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gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
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 Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:44 am Post subject: Tinnerman washers on cowling |
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Hi Gang,
I am in the process of checking different methods to mount the Southco fasteners onto the cowling as per the mod. It's definitely a bit more work to get them properly in place in comparison to the stainless screws/nutplates. Hopefully, the time spent now will come back later when removing the cowling a bunch of times.
I have a quick question..
After countersinking the outer cowling to accept the center area of the tinnerman washers, is the outer surface of the washer meant to be proud of the cowling surface, or are they meant to sit flush? Though it may not cause too much drag, wouldn't it make sense to countersink the whole washer, or am I over-thinking it?
If they are meant to be proud, has anyone set them flush and how did that work out?
Also, I notice that the fasteners don't sit quite flat to the face of the tinnerman whereas the screw sat perfectly flat. Now I am going to have to look into re-shaping the head on the fastener, or the bowl in the washer. There's always something lurking around every corner to soak up my build time..
Greg
[quote][b]
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gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:03 am Post subject: Tinnerman washers on cowling |
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Just a quick addition here:
One reason for the question of whether the tinnerman sits on or flush to the surface is to get the thickness of material between the two sides of the fastener just right. It seems to work best at just the proper thickness. Any changes later would require re-doing the receptacle, requiring a lot of time. It might be an easier question to answer if I knew the cowl was built up with layers of glass only. Any less-dense filler between the inner and outer layers might compromise strength in a rebated but flush-set fastening system. With the cowl being all white, there is no way to see through. It seems to be all glass..I just cannot tell for sure, especially with some dimpling being seen around the clecos. I'd like to start placing fasteners today or tomorrow..
The Europa is quite a clean aircraft aerodynamically, with nice sleek lines and smooth skins, so I was envisioning an all-flat cowl fastening system (similar in concept to a flush-fitting screw head), but I have been told on occasion, that I am 'overthinking' something.
Maybe this is one of those times?
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Fuchs
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 3:44 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Tinnerman washers on cowling
After countersinking the outer cowling to accept the center area of the tinnerman washers, is the outer surface of the washer meant to be proud of the cowling surface, or are they meant to sit flush? Though it may not cause too much drag, wouldn't it make sense to countersink the whole washer, or am I over-thinking it?
If they are meant to be proud, has anyone set them flush and how did that work out?
[quote][b]
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Fred Klein
Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:40 pm Post subject: Tinnerman washers on cowling |
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Greg…I believe that conceptually, the tinnerman washer is designed to fit into a chamfered hole somewhat larger than the diameter of the fastener…this will automatically bring the perimeter surface of the washer down to the surface of your cowl.
I take it that when you use the word, “flush”, this is what you mean, given that the thickness of the tinnerman is so very thin.
If, on the other hand, you’re ruminating on whether or not to recess the entire face of the tinnerman, I’d venture to opine that you may be “overhanging”.
I have never examined a stock Europa cowl, but I do believe it is solid FG, not a foam core sandwich.
Fred
On Aug 21, 2014, at 12:02 PM, Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net (gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Just a quick addition here:
One reason for the question of whether the tinnerman sits on or flush to the surface is to get the thickness of material between the two sides of the fastener just right. It seems to work best at just the proper thickness. Any changes later would require re-doing the receptacle, requiring a lot of time. It might be an easier question to answer if I knew the cowl was built up with layers of glass only. Any less-dense filler between the inner and outer layers might compromise strength in a rebated but flush-set fastening system. With the cowl being all white, there is no way to see through. It seems to be all glass..I just cannot tell for sure, especially with some dimpling being seen around the clecos. I'd like to start placing fasteners today or tomorrow..
The Europa is quite a clean aircraft aerodynamically, with nice sleek lines and smooth skins, so I was envisioning an all-flat cowl fastening system (similar in concept to a flush-fitting screw head), but I have been told on occasion, that I am 'overthinking' something.
Maybe this is one of those times?
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Greg Fuchs
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 3:44 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Tinnerman washers on cowling
After countersinking the outer cowling to accept the center area of the tinnerman washers, is the outer surface of the washer meant to be proud of the cowling surface, or are they meant to sit flush? Though it may not cause too much drag, wouldn't it make sense to countersink the whole washer, or am I over-thinking it?
