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Choosing the switches for an RV-10

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trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:38 am Post subject: Choosing the switches for an RV-10

Guys

 

It’s time to choose the switches for the RV-10 panel, and I wonder which ones are more popular between the RV-10 builders:

 

For the Master and ALT field, have you used the Cessna split rocker or just 2 separate toggle switches?

 

For the magnetos and starter, did everybody use the ACS combined keyed switch, or is it better to use 2 toggles and one push-button momentary starter switch?

 

And for the lights and other electrical equipment, which has been the choice: the classic rocker switches or the color coded toggle switches?

 

Thanks for your opinions, both in the technical and the functional aspects

Carlos  

 

  [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:02 am Post subject: Choosing the switches for an RV-10

At 04:37 AM 7/7/2013, you wrote:

 Guys

  

 It’s time to choose the switches for the RV-10 panel, and I wonder which ones are more popular between the RV-10 builders:

  

 For the Master and ALT field, have you used the Cessna split rocker or just 2 separate toggle switches?



   The split rocker switch functionality can be

   duplicated by a progressive transfer switch

   of any other style. There's nothing 'magic'

   or extraordinary convenience for having purchase

   the split rocker switch.



  http://tinyurl.com/kdqwahq



 

  

 For the magnetos and starter, did everybody use the ACS combined keyed switch, or is it better to use 2 toggles and one push-button momentary starter switch?



   Similarly, there is nothing 'magic' about

   functionality of the legacy key-switch . . .

   which is expensive and takes up a lot of room



  http://tinyurl.com/ch3yly



   Your choice as to 'better'. What are your design

   goals for appearance, functionality, and cost

   of ownership? Is ease of fabrication, installation

   and wiring important to you?



  

 And for the lights and other electrical equipment, which has been the choice: the classic rocker switches or the color coded toggle switches?

  

 Thanks for your opinions, both in the technical and the functional aspects



 

   Over the years, we've had many discussions about switch selection

   on the List. If one surveys the constellation of completed

   airplanes in possession of List members it is a certainty

   that you will find a broad range of styles. 



   If it were my airplane, I would go 100% toggle switches

   for the following reasons:



   Easy to mount in ROUND hole made with spotfacer, stepdrill

   or punch. Contrast this with the $time$ and effort to

   craft rectangular holes for rocker switches.



  http://tinyurl.com/m45n4f7



 



   Functionally interchangeable switches are made by a host

   of manufacturers. Rocker switches are manufacturer specific.

   Replacing a switch calls for acquiring the same switch

   from the same manufacturer.



   Here's an exemplar set of switch arrangements

   tailored to system complexity.



  http://tinyurl.com/ljkw3ju



   I suggest the toggle switch fitted with fast-on

   terminals represents the lowest cost, greatest

   ease of installation and maintenance.



 

 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:47 am Post subject: Choosing the switches for an RV-10

  I suggest the toggle switch fitted with fast-on

   terminals represents the lowest cost, greatest

  ease of installation  and maintenance.



  

 [quote]   Another thing you might want to keep in mind in    your design is that some states / localities require that 2 key accesses be    used to enter and start the aircraft.  One of the keys can be to access    the door / canopy entry and as a second key you might use a simple key switch,    in a round hole, and with fast-on terminals, used in series with the start    button.  A failure of this switch, wired in this configuration would    prevent you from starting the aircraft, but would not affect engine operation    once it is running.

    

   Roger

[b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:57 pm Post subject: Choosing the switches for an RV-10

Carlos, I always use two toggles for the mags, and SPST key switch for the starter contactor and a pushbutton starter switch. It's cheaper if any of them fail and by having the mags separate from the starter switch I can turn the engine over for maintenance or diagnostics without worry that the engine will accidentally start. 



Rick Girard

do not archive



On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Roger & Jean <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net (mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		           I suggest the toggle switch fitted with fast-on

   terminals represents the lowest cost, greatest

  ease of installation  and maintenance.



