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richard.goode(at)russiana
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 Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:54 am Post subject: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52 |
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The 50 and 52 have extremely different spin characteristics. The 52 is much
lighter and with a much lower moment of polar inertia. The 52 is heavier,
and a much higher moment, yet with roughly the same size control surfaces.
So the 50 is generally very benign, but as I have written before, spinning
in the 52 categorically requires good instruction.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
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PaulW
Joined: 14 May 2013
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52 |
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| barryhancock wrote: | | PaulW wrote: | | Quote: |
Even more important is learning the situations that get you into one in the first place.
Happy to provide the training if I'm closer to anyone on the list (UK)
(We start at 10,000 feet, and chutes are a must!)
|
What would you say are these situations?
I am still a beginner in aero's and like to know more. |
I think your comment is exactly the point we are trying to make. Before you are a beginning aerobatic pilot, you need to be well versed in spins. Any aerobatic instructor/school worth your time will REQUIRE you to go through spin training before you attempt any aerobatics.
Self taught or "I read that in a book" approaches are foolhardy unless you have first mastered all spin recoveries.
|
I very much agree with that.
In my case I did a basic aero course on a C152 which included spins at a school and then bought the 52 and did some aero training from someone who is very experienced on 52's and currently Advanced in competition level. He will be participating in the YAKWAC now in November.
My current instructor is an ex jet fighter with actual combat experience, flew in air force Silver Falcons display team and was a jet instructor in the Air Force. Currently a Designated Flight Examiner who in fact test instructors. He also had his own Yak....
So in good company there. But I am still learning....
So we did our fair share of spin recoveries.
The recovery I learned is :
SHORT VERSION RECOVERY NORMAL SPIN
1. Flaps Retract
2. Slow down, power full back
3. Stick back, wings level
4. When stall (MUST Stall), stick FULL back, Right Rudder
5. Look at Object on ground
6. 30deg before you want to stop, Left (Opposite rudder) stick to neutral
7. When stopped, neutralize Rudders, stick brisk little forward.
8. speed 170km, Pull slow out of dive
Question: can the techniques used by Bill Fenian also be used in the YAK-52?
I haven't done inverted nor flat spins yet.
How do these recoveries differ from normal upright spins in a 52?
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f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:13 pm Post subject: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52 |
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Hi Barry and all,
Yup, I used to do much of the check outs and spin training out here on the west coast . I enjoyed doing that and did it gratis. Didn’t do just the “upright spin training” though….as a matter of fact, I clearly remember your coming down to KCRQ from Chino in your Yak 50 and we spent the afternoon talking about inverted spins (thus your comment about flow from across the bottom of the outside wing going up thru the aileron gap creating pressure, etc. etc.) and then going out in my 52 and putting you through inverted spins. That kind of thing was always fun.
Yer rite, I don’t fly much anymore….but, for people who already have their own 52, I know someone out west here who does excellent acro and spin training…but only in the client’s airplane. Give me a call if you fit that profile and I’ll refer you.
Best regards,
On Nov 17, 2014, at 1:12 PM, barryhancock <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com> wrote:
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barryhancock
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52 |
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Thanks, Roger. I don't remember the inverted stuff with you, but then again, I'm not as young as I used to be. 
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Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
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barryhancock
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:34 pm Post subject: Re: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52 |
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| PaulW wrote: | | barryhancock wrote: | | PaulW wrote: | | Quote: |
Even more important is learning the situations that get you into one in the first place.
Happy to provide the training if I'm closer to anyone on the list (UK)
(We start at 10,000 feet, and chutes are a must!)
|
What would you say are these situations?
I am still a beginner in aero's and like to know more. |
I think your comment is exactly the point we are trying to make. Before you are a beginning aerobatic pilot, you need to be well versed in spins. Any aerobatic instructor/school worth your time will REQUIRE you to go through spin training before you attempt any aerobatics.
Self taught or "I read that in a book" approaches are foolhardy unless you have first mastered all spin recoveries.
|
I very much agree with that.
In my case I did a basic aero course on a C152 which included spins at a school and then bought the 52 and did some aero training from someone who is very experienced on 52's and currently Advanced in competition level. He will be participating in the YAKWAC now in November.
My current instructor is an ex jet fighter with actual combat experience, flew in air force Silver Falcons display team and was a jet instructor in the Air Force. Currently a Designated Flight Examiner who in fact test instructors. He also had his own Yak....
So in good company there. But I am still learning....
So we did our fair share of spin recoveries.
