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JOHN TIPTON
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 239
Location: Torquay - England
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ronburnett(at)charter.net
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 Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:07 am Post subject: Copper Bar |
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As suggested once by Mr. Bob, you can put a piece of copper pipe in a vise. Works great.
Ron Burnett
RV-6A
Sent from my iPadMay you have the blessings of the Lord today.
On Jan 28, 2014, at 9:40 AM, JOHN TIPTON <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com (jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com)> wrote:
[quote]Hi Guys
Is this suitable for the Contactor connections, ANL fuse link etc, or is 3mm thickness too much
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390692340635?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649
Best regards
John (RV9a - work in progress)
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lectric-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
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ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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jluckey(at)pacbell.net
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:59 am Post subject: Copper Bar |
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John,
3mm is about 1/8 of an inch (if my math is correct) and that thickness is more than enough to handle starter current - if you bussing does not need to handle that much current then you could go w/ thinner material.
Another consideration is that copper oxidizes very quickly so you need to make sure that the connections are very clean when you assemble. In industry, copper bussbars are commonly plated w/ either silver or tin to protect against poor connection quality due to oxidation.
Brass is another material commonly used in electrical busses & devices and it does not oxidize as quickly and is less expensive. I just made some bussbars from .050 brass (they were not in the starter circuit) and the brass was easy to work with & cheaper than the equivalent copper.
-Jeff
From: JOHN TIPTON <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
To: "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com" <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 7:40 AM
Subject: Copper Bar
Hi Guys
Is this suitable for the Contactor connections, ANL fuse link etc, or is 3mm thickness too much
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390692340635?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649
Best regards
John (RV9a - work in progress)
[quote][b]
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:33 am Post subject: Copper Bar |
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| Quote: | Another consideration is that copper oxidizes very quickly so you
need to make sure that the connections are very clean when you
assemble. In industry, copper bussbars are commonly plated w/
either silver or tin to protect against poor connection quality due
to oxidation.
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If the joined materials are in good contact with
each other and made up with sufficient force, joint
integrity is assured in spite of any corrosion visible
outside the joint. So FLAT, clean parts bolted together
with non-trivial force is the key . . .
This is one of the reasons why I have not been a
strong proponent of mashing copper round things
into copper flat things for use as bus bars . . .
it's hard to get them really flat around the bolt
holes.
If you can start with sheet materials, then you are
75% of the way along the path to gas-tight Nirvana.
| Quote: | Brass is another material commonly used in electrical busses &
devices and it does not oxidize as quickly and is less expensive. I
just made some bussbars from .050 brass (they were not in the
starter circuit) and the brass was easy to work with & cheaper than
the equivalent copper.
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A reader pointed out here on the List that brass
(depending on alloy) has a resistance 2 to 3x
that of copper. So to get the same temperature
rise on a brass bar, it needs to be at least 2x
more 'meat' between the studs.
Just to put it into perspective, a 4AWG
wire is 250 micro-ohms per foot. 200A
would give us a voltage drop on the order
of 50mV/foot. A 4" length of 4AWG
between studs would drop 1/3 that or 16
mV.
In this experiment I conducted on the bench
a few years back
http://tinyurl.com/k9v6mnt
a strip of brass shim stock .75" wide and
.005" thick offered a 40F rise at 20A of
current flow and a 58mV drop. Consider a
brass bar .75 x .05 (10x thicker) at 200A
would offer about the same performance.
We'd have to be 3 times thicker yet or .15"
to bring voltage drop into the same neighborhood
as 4AWG copper.
A copper bar could be 1/2 that thickness
and offer the about the same performance.
4awg has a cross section of 0.03 square
inches. So a copper strip .062 thick
needs to be 0.03/0.63 or about 0.50"
wide. You can't drill 0.32 holes in
strip that narrow so a 0.75" wide x
0.062" copper is a good choice for
this application.
Bob . . .
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:39 am Post subject: Copper Bar |
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At 09:40 AM 1/28/2014, you wrote:
It would work nicely. It's a bit thick so you
won't be able to put many more terminals on the
same studs . . . but it's certainly capable
electrically as described in my post of a few
minutes ago.
Bob . . . [quote][b]
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Eric M. Jones
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:33 am Post subject: Re: Copper Bar |
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The optimal way to make bus bars is to use Copper-Clad Aluminum. I have tried to get these add to my product line, but complications regarding size and quantity have delayed the deal.