  

 

 	  Quote: 	
		     Another thing you might want to keep in mind in    your design is that some states / localities require that 2 key accesses be    used to enter and start the aircraft.  One of the keys can be to access    the door / canopy entry and as a second key you might use a simple key switch,    in a round hole, and with fast-on terminals, used in series with the start    button.  A failure of this switch, wired in this configuration would    prevent you from starting the aircraft, but would not affect engine operation    once it is running.

    

   Roger

	
    	  Quote: 	
		  



ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




	




-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx

 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:09 pm Post subject: Choosing the switches for an RV-10

At 09:52 PM 7/7/2013, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Carlos, I always use two toggles for the mags, and SPST key switch 

for the starter contactor and a pushbutton starter switch. It's 

cheaper if any of them fail and by having the mags separate from the 

starter switch I can turn the engine over for maintenance or 

diagnostics without worry that the engine will accidentally start.


	


   Good point. I think you've mentioned this before.

   I'll try to remember to add it to my list of

   PRO-toggle arguments.



   Bob . . .

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:10 am Post subject: Choosing the switches for an RV-10

7/8/2013

  

 Hello Carlos, You wrote:  â€œFor the  magnetos and starter, did everybody use the ACS combined keyed

switch, or is  it better to use 2 toggles and one push-button momentary starter  switch?â€

  

 Given the wiring complexity (confusion) and  the widely published poor reliability of the ACS combined starter â€“ magneto  switch I am surprised that any amateur builder would even consider installing  such a switch in the aircraft that he is building.

  

 OC

  

 'O C' Baker  says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather and understand  information."

  

 PS: A more  ponderable choice is how to place the switches in the panel. Two schools of  thought are: a) Scatter the switches about the panel in some manner that locates  the switches close to the instrument or device being controlled (an ergonomic  philosophy); or b) Place all (or as many is feasible) of the switches in close  proximity so that at one glance one can tell if all switches are either ON or  OFF (a visual domination philosophy).

  

 =======================================

  



Time: 02:38:19 AM PST US

From: "Carlos Trigo"  <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)>

Subject: Choosing the switches  for an RV-10



Guys

It's time to choose the switches for the  RV-10 panel, and I wonder which

ones are more popular between the RV-10  builders:

For the Master and ALT field, have you used the Cessna  split rocker or just

2 separate toggle switches?

For the magnetos  and starter, did everybody use the ACS combined keyed

switch, or is it better  to use 2 toggles and one push-button momentary

starter switch?

And  for the lights and other electrical equipment, which has been the

choice: the  classic rocker switches or the color coded toggle switches?

Thanks  for your opinions, both in the technical and the functional  aspects



Carlos  

   [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:43 am Post subject: Choosing the switches for an RV-10

 	  Quote: 	
		  

  

 Given the wiring complexity (confusion) and the widely published poor reliability of the ACS combined starter – magneto switch I am surprised that any amateur builder would even consider installing such a switch in the aircraft that he is building.

  

 OC 	


     Can you point me to the discussions about this product?

     Are reliability issues centered on any one feature

     of the design?  This switch is a clone of the legacy

     Bendix/Gerdes product popularlized in the single-engine

     markets waaayyy back when. I think I recall seeing a

     twin that needed two-keys to go flying.  I'm wondering

     if the problems are not centered on starter contactor

     currents. The FAA saw fit to mandate adding a diode

     to the circuit for airplanes that were being upgraded

     to modern, two-stage solenoid/contactors . . . when

     in fact, contact opening arcing was just the worst

     of stress . . . that 30A inrush was still there . . .

     a stress that the switch was never designed to manage.



 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

rv7a.n18pf(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:05 pm Post subject: Choosing the switches for an RV-10

I installed the ACS keyed switch in a homebuilt I finished in 1990.  Wiring was straight forward (Bob has a good diagram in the Z figures), and it has given me 23 years of reliable service.  I put another one in my most recent project and it has been working fine for four years. So my personal experience does not support your statement below.    

It is simply part of the "security theater".  As long as you are comfortable, toggle switches will work as well.   

YMMV, but the ACS switch has worked fine for me. 