The recovery I learned is :
SHORT VERSION RECOVERY NORMAL SPIN
1. Flaps Retract
2. Slow down, power full back
3. Stick back, wings level
4. When stall (MUST Stall), stick FULL back, Right Rudder
5. Look at Object on ground
6. 30deg before you want to stop, Left (Opposite rudder) stick to neutral
7. When stopped, neutralize Rudders, stick brisk little forward.
8. speed 170km, Pull slow out of dive
Question: can the techniques used by Bill Fenian also be used in the YAK-52?
I haven't done inverted nor flat spins yet.
How do these recoveries differ from normal upright spins in a 52? |
Hi Paul,
Few comments here:
First, we have seen too many "high time military pilots" kill themselves and others in Yaks, L-29s/39s, etc. because they assume way too much and know way too little about these planes and their performance characteristics. I refer you to the original post in this thread where Richard Goode points out one of the best aerobatic pilots in the world killed himself and his student in a -52...because he assumed way too much and knew way too little. Then there was the AF General and passenger who were killed in a Yak-54. Then there was...I could go on and on but it makes me sick to think about it any more.
Military pilots are awesome (thanks for your service, fellas). Many are very good aviators, and I have many good friends in this community and out who are ex-fighter jocks. I'd fly with most all of them. I wouldn't get spin instruction from any of them unless they had type specific training on all spin modes and LOTS of instructional experience on all modes (like Roger). This is not a slam on them. The simple point is military experience has ZERO to do with....ZERO....to do with competency in spinning a Yak-52 in anything accelerated or flat. Be VERY weary of a guy who flaunts his military creds as a reason to let him teach you spins in a -52.
The ONLY question that has ANY relevance is, "how much time do you have instructing inverted flat spins in a Yak-52?" If the answer isn't buckets of hours...RUN.
Also, your normal upright spin recovery technique seems waaay to complicated and limited to me. First, what about spins to the left? Second, having a ground reference is nice IF you are doing a competition spin and IF it is a secondary reference to looking over the nose. Fixating on a point on the ground is a good way to meet said point face to face. The point should be identified before you begin the spin and it's only referenced with peripheral vision as you look over the nose, but I digress. Third, why "pull slow" out of a dive? You don't want a secondary stall/spin, obviously, but you also need to minimize altitude loss. I don't mean to be harsh here, but from what you've written it seems to me you need more training to be safe spinning the -52.
As to wether or not Finigan's technique will work with the Yak-52, I'll ask him. He told me he's tried it in dozens of aircraft with similar results...but there are always exceptions, so I wouldn't count on it as a 'go to' unless and until it is demonstrated to work reliably in all situations.
Inverted, accelerated, and flat spins are all different and, like any other maneuver, should NOT be..... attempted without first receiving dual instruction from a well qualified instructor.
Fly safe, fly smart!
Barry
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Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
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PaulW
Joined: 14 May 2013
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:12 am Post subject: Re: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52 |
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| barryhancock wrote: |
Hi Paul,
Few comments here:
Also, your normal upright spin recovery technique seems waaay to complicated and limited to me. First, what about spins to the left? Second, having a ground reference is nice IF you are doing a competition spin and IF it is a secondary reference to looking over the nose. Fixating on a point on the ground is a good way to meet said point face to face. The point should be identified before you begin the spin and it's only referenced with peripheral vision as you look over the nose, but I digress. Third, why "pull slow" out of a dive? You don't want a secondary stall/spin, obviously, but you also need to minimize altitude loss. I don't mean to be harsh here, but from what you've written it seems to me you need more training to be safe spinning the -52.
.
.
As to wether or not Finigan's technique will work with the Yak-52, I'll ask him. He told me he's tried it in dozens of aircraft with similar results...but there are always exceptions, so I wouldn't count on it as a 'go to' unless and until it is demonstrated to work reliably in all situations.
.
.
.
Inverted, accelerated, and flat spins are all different and, like any other maneuver, should NOT be..... attempted without first receiving dual instruction from a well qualified instructor.
Barry |
Hi
Point taken. just on current instructor, he also flew T-6's in competition, etc, owned a'52, etc.
But I do get your point and will certainly keep it in mind.
As far as my notes are concerned on the spin....yes, it is based on competition spins where you need to stop on heading and the notes was just my own with right as an example but of course left will just be the opposite inputs. Better would have been to just say opposite rudder, etc.
Pull back slowly out of dive was more a note to myself as I had the tendency to pull to hard and then plane wanted to stall and go into an opposite secondary spin.
I don't understand why you say it is complicated as that is basically what the 52 POH says and as well what I learned first hand. Including pull out smoothly where I mention slowly.
