I have multiple plies of cloth including the mandatory 4 plies of BID for reinforcement. So, whilst I like curves of the feminine sense, I hate them otherwise. I've got curves going off in all directions and I'm just hopeless at the trial and error of shaping ply. I have an admission, I love car bog. Polyester resin mixed with talc. Easy to sand, easy to shape. I am wondering if rather than ply I could apply car bog over the plate area, shape it nicely, and then layup over the top of it. It aint going to crack away or migrate anywhere as it is captive by the BID, and should remain "in"compressible, certainly no more than ply. Or, if the car bog is the issue, why not apply it, shape it, splash it, fill it with redux and flox, and redux it back on? I can build most of the kit but when it comes to multiple fit and sand, fit and sand, etc, I know most will think it an easy thing, but I struggle and simply don't enjoy it. So, any other options??
Regards
Tony Renshaw
Whingy Aussie
On 02/06/2013, at 5:01 PM, Europa-List Digest Server <europa-list(at)matronics.com> wrote:

Quote:

________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________


Time: 01:55:53 AM PST US
From: Richard Wheelwright <rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Rear Trailing Edge Lift Pin Socket Mounting

Tony,=0A--- Depending on the thickness you need. I used waste from th
e tri-gear leg sockets ribs. I cut a 2 1/2 inch circle with a hole saw, the
n it was cut down through its edge at the angel needed to contour the side
of the fuselage. Worked a treat.=0A=0A============
=========0A=0ARichard Wheelwright=0A=======
==============0A =0A=0A__________________________
______=0A From: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com>=0ATo: europa-list(at)m
atronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, 1 June 2013, 9:17=0ASubject: R
ear Trailing Edge Lift Pin Socket Mounting=0A =0A=0A--> Europa-List messag
e posted by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com>=0A=0AI would like to r
equest advice regarding methods of shaping the ply inserts for the rear Tra
iling Edge Lift Pin Sockets if anyone has digressed from the manual, either
by material/medium or method. Thanks.=0ARegards=0ATony Renshaw=0ASydney Au
===================

________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________


Time: 04:27:53 AM PST US
From: "richard" <rcollings(at)talktalk.net>
Subject: Re: Rear Trailing Edge Lift Pin Socket Mounting

I did the same as Richard W , I drew a circle on a piece of the 12mm
plywood the same dia as the bracket tried it in place with the wings in
position then once I had the thickness correct blended out from the
bracket circle to the edge this made the outside dia about 3 1/2 inches
. Then glue and glass as per manual. Good luck Richard C

From: Richard Wheelwright
Sent: Saturday, June 1, 2013 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: Rear Trailing Edge Lift Pin Socket Mounting

Tony,
Depending on the thickness you need. I used waste from the tri-gear
leg sockets ribs. I cut a 2 1/2 inch circle with a hole saw, then it was
cut down through its edge at the angel needed to contour the side of the
fuselage. Worked a treat.

===================

Richard Wheelwright
===================

From: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, 1 June 2013, 9:17
Subject: Rear Trailing Edge Lift Pin Socket Mounting


<tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com>

I would like to request advice regarding methods of shaping the ply
inserts for the rear Trailing Edge Lift Pin Sockets if anyone has
digressed from the manual, either by material/medium or method. Thanks.
Regards
Tony Renshaw
Sydney st"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://fo
rums.matronbsp; nbsp; -Matt com/contribution"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution


________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________

________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________


Time: 05:41:36 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Rear Trailing Edge Lift Pin Socket Mounting
From: rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us


Hi Tony


"anyone has digressed from the manual, either by material/medium or
method."


Here's how I did it:


http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=31838


Ron Parigoris



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budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:14 am    Post subject: Europa-List Digest: 13 Msgs - 06/01/13 Reply with quote
<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Greetings Tony,

Moving the plates isn't all that bad but you are right in it takes time and patience. As for covering up your "curves" I prefer to see you fill with an epoxy filler. Personally, if a customer mucks up the wood shims, I fix it with Redux, set the socket and put peel ply around the edges of the taped up socket. Peel the socket off smooth and glass it up. Cover with your glass and peel ply well. Works fast and easy. Redux is as good as ply and with the extra glass on top it is bulletproof. To fill, you can use your expand cell with epoxy supplied in the kit. Make it good and thick. I know that it takes longer, but here is the reason:

Polyester resin and fillers will de-bond from epoxy. The rule is nothing on epoxy but epoxy or polyurethane paint. If polyester filler is used, it grips to rough surfaces and is best on metal , primer, or other polyester. Vinylester sticks to poly, and epoxy sticks to everything that is dry (no greasy poly please).