Paul A. Fisher

 Q-200 N17PF - ~1,400 hours

 RV-7A N18PF- ~400 hours On Jul 8, 2013 9:16 AM, "Owen Baker" <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:[quote]     7/8/2013

  

 Hello Carlos, You wrote:  “For the  magnetos and starter, did everybody use the ACS combined keyed

switch, or is  it better to use 2 toggles and one push-button momentary starter  switch?”

  

 Given the wiring complexity (confusion) and  the widely published poor reliability of the ACS combined starter – magneto  switch I am surprised that any amateur builder would even consider installing  such a switch in the aircraft that he is building.

  

 OC

  

 'O C' Baker  says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather and understand  information."

  

 PS: A more  ponderable choice is how to place the switches in the panel. Two schools of  thought are: a) Scatter the switches about the panel in some manner that locates  the switches close to the instrument or device being controlled (an ergonomic  philosophy); or b) Place all (or as many is feasible) of the switches in close  proximity so that at one glance one can tell if all switches are either ON or  OFF (a visual domination philosophy).

  

 ==============

  



Time: 02:38:19 AM PST US

From: "Carlos Trigo"  <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)>

Subject: Choosing the switches  for an RV-10



Guys

It's time to choose the switches for the  RV-10 panel, and I wonder which

ones are more popular between the RV-10  builders:

For the Master and ALT field, have you used the Cessna  split rocker or just

2 separate toggle switches?

For the magnetos  and starter, did everybody use the ACS combined keyed

switch, or is it better  to use 2 toggles and one push-button momentary

starter switch?

And  for the lights and other electrical equipment, which has been the

choice: the  classic rocker switches or the color coded toggle switches?

Thanks  for your opinions, both in the technical and the functional  aspects



Carlos  

    	  Quote: 	
		  



ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:09 am Post subject: Choosing the switches for an RV-10

7/9/2013

  

 Hello Bob Nuckolls, 

  

 On 7/8/13 you wrote: â€œCan you point me to the discussions about this  product? Are reliability issues centered on any one feature of the design?â€ (See  posting copied below.)

  

 On 8/16/2004 You wrote: â€œHave you considered getting your money back and  putting in toggle switches? In my never humble opinion, key-switches suck.â€ (See  posting copied below)

  

 OC

  

 PS: In the interest of brevity I did only one archive search of the  aeroelectriclist, using only the search term ACS SWITCH, and selected only one  posting of the 16 that showed up. 

  

 =======================================

 Time: 07:43:03 AM PST US

 From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

 Subject: Re: Choosing the switches for an RV-10

  

  

 >

 >

 >Given the wiring complexity (confusion) and the 

 >widely published poor reliability of the ACS 

 >combined starter ' magneto switch I am surprised 

 >that any amateur builder would even consider 

 >installing such a switch in the aircraft that he is building.

 >

 >OC

  

      Can you point me to the discussions about this  product?

      Are reliability issues centered on any one  feature

      of the design?  This switch is a clone of the  legacy

      Bendix/Gerdes product popularlized in the  single-engine

      markets waaayyy back when. I think I recall seeing  a

      twin that needed two-keys to go flying.  I'm  wondering

      if the problems are not centered on starter  contactor

      currents. The FAA saw fit to mandate adding a  diode

      to the circuit for airplanes that were being  upgraded

      to modern, two-stage solenoid/contactors . . .  when

      in fact, contact opening arcing was just the  worst

      of stress . . . that 30A inrush was still there .  . .

      a stress that the switch was never designed to  manage.

  

  

    Bob . . .  

 ==========================

  

 Match: #3Message: #42083From: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>Subject: Igntion  SwitchesDate: Jul 21, 2008 7/21/2008 

  

 Hello Skip, You wrote: "I saw the referenced ACS Keyed Ignition Switches  and a starter switch. What is the benefit in two switches over one?" I am glad  you asked. The history of these types of ignition switches:  http://www.aircraftspruce.com/search/search.php does not fill one with great  confidence. See: http://tinyurl.com/j3m5j They are mechanical devices, of not  necessarily the highest quality -- sort of like an old time watch -- with a lot  of little bits and pieces inside that can get worn / broken. Actually I'd prefer  three switches. A simple, reliable, separate toggle switch for each magneto P  lead, and a push button switch with a guard on it for activating the starter  contact solenoid. 