The only difference is that I have the one extra step when you stop the spin, you neutralise rudders and push the stick briskly forward and back. I understand that is to unload the wings?
What do you suggest/recommend would be the correct/better procedure?
Another yes, I am still a beginner and not attempting any aero's on my own yet. I think I have about 25 hours on the YAK of which maybe 15 or so Aero's (including Spins) plus 6 hours aero's on a C152.
So still a lot to learn which I do realise.
I won't be doing aero's on my own till cleared by an instructor that I will be save out there.
But please share procedures for recoveries for normal upright, inverted, flat, etc and I can discuss with my instructor or other instructors. I promise not to go and attempt it on my own....
Apprently Finigan's technique won't work well on planes with CoG behind Pilot. I think the CoG of a 52 is behind the pilot from what I can work out on my Weight and Balance sheet and other docs?
Is that the case?
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bwade154(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:46 pm Post subject: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52 |
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Paul what Barry is trying to convey to you is the Yak 52 has a very different from conventional aircraft's UPRIGHT FLAT SPIN recovery and although we can tell you where the controls need to be for that recovery it definitely needs to be experienced with by someone that has flat spun a Yak 52 not a Cessna not a Beech not a Piper not even a Jet a Yak 52 only. I've been trying to perfect my acro maneuvers for about 14 years now and I've yet to have the yak do anything unpredictable i.e. gone flat unintentionally actually the only time my airplane has flat spun is during my training and I got my spin training from Nicolai Timofeev it was pricey but what's your life worth?
I know of at least three airplanes that have spun to the ground with no survivors. Study accident reports you will also find that many have perished from low level acro. Study why aircraft spin, what power does to a spinning aircraft what attitude has to do with entering a spin. My Yak has enabled me to learn things most pilots never experience. Continue to learn Paul and don' FU*K UP and kill yourself it makes the rest of the Yak CJ family look bad
Living the dream Bill Wade Yak 52 N4450Y
From: PaulW <paul(at)budcyber.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 4:12 AM
Subject: Re: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52
--> Yak-List message posted by: "PaulW" <paul(at)budcyber.com (paul(at)budcyber.com)>
barryhancock wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi Paul,
Few comments here:
Also, your normal upright spin recovery technique seems waaay to complicated and limited to me. First, what about spins to the left? Second, having a ground reference is nice IF you are doing a competition spin and IF it is a secondary reference to looking over the nose. Fixating on a point on the ground is a good way to meet said point face to face. The point should be identified before you begin the spin and it's only referenced with peripheral vision as you look over the nose, but I digress. Third, why "pull slow" out of a dive? You don't want a secondary stall/spin, obviously, but you also need to minimize altitude loss. I don't mean to be harsh here, but from what you've written it seems to me you need more training to be safe spinning the -52.
.
.
As to wether or not Finigan's technique will work with the Yak-52, I'll ask him. He told me he's tried it in dozens of aircraft with similar results...but there are always exceptions, so I wouldn't count on it as a 'go to' unless and until it is demonstrated to work reliably in all situations.
.
.
.
Inverted, accelerated, and flat spins are all different and, like any other maneuver, should NOT be..... attempted without first receiving dual instruction from a well qualified instructor.
Barry
|
Hi
Point taken. just on current instructor, he also flew T-6's in competition, etc, owned a'52, etc.
But I do get your point and will certainly keep it in mind.
As far as my notes are concerned on the spin....yes, it is based on competition spins where you need to stop on heading and the notes was just my own with right as an example but of course left will just be the opposite inputs. Better would have been to just say opposite rudder, etc.
Pull back slowly out of dive was more a note to myself as I had the tendency to pull to hard and then plane wanted to stall and go into an opposite secondary spin.
I don't understand why you say it is complicated as that is basically what the 52 POH says as well what I learned first hand. Including pull out smoothly where I mention slowly.
The only difference is that I have the one extra step when you stop the spin, you neutralise rudders and push the stick briskly forward and back. I understand that is to unload the wings?
What do you suggest would be the correct procedure?
Another yes, I am still a beginner and not attempting any aero's on my own yet. I think I have about 25 hours on the YAK of which maybe 15 or so Aero's (including Spins) plus 6 hours aero's on a C152.
So still a lot to learn.
I won't be doing aero's on my own till cleared by an instructor that I will be save out there.
But please share procedures for recoveries for normal upright, inverted, flat, etc and I can discuss with my instructor or other instructors. I promise not to go and attempt it on my own....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewt> htsp; -Yak-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Lista href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.mat====================
[quote][b]
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nigel(at)yakdisplay.com
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:10 pm Post subject: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52 |
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"Discuss" with instructors...?
