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Alternator field circuit breaker

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phudes(at)ix.netcom.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:54 am Post subject: Alternator field circuit breaker

I am replacing the Nippon/Denso alternator in my RV9 with one from Plane Power. I did not build the RV.

The field CB is rated at 10 amps. Plane Power calls for a 5 amp one. Any issue with using the existing 10 amp CB?



Pete Hudes

fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:09 pm Post subject: Alternator field circuit breaker

Does the alternator have an internal regulator?  Does it include a crowbar

over voltage circuit?  What size wire is running from the circuit breaker to

the alternator?  I would think you will want to follow the install guide

closely.  



Bevan



--

phudes(at)ix.netcom.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:23 pm Post subject: Alternator field circuit breaker

Yes to both.



Pete

On Apr 11, 2015, at 1:07 PM, B Tomm wrote:



[quote] 

 

 Does the alternator have an internal regulator?  Does it include a crowbar

 over voltage circuit?  What size wire is running from the circuit breaker to

 the alternator?  I would think you will want to follow the install guide

 closely.  

 

 Bevan

 

 --

kjashton(at)vnet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:31 pm Post subject: Alternator field circuit breaker

Plane power depends on popping the 5A CB to provide the overvoltage protection.  I would think using a larger CB will require more amps which might overheat your field wiring before popping a 10A breaker.  Just a guess.

http://plane-power.com/pdf/internally%20regulated%20experimental%20alternator%20information.pdf

-kent

[quote] On Apr 11, 2015, at 4:22 PM, Pete <phudes(at)ix.netcom.com> wrote:

 Yes to both.

 Pete

> On Apr 11, 2015, at 1:07 PM, B Tomm wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> Does the alternator have an internal regulator?  Does it include a crowbar

> over voltage circuit?  What size wire is running from the circuit breaker to

> the alternator?  I would think you will want to follow the install guide

> closely.  

> 

> Bevan

> 

> --

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1938
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator field circuit breaker

The crowbar over-voltage circuit could be damaged by excessive current allowed by a 10 amp breaker.  Use a 5 amp breaker.

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:30 pm Post subject: Alternator field circuit breaker

My chief engineer always reminds me that the CB is protect the wire not the

item the wire leads to.  If Plan Power says 5 amps, then I would change to 5

amps and double check the wire to make sure it is adequate to handle 5 amps.



Rene'

801-721-6080

--

phudes(at)ix.netcom.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:16 pm Post subject: Alternator field circuit breaker

Thanks everyone. 5 amp CB ordered.



Pete Hudes

On Apr 12, 2015, at 1:21 PM, Rene wrote:



[quote] 

 

 My chief engineer always reminds me that the CB is protect the wire not the

 item the wire leads to.  If Plan Power says 5 amps, then I would change to 5

 amps and double check the wire to make sure it is adequate to handle 5 amps.

 

 Rene'

 801-721-6080

 

 

 --

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:24 am Post subject: Alternator field circuit breaker

At 15:21 2015-04-12, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com>



 My chief engineer always reminds me that the CB is protect the wire not the

 item the wire leads to.  If Plan Power says 5 amps, then I would change to 5

 amps and double check the wire to make sure it is adequate to handle 5 amps. 	


    If you're replacing a 10A breaker, then it's

    a pretty sure bet that the downstream wires are

    good for 5A too. But this is a special case

    where the breaker is indeed sized to integrate

    gracefully with a downstream item . . . the

    crowbar module.



    Further, not just ANY 5a breaker. During the

    operation of a crowbar ov protection device,

    fault currents may be as high as 200A . . .

    for a few tens of milliseconds.



    The ENERGY dumped in this even is low but

    the current can be substantial.



    While the legacy, pullable mil-style breaker

 [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20150412195958.0038fac8(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img] 



 

   . . . will grunt the ov trip thousands of times without

   breathing hard, some 5A breakers won't make it to first

   base . . .



 

 [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20150412195958.0038fac8(at)aeroelectric.com.1[/img] 



   This little feller burned in two on the first trip . . .



 

 

   Bob . . .

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:29 am Post subject: Alternator field circuit breaker

Wrote this one yesterday but it failed to post.