If they are meant to be proud, has anyone set them flush and how did that work out?
| Quote: |
style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://forums.matronics.com
style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
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[quote][b]
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Fred Klein
Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:43 pm Post subject: Tinnerman washers on cowling |
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Greg…I believe that conceptually, the tinnerman washer is designed to fit into a chamfered hole somewhat larger than the diameter of the fastener…this will automatically bring the perimeter surface of the washer down to the surface of your cowl.
I take it that when you use the word, “flush”, this is what you mean, given that the thickness of the tinnerman is so very thin.
If, on the other hand, you’re ruminating on whether or not to recess the entire face of the tinnerman, I’d venture to opine that you may be “overhanging”.
(Whoops…sorry…that was meant to be “overthinking”, not “overhanging”.)
I have never examined a stock Europa cowl, but I do believe it is solid FG, not a foam core sandwich.
Fred
On Aug 21, 2014, at 12:02 PM, Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net (gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Just a quick addition here:
One reason for the question of whether the tinnerman sits on or flush to the surface is to get the thickness of material between the two sides of the fastener just right. It seems to work best at just the proper thickness. Any changes later would require re-doing the receptacle, requiring a lot of time. It might be an easier question to answer if I knew the cowl was built up with layers of glass only. Any less-dense filler between the inner and outer layers might compromise strength in a rebated but flush-set fastening system. With the cowl being all white, there is no way to see through. It seems to be all glass..I just cannot tell for sure, especially with some dimpling being seen around the clecos. I'd like to start placing fasteners today or tomorrow..
The Europa is quite a clean aircraft aerodynamically, with nice sleek lines and smooth skins, so I was envisioning an all-flat cowl fastening system (similar in concept to a flush-fitting screw head), but I have been told on occasion, that I am 'overthinking' something.
Maybe this is one of those times?
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Greg Fuchs
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 3:44 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Tinnerman washers on cowling
After countersinking the outer cowling to accept the center area of the tinnerman washers, is the outer surface of the washer meant to be proud of the cowling surface, or are they meant to sit flush? Though it may not cause too much drag, wouldn't it make sense to countersink the whole washer, or am I over-thinking it?
If they are meant to be proud, has anyone set them flush and how did that work out?
| Quote: |
style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://forums.matronics.com
style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
|
[quote][b]
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gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:46 am Post subject: Tinnerman washers on cowling |
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I am in fact- ruminating about recessing the entire face of the tinnerman. I guess it's good to know I may be overthinking this one.
Regards, and Good luck with the final stages of your build,
Greg (back on track)
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 2:42 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Tinnerman washers on cowling
Greg…I believe that conceptually, the tinnerman washer is designed to fit into a chamfered hole somewhat larger than the diameter of the fastener…this will automatically bring the perimeter surface of the washer down to the surface of your cowl.
I take it that when you use the word, “flush”, this is what you mean, given that the thickness of the tinnerman is so very thin.
If, on the other hand, you’re ruminating on whether or not to recess the entire face of the tinnerman, I’d venture to opine that you may be “overhanging”.
(Whoops…sorry…that was meant to be “overthinking”, not “overhanging”.)
I have never examined a stock Europa cowl, but I do believe it is solid FG, not a foam core sandwich.
Fred
[quote][b]
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:55 am Post subject: Tinnerman washers on cowling |
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Countersink the cowling enough to sit the Twasher flat on the cowl then fill to level it off
and leave a recess for the rim of the washer.
Easy to do if you are obsessed with the boundary layer. Probably it is already disturbed
by the thrashing propeller anyway so nice appearance is the only advantage.
Graham
From: Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, 22 August 2014, 10:45
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tinnerman washers on cowling
I am in fact- ruminating about recessing the entire face of the tinnerman. I guess it's good to know I may be overthinking this one.
Regards, and Good luck with the final stages of your build,
Greg (back on track)
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 2:42 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Tinnerman washers on cowling
Greg…I believe that conceptually, the tinnerman washer is designed to fit into a chamfered hole somewhat larger than the diameter of the fastener…this will automatically bring the perimeter surface of the washer down to the surface of your cowl.
