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graeme bird

Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:25 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

I am very interested in this when it comes out.

I see the article in the LAA mag defining the probably approach for a permit

I was trying to find out what the min instrument fit for IFR is?

I imagine AH, DI, ASI, VSI, ALT, turn Coordinator, clock?

I couldn't work out if it meant the CAA were insisting on certified instruments



I cant see the point in DME, VOR etc so perhaps a couple of GPSs



Thankfully I have kept my IMC license valid so thats one less thing

_________________
Graeme Bird
kit4 (Wagstaff) TBD
Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
Kit2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive
Kit 1 G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS 912S, Woodcomp G(@)gdbmk.co.uk

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:35 am Post subject: Re: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Hi .

A member completed his IMC rating on a Europa, I am still not sure if this possible, and not going to post on it,

However I received an 869 page document from the CAA,

There were so many vague points it was a mine field, all I can say is the test has to be carried out on a certified aeroplane that is fully duel controlled and a swing over control column is not acceptable.

It listed the required instruments and avionic, but it did not say about certified instrument or avionics, it did say only two types of GPS where acceptable.

I made several phone calls and many e-mails at the time, but still could not get a definite answers to my question, every question lead to another factor, so gave up in the end.

Alan

dg.watts(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:29 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Alan,



I can't believe that you are harping on abut this again after the last episode where you were quite definitely pointed in the right direction to read all the relevant rules regarding training for and doing the test on a Permit to Fly aircraft. IT IS PERMITTED. It has been permitted relatively quite recently, I can't remember exactly when, but a couple of years if my memory serves me correcty.



If some body new dragged up an old resolved subject it is a bit acceptable, but when the same person drags up a subject again, just because they can't accept the answers they got, I find this totally unacceptable.



Dave



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 5 Sep 2014, at 14:35, "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi .

 A member completed his IMC rating on a Europa, I am still not sure if this possible, and not going to post on it,

 However I received an 869 page document from the CAA,

 There were so many vague points it was a mine field, all I can say is the test has to be carried out on a certified aeroplane that is fully duel controlled and a swing over control column is not acceptable.

 It listed the required instruments and avionic, but it did not say about certified instrument or avionics, it did say only two types of GPS where acceptable.

 I made several phone calls and many e-mails at the time, but still could not get a definite answers to my question, every question lead to another factor, so gave up in the end.

 Alan

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430043#430043

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:45 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

I think we need a bit of patience on this one.  The current activity with

the LAA and UK CAA involves a trial to determine the detailed procedures and

policies.  When this trial is complete, and the CAA have approved

everything, the LAA will issue a Technical Leaflet which will explain, in

detail, how to get your aircraft approved for night/IFR operations.

It has taken 6 years of studies and negotiations to get this far but we are

nearly there!



Regards



Brian Davies



--

spcialeffects

Joined: 29 Aug 2012
Posts: 306
Location: Kent

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:57 pm Post subject: Re: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Hi Brian. Well I for one can't wait for your technical letter out lining what is acceptable or required as I am putting off buying my panel at the moment so that I can build a fully accepted IFR fit panel. I am buying dynon throught out as I consider it value for money.

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:41 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Hi



Anybody know what we are hoping to get out of this.  Will you be able to 

fly a Europa IFR in Class A as per a fully certified aeroplane?



Pete



On 06/09/14 06:57, spcialeffects wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi Brian. Well I for one can't wait for your technical letter out lining what is acceptable or required as I am putting off buying my panel at the moment so that I can build a fully accepted IFR fit panel. I am buying dynon throught out as I consider it value for money.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430091#430091

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:06 am Post subject: Re: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Good point Peter.

I think if you have certified aeroplanes with certified instruments and avionic  flying along with permit aircraft on airways without certified equipment would make some people very unhappy, especially  having spend 10s of thousands of pounds on there equipment, my guess it will on similar lines to what the IMC rating allows you to do which is quite reasonable, for the average light aircraft pilot .