In experiments with my painter, polyester pops off epoxy gelcoat or weave (heat cured or not) in about a month unless sanded very course, but watch the edges, they are what de-bonds. All the filler MSDS sheets indicate do not put poly on epoxy. Vinylester is a different animal. It is a long molecule but not as long as epoxy. It will stick but will flake off with bending. I have Evercoat Rage Vinylester filler on one of my flaps as an experiment and have had no problem after 5 years. But the Evercoat folks tell me it will eventually peel.

Caution: Any filler or even glass tape with a raw edge will lift when painted with urethane. Always make sure you have a wet edge and peel plied in a stress area like a wing walk area or it will show a crack. Will it peel all the way, no but the inspection will have you grinding on a newly finished airplane.

As a general rule:
Fill with epoxy/expand cell, finish the smooth out with a sanding block to about 150 grit then prime. I fill pinholes by using Dupont 2K type filler primer but any will do. Any further minor imperfections in our experience are filled with a good quality glazing filler such as 3M, over the primer to fill those small imperfections. Keep it very thin. It sticks well, is fast and is easy to prime/sand/fill/prime to a perfect finish.

Stay away from resin and talc as it is heavy and will peel off epoxy.

I hate to do wheel pants and the transitions. I swear it is faster to fill the fuselage completely than wheel pants because of all the small curves. Once my glass work is done, I fill initially with expand cell and sand for a day. Once reasonably close, I prime, and break out the Rage. By the end of the day, I am ready to prime. I prime and spot fill/prime and shoot the polyurethane.

The cowl and doors are a baked ester resin, so Rage works on small dings pretty well.

Regards,
Bud

[quote] ---

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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:22 am    Post subject: Europa-List Digest: 13 Msgs - 06/01/13 Reply with quote
Redux and flox would be OK, if you use peel ply (recommended) with care you should get a nice shape
Graham


From: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, 2 June 2013, 11:08
Subject: Re: Europa-List Digest: 13 Msgs - 06/01/13


--> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com (tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com)>

Gidday,
Thanks to Richard Wheelwright, Richard Collings, and Ron Parigoris for their replies regarding TE Lift Pin Sockets. I had to move all 4 of my lift pin socket plates from the sides of the fuselage, due to them being in the wrong position, and no, my dimensions are correct. A bunch of other builders, well at least one other, have had to move plates. So, the rear plates were extracted and moved from the outside due to access with the cockpit module in the way. Suffice to say I have a buildup over the plates that whilst over the top of the plates it is flat, as you migrate outward, I have multiple plies of cloth including the mandatory 4 plies of BID for reinforcement. So, whilst I like curves of the feminine sense, I hate them otherwise. I've got curves going off in all directions and I'm just hopeless at the trial and error of shaping ply. I have an admission, I love car bog. Polyester resin mixed with talc. Easy to sand, easy to shape. I am wondering if rather than ply I coul!
d apply car bog over the plate area, shape it nicely, and then layup over the top of it. It aint going to crack away or migrate anywhere as it is captive by the BID, and should remain "in"compressible, certainly no more than ply. Or, if the car bog is the issue, why not apply it, shape it, splash it, fill it with redux and flox, and redux it back on? I can build most of the kit but when it comes to multiple fit and sand, fit and sand, etc, I know most will think it an easy thing, but I struggle and simply don't enjoy it. So, any other options??
Regards
Tony Renshaw
Whingy Aussie
On 02/06/2013, at 5:01 PM, Europa-List Digest Server <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)> wrote:

Quote:

________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________


Time: 01:55:53 AM PST US
From: Richard Wheelwright <rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk (rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk)>
Subject: Re: Rear Trailing Edge Lift Pin Socket Mounting

Tony,=0A--- Depending on the thickness you need. I used waste from th
e tri-gear leg sockets ribs. I cut a 2 1/2 inch circle with a hole saw, the
n it was cut down through its edge at the angel needed to contour the side
of the fuselage. Worked a treat.=0A=0A============
=========0A=0ARichard Wheelwright=0A=======
==============0A =0A=0A__________________________
______=0A From: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com (tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com)>=0ATo: europa-list(at)m
atronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, 1 June 2013, 9:17=0ASubject: R
ear Trailing Edge Lift Pin Socket Mounting=0A =0A=0A--> Europa-List messag
e posted by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com (tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com)>=0A=0AI would like to r
equest advice regarding methods of shaping the ply inserts for the rear Tra
iling Edge Lift Pin Sockets if anyone has digressed from the manual, either
by material/medium or method. Thanks.=0ARegards=0ATony Renshaw=0ASydney Au
===================

________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________


Time: 04:27:53 AM PST US
From: "richard" <rcollings(at)talktalk.net (rcollings(at)talktalk.net)>
Subject: Re: Rear Trailing Edge Lift Pin Socket Mounting

I did the same as Richard W , I drew a circle on a piece of the 12mm
plywood the same dia as the bracket tried it in place with the wings in
position then once I had the thickness correct blended out from the
bracket circle to the edge this made the outside dia about 3 1/2 inches
. Then glue and glass as per manual. Good luck Richard C

From: Richard Wheelwright
Sent: Saturday, June 1, 2013 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: Rear Trailing Edge Lift Pin Socket Mounting

Tony,
Depending on the thickness you need. I used waste from the tri-gear
leg sockets ribs. I cut a 2 1/2 inch circle with a hole saw, then it was
cut down through its edge at the angel needed to contour the side of the
fuselage. Worked a treat.