Strongly suggest you go and DO it with a Yak52 instructor.
All 52's have slightly different characteristics and those characteristics change with MAUW and CofG position, and the rigging of individual aircraft.
Personally, for my own 52, I (originally) received a lot of spin recovery instruction using a variety of recovery techniques to see what worked, what didn't and what resulted in the minimum height loss.
Too many to go into here on email, apart from re-iterating there is no substitute for getting the training on your OWN aircraft, first hand....
Hope that helps..
Regards,
Nigel Willson
Flying Instructor/Examiner and Display Pilot (Yak52, over 800 hours on type)
_________________________________________________
email: nigel(at)yakdisplay.com
mobile: (+44) 7809 116676
web: http://yakdisplay.com
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:18 pm Post subject: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52 |
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Well written.
That said, I own a 50 and it spins and recovers nicely.
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] on behalf of bill wade [bwade154(at)yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 11:41 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52
Paul what Barry is trying to convey to you is the Yak 52 has a very different from conventional aircraft's UPRIGHT FLAT SPIN recovery and although we can tell you where the controls need to be for that recovery it definitely needs to be experienced with by someone that has flat spun a Yak 52 not a Cessna not a Beech not a Piper not even a Jet a Yak 52 only. I've been trying to perfect my acro maneuvers for about 14 years now and I've yet to have the yak do anything unpredictable i.e. gone flat unintentionally actually the only time my airplane has flat spun is during my training and I got my spin training from Nicolai Timofeev it was pricey but what's your life worth?
I know of at least three airplanes that have spun to the ground with no survivors. Study accident reports you will also find that many have perished from low level acro. Study why aircraft spin, what power does to a spinning aircraft what attitude has to do with entering a spin. My Yak has enabled me to learn things most pilots never experience. Continue to learn Paul and don' FU*K UP and kill yourself it makes the rest of the Yak CJ family look bad
Living the dream Bill Wade Yak 52 N4450Y
________________________________
From: PaulW <paul(at)budcyber.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 4:12 AM
Subject: Re: Spins, particularly in a Yak-52
barryhancock wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi Paul,
Few comments here:
Also, your normal upright spin recovery technique seems waaay to complicated and limited to me. First, what about spins to the left? Second, having a ground reference is nice IF you are doing a competition spin and IF it is a secondary reference to looking over the nose. Fixating on a point on the ground is a good way to meet said point face to face. The point should be identified before you begin the spin and it's only referenced with peripheral vision as you look over the nose, but I digress. Third, why "pull slow" out of a dive? You don't want a secondary stall/spin, obviously, but you also need to minimize altitude loss. I don't mean to be harsh here, but from what you've written it seems to me you need more training to be safe spinning the -52.
.
.
As to wether or not Finigan's technique will work with the Yak-52, I'll ask him. He told me he's tried it in dozens of aircraft with similar results...but there are always exceptions, so I wouldn't count on it as a 'go to' unless and until it is demonstrated to work reliably in all situations.
.
.
.
Inverted, accelerated, and flat spins are all different and, like any other maneuver, should NOT be..... attempted without first receiving dual instruction from a well qualified instructor.
Barry
|
Hi
Point taken. just on current instructor, he also flew T-6's in competition, etc, owned a'52, etc.
But I do get your point and will certainly keep it in mind.
As far as my notes are concerned on the spin....yes, it is based on competition spins where you need to stop on heading and the notes was just my own with right as an example but of course left will just be the opposite inputs. Better would have been to just say opposite rudder, etc.
Pull back slowly out of dive was more a note to myself as I had the tendency to pull to hard and then plane wanted to stall and go into an opposite secondary spin.
I don't understand why you say it is complicated as that is basically what the 52 POH says as well what I learned first hand. Including pull out smoothly where I mention slowly.
The only difference is that I have the one extra step when you stop the spin, you neutralise rudders and push the stick briskly forward and back. I understand that is to unload the wings?
What do you suggest would be the correct procedure?
Another yes, I am still a beginner and not attempting any aero's on my own yet. I think I have about 25 hours on the YAK of which maybe 15 or so Aero's (including Spins) plus 6 hours aero's on a C152.
So still a lot to learn.
I won't be doing aero's on my own till cleared by an instructor that I will be save out there.
But please share procedures for recoveries for normal upright, inverted, flat, etc and I can discuss with my instructor or other instructors. I promise not to go and attempt it on my own....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewt> <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=434101#434101> htsp; -Yak-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>a href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.mat====================
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