In my chats with the CAA apparently you can do the whole coarse under the hood without ever entering or experiencing real cloud.



Alan

alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:09 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

According to this months LAA Magazine the answer is no.

Alan

G-OBJT

On 6 Sep 2014, at 09:40, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Hi

 Anybody know what we are hoping to get out of this.  Will you be able to fly a Europa IFR in Class A as per a fully certified aeroplane?

 Pete

 On 06/09/14 06:57, spcialeffects wrote:

> 

> 

> Hi Brian. Well I for one can't wait for your technical letter out lining what is acceptable or required as I am putting off buying my panel at the moment so that I can build a fully accepted IFR fit panel. I am buying dynon throught out as I consider it value for money.

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430091#430091

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:28 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Well even so it will be very good first step in the right direction.



On 06/09/14 10:08, Alan Burrill wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 According to this months LAA Magazine the answer is no.



 Alan

 G-OBJT

 On 6 Sep 2014, at 09:40, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info> wrote:



> 

>

> Hi

>

> Anybody know what we are hoping to get out of this.  Will you be able to fly a Europa IFR in Class A as per a fully certified aeroplane?

>

> Pete

>

> On 06/09/14 06:57, spcialeffects wrote:

>> 

>>

>> Hi Brian. Well I for one can't wait for your technical letter out lining what is acceptable or required as I am putting off buying my panel at the moment so that I can build a fully accepted IFR fit panel. I am buying dynon throught out as I consider it value for money.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Read this topic online here:

>>

>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430091#430091

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

>

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:31 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Hi Alan



Did you notice in the 800 plus pages if you still need an ADF to fly a 

GPS approach?  It certainly was the case at Staverton that you could fly 

down to limits with a GPS but needed to use the ADF to go round the hold 

at 3,000 feet.



Pete



On 06/09/14 10:06, Alan Carter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Good point Peter.

 I think if you have certified aeroplanes with certified instruments and avionic  flying along with permit aircraft on airways without certified equipment would make some people very unhappy, especially  having spend 10s of thousands of pounds on there equipment, my guess it will on similar lines to what the IMC rating allows you to do which is quite reasonable, for the average light aircraft pilot .

 In my chats with the CAA apparently you can do the whole coarse under the hood without ever entering or experiencing real cloud.



 Alan





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430095#430095

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:01 am Post subject: Re: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Hi Peter.

Sorry but without going through those 869 pages again I can,t remember,

But to comply with everything was a nightmare, ie Course, payment, Dual controls, insurance, instructor, Examiner, What is states on the back of your permit etc, about adding ratings , I gave up in the end.

Do remember at the time only two types of GPS were approved,

The kit you have to have is that required for the syllabus ,and I am pretty sure you have to use an ADF, but that Leeds into another question, can it be a Pseudo ADF on the GPS, as you know this will not suffer all the errors as the real ADF, like Coastal Refraction, Wing refraction, Storms, etc, etc,

Its a real tricky subject, as I was finding with the CAA one question lead into another and my phone bill and time were being eaten away.

Alan

Bring back DECKA that will sorts them out., Redlines, orange lines green lines etc, only joking.

alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:40 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Peter,

In my experience the missed approach procedure is set up as a means of 'escape' as a result of the Hazard Analysis on the approach as well as a means to 'going around' should minimums not be met.

If the primary approach system, ground or aircraft equipment, fails then the missed approach procedure would be a secondary means of addressing that failure.

In other words on an ILS approach if the ILS fails then the missed approach would be either of NDB or VOR.

I could go on all day on explaining but it is essentially that premise which often means that you will see a GPS approach with an alternate NDB or VOR missed approach procedure.

I've not seen a missed approach on a GPS, or radar, yet but I would expect one at some time but I think that it would be secondary to another primary approach.

The current equipment list for CAT flights does not require an NDB for Airways in the UK, this was dropped a few years ago, however they are required to carry equipment required to undertake the published missed approach procedure.