===================

Richard Wheelwright
===================

From: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com (tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com)>
Sent: Saturday, 1 June 2013, 9:17
Subject: Rear Trailing Edge Lift Pin Socket Mounting


<tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com (tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com)>

I would like to request advice regarding methods of shaping the ply
inserts for the rear Trailing Edge Lift Pin Sockets if anyone has
digressed from the manual, either by material/medium or method. Thanks.
Regards
Tony Renshaw
Sydney st"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://fo
rums.matronbsp; nbsp;   -Matt com/contribution"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution


________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________

________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________


Time: 05:41:36 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Rear Trailing Edge Lift Pin Socket Mounting
From: rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us (rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us)


Hi Tony


"anyone has digressed from the manual, either by material/medium or
method."


Here's how I did it:


http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=31838

&"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" ="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics &nbsptronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contri================




[quote][b]

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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Back to top
ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net
Guest
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:03 am    Post subject: Europa-List Digest: 13 Msgs - 06/01/13 Reply with quote
HI! All
When I was inflicted with this damned problem Europa offered to supply a piece of slightly larger metal to butt up to the piece that was too short to contain all the drilled holes to mount the rear lift pin sockets.
I insisted that I should replace the entire piece which was incorrectly positioned and they obliged.
To remove the offending piece and also enlarge the resulting depression to receive it I used a wood router (very carefully ) positioned within a captive mask /guide , my local friends also used the same method.
Suffice it to say the removed metal , when so thin it could be peeled out, was certainly NOT PRE ABRAIDED TO GIVE A GOOD BOND ANYWAY.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Kit 337

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud Yerly
Sent: 02 June 2013 18:14
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 13 Msgs - 06/01/13

Greetings Tony,



Moving the plates isn't all that bad but you are right in it takes time and patience. As for covering up your "curves" I prefer to see you fill with an epoxy filler. Personally, if a customer mucks up the wood shims, I fix it with Redux, set the socket and put peel ply around the edges of the taped up socket. Peel the socket off smooth and glass it up. Cover with your glass and peel ply well. Works fast and easy. Redux is as good as ply and with the extra glass on top it is bulletproof. To fill, you can use your expand cell with epoxy supplied in the kit. Make it good and thick. I know that it takes longer, but here is the reason:



Polyester resin and fillers will de-bond from epoxy. The rule is nothing on epoxy but epoxy or polyurethane paint. If polyester filler is used, it grips to rough surfaces and is best on metal , primer, or other polyester. Vinylester sticks to poly, and epoxy sticks to everything that is dry (no greasy poly please).



In experiments with my painter, polyester pops off epoxy gelcoat or weave (heat cured or not) in about a month unless sanded very course, but watch the edges, they are what de-bonds. All the filler MSDS sheets indicate do not put poly on epoxy. Vinylester is a different animal. It is a long molecule but not as long as epoxy. It will stick but will flake off with bending. I have Evercoat Rage Vinylester filler on one of my flaps as an experiment and have had no problem after 5 years. But the Evercoat folks tell me it will eventually peel.



Caution: Any filler or even glass tape with a raw edge will lift when painted with urethane. Always make sure you have a wet edge and peel plied in a stress area like a wing walk area or it will show a crack. Will it peel all the way, no but the inspection will have you grinding on a newly finished airplane.



As a general rule:

Fill with epoxy/expand cell, finish the smooth out with a sanding block to about 150 grit then prime. I fill pinholes by using Dupont 2K type filler primer but any will do. Any further minor imperfections in our experience are filled with a good quality glazing filler such as 3M, over the primer to fill those small imperfections. Keep it very thin. It sticks well, is fast and is easy to prime/sand/fill/prime to a perfect finish.



Stay away from resin and talc as it is heavy and will peel off epoxy.



I hate to do wheel pants and the transitions. I swear it is faster to fill the fuselage completely than wheel pants because of all the small curves. Once my glass work is done, I fill initially with expand cell and sand for a day. Once reasonably close, I prime, and break out the Rage. By the end of the day, I am ready to prime. I prime and spot fill/prime and shoot the polyurethane.



The cowl and doors are a baked ester resin, so Rage works on small dings pretty well.



Regards,

Bud
[quote]
---

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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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