 As a sub-note to the thread, I'll offer the following:



 

 At 15:21 2015-04-12, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com>



 My chief engineer always reminds me that the CB is protect the wire not the

 item the wire leads to.  If Plan Power says 5 amps, then I would change to 5

 amps and double check the wire to make sure it is adequate to handle 5 amps. 	


    If you're replacing a 10A breaker, then it's

    a pretty sure bet that the downstream wires are

    good for 5A too. But this is a special case

    where the breaker is indeed sized to integrate

    gracefully with a downstream item . . . the

    crowbar module.



    Further, not just ANY 5a breaker. During the

    operation of a crowbar ov protection device,

    fault currents may be as high as 200A . . .

    for a few tens of milliseconds.



    The ENERGY dumped in this even is low but

    the current can be substantial.



    While the legacy, pullable mil-style breaker

 [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20150413082505.03f18ff0(at)aeroelectric.com.2[/img] 



 

   . . . will grunt the ov trip thousands of times without

   breathing hard, some 5A breakers won't make it to first

   base . . .



 

 [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20150413082505.03f18ff0(at)aeroelectric.com.3[/img] 



   This little feller burned in two on the first ov trip . . .



   Future versions of the crowbar ov module will include a

   press to test function. It's not something that should

   be exercised every pre-flight (although it wouldn't hurt)

   but it will negate the need for yearly calibration testing

   and will serve to prove adequacy of the installed breaker.



 

 

   Bob . . .

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kenryan

Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 429

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:52 am Post subject: Alternator field circuit breaker

I already own a couple of 4 amp Klixon push-pulls (like the one in the picture). Will 4 amp work instead of five? Also, when do you anticipate the new OVP to be available for purchase?



On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 5:08 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    At 15:21 2015-04-12, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com (rene(at)felker.com)>



 My chief engineer always reminds me that the CB is protect the wire not the

 item the wire leads to.  If Plan Power says 5 amps, then I would change to 5

 amps and double check the wire to make sure it is adequate to handle 5 amps. 	


    If you're replacing a 10A breaker, then it's

    a pretty sure bet that the downstream wires are

    good for 5A too. But this is a special case

    where the breaker is indeed sized to integrate

    gracefully with a downstream item . . . the

    crowbar module.



    Further, not just ANY 5a breaker. During the

    operation of a crowbar ov protection device,

    fault currents may be as high as 200A . . .

    for a few tens of milliseconds.



    The ENERGY dumped in this even is low but

    the current can be substantial.



    While the legacy, pullable mil-style breaker

 [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20150412195958.0038fac8(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img] 



 

   . . . will grunt the ov trip thousands of times without

   breathing hard, some 5A breakers won't make it to first

   base . . .



 

 [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20150412195958.0038fac8(at)aeroelectric.com.1[/img] 



   This little feller burned in two on the first trip . . .



 

 

   Bob . . .

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user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1938
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Alternator field circuit breaker

 	  Quote: 	
		    This little feller burned in two on the first trip . . . 	


I bought a new circuit breaker, 693-T11-211-3, and tried it on the bench before installing it.  The breaker would not trip in the O.V. circuit.  So I connected the breaker directly to a 12 volt battery to test it.  Instead of tripping, the breaker literally smoked.

_________________
Joe Gores

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1938
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:22 am Post subject: Re: Alternator field circuit breaker

 	  Quote: 	
		  Will 4 amp work instead of five? 	


Probably, but it depends on the maximum current requirements of the alternator field.  Do you know what it is?  The field will need more current when recharging an almost dead battery.

_________________
Joe Gores

jluckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:38 am Post subject: Alternator field circuit breaker

Listers,



I've noticed that several postings about Alternator Field circuit breakers have shown "push-to-reset" or "non-pullable" circuit breakers.

I think that "pullable" breakers like the Klixon that BobN referenced or the venerable Potter Brumfield, now Tyco W23 breakers are a better choice because they allow you to shut-down the alternator at will.  This can be handy for testing or in the case of a malfunctioning over-voltage module.  It is definitely worth the extra $15 for this level of flexibility & safety.