As I've always flown aircraft fitted with all the requirements, including NDB, I've never looked at the regulations closer. With the prospect of a Europa possible being suitable the only thing I know is what is in the public domain via the LAA at the moment and I have no doubt the next step will be a technical leaflet providing the necessary guidance in accordance with the ANO as and when the LAA finalise the work with the CAA.

Alan

G-OBJT

Sent from my iPad

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 6 Sep 2014, at 10:31, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info> wrote:

 Hi Alan

 Did you notice in the 800 plus pages if you still need an ADF to fly a GPS approach?  It certainly was the case at Staverton that you could fly down to limits with a GPS but needed to use the ADF to go round the hold at 3,000 feet.

 Pete

> On 06/09/14 10:06, Alan Carter wrote:

> 

> 

> Good point Peter.

> I think if you have certified aeroplanes with certified instruments and avionic  flying along with permit aircraft on airways without certified equipment would make some people very unhappy, especially  having spend 10s of thousands of pounds on there equipment, my guess it will on similar lines to what the IMC rating allows you to do which is quite reasonable, for the average light aircraft pilot .

> In my chats with the CAA apparently you can do the whole coarse under the hood without ever entering or experiencing real cloud.

> 

> Alan

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430095#430095

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:00 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Wrt  dynon, please keep in mind that their attitude "gyro" algorithm requires valid airdata (and gps fallback) to prevent drift/tumbling. Every year at oshkosh I ask if they have resolved their "edge case calculations" to remove the airdata requirement, and the principles of the co. squirm, go into a long round-about explanation and finally embarrassingly admit that they have not. I am truly surprised, as the only situation when I might rely on the attitude indication is when I might be in potential icing conditions....  Give one a test and gently blow into the pitot and watch it tumble merrily (as the company's principle demonstrated to me 5 years ago).

Grand Rapids proudly explain that their EFIS attitude algorithms do not require any external data (do they likely use their magnetometer?) which therefore may be more suitable for inadvertent ifr flight.  They claim that you can keep their units in a constant std rate turn (with no airdata or gps) with no drift tendency (as demonstrated in their helicopter camera aiming application) ...... impressive if true.

Just figured I'd throw that out there,

Cheers,

Pete

A239

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Sep 6, 2014, at 4:40 AM, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info> wrote:

 Hi

 Anybody know what we are hoping to get out of this.  Will you be able to fly a Europa IFR in Class A as per a fully certified aeroplane?

 Pete

> On 06/09/14 06:57, spcialeffects wrote:

> 

> 

> Hi Brian. Well I for one can't wait for your technical letter out lining what is acceptable or required as I am putting off buying my panel at the moment so that I can build a fully accepted IFR fit panel. I am buying dynon throught out as I consider it value for money.

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430091#430091

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:04 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

We are so lucky here in Canada and the US, where we can indeed (to the chagrin of the cert'd owners?).



Cheers,

Pete Z.

a239



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Sep 6, 2014, at 5:06 AM, "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Good point Peter.

 I think if you have certified aeroplanes with certified instruments and avionic  flying along with permit aircraft on airways without certified equipment would make some people very unhappy, especially  having spend 10s of thousands of pounds on there equipment, my guess it will on similar lines to what the IMC rating allows you to do which is quite reasonable, for the average light aircraft pilot .

 In my chats with the CAA apparently you can do the whole coarse under the hood without ever entering or experiencing real cloud.