I take it that when you use the word, “flush”, this is what you mean, given that the thickness of the tinnerman is so very thin.
If, on the other hand, you’re ruminating on whether or not to recess the entire face of the tinnerman, I’d venture to opine that you may be “overhanging”.
(Whoops…sorry…that was meant to be “overthinking”, not “overhanging”.)
I have never examined a stock Europa cowl, but I do believe it is solid FG, not a foam core sandwich.
Fred
[quote]http://www.ma"nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://f==========
[quote][b]
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gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:52 am Post subject: Tinnerman washers on cowling |
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Hmm..good idea. I'll be staring at the items tomorrow to try to figure out how to proceed..
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 2:54 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Tinnerman washers on cowling
Countersink the cowling enough to sit the Twasher flat on the cowl then fill to level it off
and leave a recess for the rim of the washer.
Easy to do if you are obsessed with the boundary layer. Probably it is already disturbed
by the thrashing propeller anyway so nice appearance is the only advantage.
Graham
From: Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, 22 August 2014, 10:45
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tinnerman washers on cowling
I am in fact- ruminating about recessing the entire face of the tinnerman. I guess it's good to know I may be overthinking this one.
Regards, and Good luck with the final stages of your build,
Greg (back on track)
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 2:42 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Tinnerman washers on cowling
Greg…I believe that conceptually, the tinnerman washer is designed to fit into a chamfered hole somewhat larger than the diameter of the fastener…this will automatically bring the perimeter surface of the washer down to the surface of your cowl.
I take it that when you use the word, “flush”, this is what you mean, given that the thickness of the tinnerman is so very thin.
If, on the other hand, you’re ruminating on whether or not to recess the entire face of the tinnerman, I’d venture to opine that you may be “overhanging”.
(Whoops…sorry…that was meant to be “overthinking”, not “overhanging”.)
I have never examined a stock Europa cowl, but I do believe it is solid FG, not a foam core sandwich.
Fred
[quote]http://www.ma"nofollow"
target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://f==========
[quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:12 am Post subject: Tinnerman washers on cowling |
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Greg
if you do go this way, mix a bit of flox in the micro-balloons to give
it some wear resistance
Graham
From: Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, 22 August 2014, 11:51
Subject: RE: Tinnerman washers on cowling
Hmm..good idea. I'll be staring at the items tomorrow to try to figure out how to proceed..
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 2:54 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Tinnerman washers on cowling
Countersink the cowling enough to sit the Twasher flat on the cowl then fill to level it off
and leave a recess for the rim of the washer.
Easy to do if you are obsessed with the boundary layer. Probably it is already disturbed
by the thrashing propeller anyway so nice appearance is the only advantage.
Graham
From: Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, 22 August 2014, 10:45
Subject: RE: Tinnerman washers on cowling
I am in fact- ruminating about recessing the entire face of the tinnerman. I guess it's good to know I may be overthinking this one.
Regards, and Good luck with the final stages of your build,
Greg (back on track)
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 2:42 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Tinnerman washers on cowling
Greg…I believe that conceptually, the tinnerman washer is designed to fit into a chamfered hole somewhat larger than the diameter of the fastener…this will automatically bring the perimeter surface of the washer down to the surface of your cowl.
I take it that when you use the word, “flush”, this is what you mean, given that the thickness of the tinnerman is so very thin.
If, on the other hand, you’re ruminating on whether or not to recess the entire face of the tinnerman, I’d venture to opine that you may be “overhanging”.
(Whoops…sorry…that was meant to be “overthinking”, not “overhanging”.)
I have never examined a stock Europa cowl, but I do believe it is solid FG, not a foam core sandwich.
Fred
[quote]http://www.ma"nofollow"
target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://f==========
[quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
ank" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.mat"nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://f==========
[b]
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Fred Klein
Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:46 am Post subject: Tinnerman washers on cowling |
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On Aug 22, 2014, at 2:54 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | | Countersink the cowling enough to sit the Twasher flat on the cowl then fill to level it offand leave a recess for the rim of the washer. Easy to do if you are obsessed with the boundary layer. |
Wow…love it...always something to learn on this list…Fred
[quote][b]
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