-Jeff



  



     On Monday, April 13, 2015 8:22 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com> wrote:

  

  



 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

 	  Quote: 	
		     This little feller burned in two on the first trip . . . 


	


I bought a new circuit breaker, 693-T11-211-3, and tried it on the bench before installing it.  The breaker would not trip in the O.V. circuit.  So I connected the breaker directly to a 12 volt battery to test it.  Instead of tripping, the breaker literally smoked.



--------

Joe Gores





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p//www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" target="_blank">http://w                -Matt Dralle, List =========

  

 

  



 [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:56 am Post subject: Alternator field circuit breaker

At 09:49 2015-04-13, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I already own a couple of 4 amp Klixon push-pulls (like the one in 

the picture). Will 4 amp work instead of five? Also, when do you 

anticipate the new OVP to be available for purchase?


	


   Yes, the 4A will work for MOST if not all automotive

   wound field alternators with CBOVP.  With PM alternators,

   the circuit breaker carries only control current for

   a relay . . . hence . . . the breaker can be smaller

   but not necessary. As a general rule, 5A breakers cost

   less than the smaller sizes so 5A was selected as the

   'universal' candidate for alternator control with

   CBOVP.



   The design, software are done . . . parts in hand.

   I've got a project in the skunkwerks world of TC aircraft

   that needs a fast turn around . . . OBAM play projects are

   on temporary hold . . . but not long. That's the nice thing about

   fast-turn requests. It couldn't drag out if we wanted it

   to! Now, if we could just run TCGA certs with the same

   sense of urgency . . .



   Bob . . .

kenryan

Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 429

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:26 am Post subject: Alternator field circuit breaker

Unfortunately I do not know the maximum current requirements for the alternator fields. It is a Rotax with the built in generator and auxiliary 40 amp alternator.



On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 7:22 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

 

 

 > Will 4 amp work instead of five?

 

 Probably, but it depends on the maximum current requirements of the alternator field.  Do you know what it is?  The field will need more current when recharging an almost dead battery.

 

 --------

 Joe Gores

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440778#440778

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

  -

 Electric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

 ===========

  FORUMS -

 _blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 



[b]

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1938
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:48 am Post subject: Re: Alternator field circuit breaker

The Rotax internal alternator does not have a field. So yes, a 4 amp circuit breaker will work for the crowbar O.V. wired with a relay per Bob's Z-17.

http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z17K.pdf

And the 40 amp alternator is relatively small, so a 4 amp breaker will be adequate for its field circuit too.

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

kenryan

Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 429

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:50 am Post subject: Alternator field circuit breaker

Thanks guys.



On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 8:48 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

 

 The Rotax internal alternator does not have a field. So yes, a 4 amp circuit breaker will work for the crowbar O.V. wired with a relay per Bob's Z-17.

 And the 40 amp alternator is relatively small, so a 4 amp breaker will be adequate for its field circuit too.

 Joe

 

 --------

 Joe Gores

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440788#440788

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

  -

 Electric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

 ===========

  FORUMS -

 _blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:03 pm Post subject: Alternator field circuit breaker

At 12:49 2015-04-13, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Thanks guys.



 

 On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 8:48 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

   --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>



  The Rotax internal alternator does not have a field. So yes, a 4 amp circuit breaker will work for the crowbar O.V. wired with a relay per Bob's Z-17.

  And the 40 amp alternator is relatively small, so a 4 amp breaker will be adequate for its field circuit too. 	
 

    An interesting data point . . . the current draw of

    the field in an engine driven power source is NOT

    tightly associated with the machine's output rating.



    The field intensity needed to produce full output

    is a function of amps times turns in the field winding.

    As it turns out, you can get ANY intensity at ANY

    current if you have no restraints on volume allotted

    to the field winding.



    I've built regulators for 600A starter generators

    that draw no more current than the 100A alternator.

    Generally speaking, 10A is a BIG field current draw

    for any machine . . . and a 60A machine on the

    front of a Lycoming can produce 20A of output at

    1 amp or so of field current.



    This is why the regulators found in the full family

    of aviation products are all about the same size.

    



 

 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

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