 

 Alan

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430095#430095

stranfaer(at)btinternet.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:13 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

I believe that its an LAA requirement that if you have a glass cockpit you have to have a secondary altimeter?

the other one

Sent to you by David Joyce

www.eastmidsspas.com  

PLEASE NOTE WE HAVE MOVED AND ARE NOW AT

The Zycomm Building 51 Nottingham Road Ripley Derbys DE5  3AS

160 Meters from Sainsbury's Island

Same Phone 0800 4102122 and Direct Mobile 07973 675755

   From: Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>

 To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com" <europa-list(at)matronics.com> 

 Sent: Saturday, 6 September 2014, 13:00

 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

--> Europa-List message posted by: Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)>

Wrt  dynon, please keep in mind that their attitude "gyro" algorithm requires valid airdata (and gps fallback) to prevent drift/tumbling. Every year at oshkosh I ask if they have resolved their "edge case calculations" to remove the airdata requirement, and the principles of the co. squirm, go into a long round-about explanation and finally embarrassingly admit that they have not. I am truly surprised, as the only situation when I might rely on the attitude indication is when I might be in potential icing conditions....  Give one a test and gently  blow into the pitot and watch it tumble merrily (as the company's principle demonstrated to me 5 years ago).

Grand Rapids proudly explain that their EFIS attitude algorithms do not require any external data (do they likely use their magnetometer?) which therefore may be more suitable for inadvertent ifr flight.  They claim that you can keep their units in a constant std rate turn (with no airdata or gps) with no drift tendency (as demonstrated in their helicopter camera aiming application) ...... impressive if true.

Just figured I'd throw that out there,

Cheers,

Pete

A239

[quote] On Sep 6, 2014, at 4:40 AM, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info (pete(at)lawless.info)> wrote:

 --> Europa-List message posted by: Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info (pete(at)lawless.info)>

 Hi

 Anybody know what we are hoping to get out of this.  Will you be able to fly a Europa IFR in Class A as per a fully certified aeroplane?

 Pete

> On 06/09/14 06:57, spcialeffects wrote:

> --> Europa-List message posted by: "spcialeffects" <spcialeffects(at)aol.com (spcialeffects(at)aol.com)>

> 

> Hi Brian. Well I for one can't wait for your technical letter out lining what is acceptable or required as I am putting off buying my panel at the moment so that I can build a fully accepted IFR fit panel. I am buying dynon throught out as I consider it value for money.

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430091#430//www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http://www.mat=   -->  [quote][b]

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:20 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Hi Alan

I would therefore interpret this to mean that if you have not got NDB 

then you can't fly a GPS approach as your have no fall back.

This link is to he current Staverton GPS chart.  It states that missed 

approach procedure is only available with the NDB.

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/pamslight/pdf/4e415453/EG/C/EN/Charts/AD/EG_AD_2_EGBJ_8-2_en

Glad to hear the NDB has gone for airways  I sold my twin four years ago 

and when we rebuilt the panel in 2001 you still needed a fan marker 

receiver and display!

Personally for any serious IFR work I want 2 or more of everything - and 

that includes engines.

Regards

Pete

On 06/09/14 12:40, Dpy01 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Peter,

 In my experience the missed approach procedure is set up as a means of 'escape' as a result of the Hazard Analysis on the approach as well as a means to 'going around' should minimums not be met.

 If the primary approach system, ground or aircraft equipment, fails then the missed approach procedure would be a secondary means of addressing that failure.

 In other words on an ILS approach if the ILS fails then the missed approach would be either of NDB or VOR.

 I could go on all day on explaining but it is essentially that premise which often means that you will see a GPS approach with an alternate NDB or VOR missed approach procedure.

 I've not seen a missed approach on a GPS, or radar, yet but I would expect one at some time but I think that it would be secondary to another primary approach.

 The current equipment list for CAT flights does not require an NDB for Airways in the UK, this was dropped a few years ago, however they are required to carry equipment required to undertake the published missed approach procedure.

 As I've always flown aircraft fitted with all the requirements, including NDB, I've never looked at the regulations closer. With the prospect of a Europa possible being suitable the only thing I know is what is in the public domain via the LAA at the moment and I have no doubt the next step will be a technical leaflet providing the necessary guidance in accordance with the ANO as and when the LAA finalise the work with the CAA.

 Alan

 G-OBJT

 Sent from my iPad

> On 6 Sep 2014, at 10:31, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info> wrote:

>

> 

>

> Hi Alan

>

> Did you notice in the 800 plus pages if you still need an ADF to fly a GPS approach?  It certainly was the case at Staverton that you could fly down to limits with a GPS but needed to use the ADF to go round the hold at 3,000 feet.