Still, there's some out there someplace. Weighs about half what copper weighs.
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_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:39 am Post subject: Copper Bar |
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At 07:33 AM 1/31/2014, you wrote:
| Quote: |
The optimal way to make bus bars is to use Copper-Clad Aluminum. I
have tried to get these add to my product line, but complications
regarding size and quantity have delayed the deal.
Still, there's some out there someplace. Weighs about half what copper weighs.
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But how would that work? What thickness
of cladding are you looking for? Same
question goes to the advantages offered
by copper clad aluminum wire.
Copper and aluminum are not that far
separated for resistance so for the addition
of copper to reduce cross section of aluminum
for purposes of conserving energy is minimal . . .
the copper is not likely to be more than a few
mils thick.
On the other hand, that thin layer of copper
greatly benefits the installer's ability to
secure a high quality, gas-tight connection with
the aluminum either by crimping or soldering.
A short-fall that has plagued the use of
aluminum wiring for decades.
Are you asserting that a copper clad, aluminum
bus material will weigh half that of an
equivalency in copper because cladding
has improved on conductivity . . . our just
connectivity . . . or both? And what is the
expected weight savings for having substituted
aluminum for copper in a piece that is
3-4 inches long?
A copper bus 4 x .75 x .062 inches is about
0.2 cu inch (3.2 cu-cm) of copper for a
weight on the order of 30 grams. What is
the return on investment for saving less than
15 grams of weight with the application of a
sophisticated bus-bar material?
The copper clad wires of significant length
can have some savings of scale that are
attractive . . . savings that don't seem
to repeat with bus-bar material.
Bob . . .
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dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:07 am Post subject: Copper Bar |
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I've used 1100 aluminum sheet for several bus bars on various airplanes. My own plane has been flying for 7 years and 1300 hrs with 0 bus issues. I put a drop of CorrosionX on each screw hoping it will help prevent any corrosion taking root at the connection. I found the ratio for resistance for alum/copper and sized it accordingly. Cheap, light, great conductor.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 9:38 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>
At 07:33 AM 1/31/2014, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net (emjones(at)charter.net)>
The optimal way to make bus bars is to use Copper-Clad Aluminum. I have tried to get these add to my product line, but complications regarding size and quantity have delayed the deal.
Still, there's some out there someplace. Weighs about half what copper weighs.
|
But how would that work? What thickness
of cladding are you looking for? Same
question goes to the advantages offered
by copper clad aluminum wire.
Copper and aluminum are not that far
separated for resistance so for the addition
of copper to reduce cross section of aluminum
for purposes of conserving energy is minimal . . .
the copper is not likely to be more than a few
mils thick.
On the other hand, that thin layer of copper
greatly benefits the installer's ability to
secure a high quality, gas-tight connection with
the aluminum either by crimping or soldering.
A short-fall that has plagued the use of
aluminum wiring for decades.
Are you asserting that a copper clad, aluminum
bus material will weigh half that of an
equivalency in copper because cladding
has improved on conductivity . . . our just
connectivity . . . or both? And what is the
expected weight savings for having substituted
aluminum for copper in a piece that is
3-4 inches long?
A copper bus 4 x .75 x .062 inches is about
0.2 cu inch (3.2 cu-cm) of copper for a
weight on the order of 30 grams. What is
the return on investment for saving less than
15 grams of weight with the application of a
sophisticated bus-bar material?
The copper clad wires of significant length
can have some savings of scale that are
attractive . . . savings that don't seem
to repeat with bus-bar material.
Bob . . .
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Eric M. Jones
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Copper Bar |
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| Quote: | Copper and aluminum are not that far
separated for resistance...Bob N.) |
Bob, There are many ways to measure conductivity. But when you care about weight:
The Figure of Merit is Conductivity per unit mass (x 1000)
Aluminum =137
Copper = 66
So Aluminum is more than twice as conductive per unit mass as Copper. And it would be a whole lot cheaper too, except that every piece of Copper-Clad Aluminum is custom built. The CCA I use to make battery cables is 10% (by diameter) Copper and 90% Aluminum. The electric company just uses plain aluminum and employs special mean to terminate the wires.
One big advantage of CCA is that it has very low scrap value (thus no theft). Furthermore the price can be set and guaranteed going into the future because Aluminum's price is very stable.
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_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net |
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