  

 See the postings copied below for other's experience with the ACS / Bendix  keyed type switches. 

  

 -------------------------------------------- {#} Replies are directed back  to kisbuilders(at)angus.mystery.com {#} To reply to the author, write to  Keith.Miller(at)esa.int OC I started with the standard ACS switch , but junked  it after it left one of the mags live after switching off , now I also have 3  seperate switches ( 2 "heavy duty" for the mags and a "push to make" type for  the starter ).

  

 ----------------------------------------------------------- Message: #19408  Date: Aug 16, 2004 From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"  Subject: Re: ACS switch  issues for Rotax 912S > > >Ok, I traced it down to the ACS ignition  switch (P/N A-510-2). When I >switch to the left side ("R") it will cut out  sometimes. Not very often >but if I do it just right then off she goes. The  switch only had been >used about 40 hours when this started showing up. >  >It appears that it is grounding, or at least partially grounding,  >inadvertently when switched over to that "mag". > >Could it have to do  with the diode issue that ACS mentions with regards to >impulse coupled mags?  The diode was added to the starter contactor control circuit . . . with totally  bogus engineering behind it. See  http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spikecatcher.pdf >FWIW I've wired  according to Bob's notes with the shield acting as the >ground. I was very  very careful when wiring and so far this is the only >electrical problem I've  had. > >I've also wiggled all the wires around behind the switch (and also  the >engine) and it doesn't seem to be any of the wires. I'm guessing it's  >internal to the switch or something to do with a spike of some sort. >  >Any other ideas before I pull the switch out and send it back to ACS? Have  you considered getting your money back and putting in toggle switches? In my  never humble opinion, key-switches suck. Bob . . . 

  

 ----------------------------------------- ---

trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:32 am Post subject: Choosing the switches for an RV-10

Thank you all for your opinions, I ‘m still undecided but I think I will follow the toggle route.

 

Best

Carlos

 

 

==============



 

Time: 02:38:19 AM PST US

From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)>

Subject: Choosing the switches for an RV-10



Guys

It's time to choose the switches for the RV-10 panel, and I wonder which

ones are more popular between the RV-10 builders:

For the Master and ALT field, have you used the Cessna split rocker or just

2 separate toggle switches?

For the magnetos and starter, did everybody use the ACS combined keyed

switch, or is it better to use 2 toggles and one push-button momentary

starter switch?

And for the lights and other electrical equipment, which has been the

choice: the classic rocker switches or the color coded toggle switches?

Thanks for your opinions, both in the technical and the functional aspects



Carlos  



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  [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:12 am Post subject: Choosing the switches for an RV-10

At 06:08 AM 7/9/2013, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  7/9/2013



Hello Bob Nuckolls,



On 7/8/13 you wrote: â€œCan you point me to the 

discussions about this product? Are reliability 

issues centered on any one feature of the 

design?â€ (See posting copied below.)



On 8/16/2004 You wrote: â€œHave you considered 

getting your money back and putting in toggle 

switches? In my never humble opinion, 

key-switches suck.â€ (See posting copied below)



OC




	


    Thank you. Yeah, I was aware that we'd thrashed some

    ACS switch issues here on the List . . . was wondering

    if you were aware of problems surfacing in other forums.

    I think my reference to the relative 'suckiness' of key

    switches was framed in notion that airplanes needed to

    emulate automobiles, that the switch is big and expensive,

    and that keys offered any great measure of security.



    I flew a rental airplane home after having lost the

    keys. Wiggled the terminals on the back of the

    switch until they broke off, hand propped the airplane

    and brought it home. Replaced the terminals when I

    got back and replaced the key. Other pilots have

    done the lost-key work-around by breaking the termimals

    off the back of the mags.



    It would have been interesting to do a tear-down on

    the problem switch. I'm thinking that it was an

    isolated incident and that for the most part the

    Off-L-R-B-S key switches perform as advertised.

    I just don't think they're an elegant solution to a

    simple design problem.





   Bob . . .

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