>

> Pete

>

>> On 06/09/14 10:06, Alan Carter wrote:

>> 

>>

>> Good point Peter.

>> I think if you have certified aeroplanes with certified instruments and avionic  flying along with permit aircraft on airways without certified equipment would make some people very unhappy, especially  having spend 10s of thousands of pounds on there equipment, my guess it will on similar lines to what the IMC rating allows you to do which is quite reasonable, for the average light aircraft pilot .

>> In my chats with the CAA apparently you can do the whole coarse under the hood without ever entering or experiencing real cloud.

>>

>> Alan

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Read this topic online here:

>>

>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430095#430095

>

>

tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:57 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Regarding instrument flying a Europa, can those that have contemplated it tell me how you overcame the problem of heating a pitot tube, and where you mounted it? Also, I believe they are greedy for power, hugely, so does all your fancy navigation devices go dim when you tip turn it on, so you can keep it upright, but you can't any longer go anywhere anymore, with any certainty? It's all a bit problematic. Fly a Groundspeed until visual, yes, that could work, but not for sustained IMC flying. 

Regards

Tony Renshaw

Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 6 Sep 2014, at 1:01 pm, "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi Peter.

 Sorry but without going through those 869 pages again I can,t remember,

 But to comply with everything was a nightmare, ie Course, payment, Dual controls, insurance, instructor, Examiner, What is states on the back of your permit etc, about adding ratings , I gave up in the end.

 Do remember at the time only two types of GPS were approved,

 The kit you have to have is that required for the syllabus ,and I am pretty sure you have to use an ADF, but that Leeds into another question, can it be a Pseudo ADF on the GPS, as you know this will not suffer all the errors as the real ADF, like Coastal Refraction, Wing refraction, Storms, etc, etc,

 Its a real tricky subject, as I was finding with the CAA one question lead into another and my phone bill and time were being eaten away.

 Alan

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430099#430099

dg.watts(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:55 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Tony,

Pitot heat will not be part of the equation in the UK as the CAA have specified that the new IR permission for Permit Aircraft will specifically not include flight into known icing conditions, nor flight near thunderstorm activity.

Dave Watts 

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 6 Sep 2014, at 14:56, Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 Regarding instrument flying a Europa, can those that have contemplated it tell me how you overcame the problem of heating a pitot tube, and where you mounted it? Also, I believe they are greedy for power, hugely, so does all your fancy navigation devices go dim when you tip turn it on, so you can keep it upright, but you can't any longer go anywhere anymore, with any certainty? It's all a bit problematic. Fly a Groundspeed until visual, yes, that could work, but not for sustained IMC flying. 

 Regards

 Tony Renshaw

 Sent from my iPad

> On 6 Sep 2014, at 1:01 pm, "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> Hi Peter.

> Sorry but without going through those 869 pages again I can,t remember,

> But to comply with everything was a nightmare, ie Course, payment, Dual controls, insurance, instructor, Examiner, What is states on the back of your permit etc, about adding ratings , I gave up in the end.

> Do remember at the time only two types of GPS were approved,

> The kit you have to have is that required for the syllabus ,and I am pretty sure you have to use an ADF, but that Leeds into another question, can it be a Pseudo ADF on the GPS, as you know this will not suffer all the errors as the real ADF, like Coastal Refraction, Wing refraction, Storms, etc, etc,

> Its a real tricky subject, as I was finding with the CAA one question lead into another and my phone bill and time were being eaten away.

> Alan

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430099#430099

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:17 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Dave



Unfortunately you can get icing when not in 'known icing conditions'. 

Known ice requirements are more about prop and airframe de-icing ability 

than pitot heat.



Pete



On 06/09/14 15:54, David Watts wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Tony,



 Pitot heat will not be part of the equation in the UK as the CAA have specified that the new IR permission for Permit Aircraft will specifically not include flight into known icing conditions, nor flight near thunderstorm activity.



 Dave Watts



> On 6 Sep 2014, at 14:56, Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com> wrote:

>

> 

>

> Regarding instrument flying a Europa, can those that have contemplated it tell me how you overcame the problem of heating a pitot tube, and where you mounted it? Also, I believe they are greedy for power, hugely, so does all your fancy navigation devices go dim when you tip turn it on, so you can keep it upright, but you can't any longer go anywhere anymore, with any certainty? It's all a bit problematic. Fly a Groundspeed until visual, yes, that could work, but not for sustained IMC flying.

> Regards

> Tony Renshaw

> Sent from my iPad

>

>> On 6 Sep 2014, at 1:01 pm, "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:

>>

>> 

>>

>> Hi Peter.

>> Sorry but without going through those 869 pages again I can,t remember,

>> But to comply with everything was a nightmare, ie Course, payment, Dual controls, insurance, instructor, Examiner, What is states on the back of your permit etc, about adding ratings , I gave up in the end.

>> Do remember at the time only two types of GPS were approved,

>> The kit you have to have is that required for the syllabus ,and I am pretty sure you have to use an ADF, but that Leeds into another question, can it be a Pseudo ADF on the GPS, as you know this will not suffer all the errors as the real ADF, like Coastal Refraction, Wing refraction, Storms, etc, etc,

>> Its a real tricky subject, as I was finding with the CAA one question lead into another and my phone bill and time were being eaten away.

>> Alan

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Read this topic online here:

>>

>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430099#430099

>

>

dg.watts(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:10 am Post subject: LAA/CAA IFR permission on europas

Pete,



I realise that of course, I was just getting at the spirit of the way it will be implemented here in that we will be pretty restricted.  I am looking at flying IR in a Europa as a get out of jail rather than let's go flying regardless of the sort of rubbish weather we might encounter.



Dave



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 6 Sep 2014, at 16:17, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info> wrote:

 

 

 

 Dave

 

 Unfortunately you can get icing when not in 'known icing conditions'. Known ice requirements are more about prop and airframe de-icing ability than pitot heat.

 

 Pete

 

 

 

> On 06/09/14 15:54, David Watts wrote:

> 

> 

> Tony,

> 

> Pitot heat will not be part of the equation in the UK as the CAA have specified that the new IR permission for Permit Aircraft will specifically not include flight into known icing conditions, nor flight near thunderstorm activity.

> 

> Dave Watts

> 

>> On 6 Sep 2014, at 14:56, Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com> wrote:

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> Regarding instrument flying a Europa, can those that have contemplated it tell me how you overcame the problem of heating a pitot tube, and where you mounted it? Also, I believe they are greedy for power, hugely, so does all your fancy navigation devices go dim when you tip turn it on, so you can keep it upright, but you can't any longer go anywhere anymore, with any certainty? It's all a bit problematic. Fly a Groundspeed until visual, yes, that could work, but not for sustained IMC flying.

>> Regards

>> Tony Renshaw

>> 

>> 

>> Sent from my iPad

>> 

>>> On 6 Sep 2014, at 1:01 pm, "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> Hi Peter.

>>> Sorry but without going through those 869 pages again I can,t remember,

>>> But to comply with everything was a nightmare, ie Course, payment, Dual controls, insurance, instructor, Examiner, What is states on the back of your permit etc, about adding ratings , I gave up in the end.

>>> Do remember at the time only two types of GPS were approved,

>>> The kit you have to have is that required for the syllabus ,and I am pretty sure you have to use an ADF, but that Leeds into another question, can it be a Pseudo ADF on the GPS, as you know this will not suffer all the errors as the real ADF, like Coastal Refraction, Wing refraction, Storms, etc, etc,

>>> Its a real tricky subject, as I was finding with the CAA one question lead into another and my phone bill and time were being eaten away.

>>> Alan

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> Read this topic online here:

>>> 

>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430099#430099

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