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kdb.rv10(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:50 pm Post subject: Dual battery isolation |
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Each person has their choice of justification. I have two batteries because I don't want brownout to occur and I want a backup starting battery. I have needed the extra starting battery at times and brownout does occur when the EFIS is running off of the start battery. It takes a while for everything to boot when that occurs. I'm not going to take off while the system is booting and in the summer it can get hot while waiting on everything. Two pc680 weigh about the same as one Concord, so no bad effects there. Everything works well and it's what I want. Each person has to decide what works for them .....
Kevin Belue
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 14, 2015, at 11:45 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
IMHO, brownout is one of the lowest priority justifications.
If you expect to fly lots of IFR in areas where widespread IFR is common, that might be a reason.
With a glass panel, you only need one panel on for engine start, to monitor oil pressure, etc.
Most glass panels today are designed to tolerate down to 8 or 9 volts, so brownout is unlikely.
With a glass panel you either want mechanical gyro backup or at least a backup battery for the glass panel, by itself. Navigating and communicating can be done with portable backups. Keeping upright is better done with keeping the EFIS alive than depending on a portable tablet, etc.
Or a couple companies offer mini-EFIS that will run for 3-4 hours on batteries, in case you lose all your electrics. I am very comfortable with my choices of single electrical system, single battery, with backup battery on each of the two EFIS, with a Dynon D1 mini-EFIS for backup and tie-breaking.
On 7/14/2015 7:50 AM, Dj Merrill wrote:
>
>
> On 07/14/2015 10:15 AM, Linn Walters wrote:
>> Why do you need two batteries?
> Brownout.
>
> With a glass panel, cranking the engine causes the panel to reboot,
> which is a real PITA.
>
> You can either have independent internal batteries for every electronic
> device, or follow the KISS principal and have a single second battery on
> an essential buss to keep everything up and running.
>
> -Dj
>
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:30 pm Post subject: Dual battery isolation |
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What Tim and DJ said. Same here for many of the same reasons.
It really would be good if some would refrain from calling this need
some of us have a 'problem'. It's not. It's a need that can be readily
satisfied a number of ways - moving to AZ is not one of them for this
flyer. (Electron Master Nuckolls excepted; he can 'dis' my 'kitchen
sink' panel all day long since he has been so instrumental in enabling
said 'kitchen sink' - Thanks Again Bob!)
Running the panel, sometimes for extended periods, before engine start
is a very useful thing and something I had established the need for
long before I flew the '10. Sitting in Saratoga with snow falling
waiting for a void time clearance with multiple incoming planes. Worse
case, New Orleans the year after the flood. No terminals in the
temporary FBO structure and the usual coastal cells floating by.
Watching the cells out on the ramp waiting for the gaps to line up
before start up and departure made the case for me.
IFR practicalities - I like to get my departure clearance, translate the
airways on the iPad, then enter in the G430w - all before engine start.
Add in an interupt for a passenger wanting one more shot at the loo and
there goes the battery. Oh, for KISSes sake I don't have an avionics
master or switches for my individual GRT units so my 3 GRTs are powered
on for every start, and the G430 is powered up by choice. They will
brown out in normal ops if a single battery is used.
I did a Z-14 dual batt, dual alt, dual bus installation and love it. Two
680s provide the juice. The buses are run separately except for engine
start. There are simpler configs I guess but when I sketched it out and
found symmetry, everything became simple for me - I was sold.
So, sitting at Osh last year trying to get out when the Breezy crashed.
Airport shutdown, conga lines in all directions. I have to admit I
screwed this one up. Instead of shutting down each time move and came
to an extended shop, I kept the engine running and eventually fouled a
plug. But I could have shut down as needed with the panel humming
along, all information sources online, no need to go to backups. When
I did get out that evening after cleaning the plug, the usual cells were
dancing across the airport and I was given some priority getting out.
Having the weather displayed, flight plan input and everything up and
running was priceless - especially with a friend's 11 and 13 year old
distractors in the back.
The Z-14 is a luxury and not required unless you are building a twin -
but I'd recommend it to anyone who enjoys more bulletproofing.
Bill 'getting psyched to do more flying and less fishing' Watson
On 7/14/2015 2:08 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
| Quote: |
I feel the same as Dj.
I'm going to disconnect from the conversation because these
days I tire of the same old discussions, but, I'll give one
more senario that I like having everything stay up for.
When flying IFR, I've had a bunch of occasions where I
sat in the plane and fired up my primary screen, and
my WSI system, to get a good look at dark storm cells
adjacent to my area. I wanted to check to see what
they were doing and if I could depart and get routed
out of the airport environment without worry.
It takes a few minutes for any weather system to start
putting together the data to get a good display.
So, I have my WSI set up with a small switch to either
use the e-bus or main bus. But on days like that, I like
to have my panel humming, my flight plan entered and
everything all updated as to WX, before I launch. Sometimes
you have to phone call Clearance delivery and they have you
sit tight a bit. It's nice to be able to shut down the
engine and just sit it out, and then fire it back up without
having to re-enter and re-boot everything. Kelly is
just wrong about the EFIS's not rebooting. They can.
There are too many brands and models to make a blanket
statement like that. Mine does. And even if it didn't,
I'd rather have it keep full line voltage. So my
system does what I want it to do. There are also many
different types of starters, that may draw more or less
current. Mine seems to take quite a bit.
For many people I would suggest you check out
TCW Tech's various things like Intelligent power stabilizers
and such. They have great products that can make
all this much easier for you.
It takes a lot off your thinking-plate when worrying
about such things. At any rate as for the way the
electrical system works, I felt I wanted it,
needed it, and could do it, so I did. To each his own.
With that, I'll exit the discussion because with
9+ years of flying behind the system, I'm very happy
with it and it's not going to do me much good to
argue with anyone on it. To me it's just wasted time
that I can never get back.
Tim
On 7/14/2015 12:25 PM, Dj Merrill wrote:
>
>
> On 07/14/2015 12:45 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>> IMHO, brownout is one of the lowest priority justifications.
>
> The beauty of experimental aviation is that we each get to choose our
> own priorities. For me, brownout protection is a high priority.
>> Most glass panels today are designed to tolerate down to 8 or 9 volts,
>> so brownout is unlikely.
>
> I can confirm that my panel reboots if the secondary battery is not on,
> and several others on here have written similar reports, so I'd actually
> say it seems like brownout is very likely without having a secondary
> power source for the display. In your description you say that you have
> secondary batteries for each of your two EFIS units, which provide the
> same functionality, with a slightly higher maintenance cost but also
> slightly higher redundancy.
>
> That's two different ways to solve the same issues, and I'm sure others
> have other possible solutions as well. The important end result is one
> that each person feels comfortable with, and none of the solutions are
> any more "right" or "wrong" than another.
>
> For me, it is more than just an inconvenience. My flow is to have
> everything powered up, freqs set, checks done, flight plan entered, etc
> and then start the engine.
>
> Once the engine is started, your attention needs to be outside of the
> aircraft, not focused inside on the pretty displays. This is basic
> safety 101.
>
> -Dj
>
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
07/14/15
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rv10flyer
Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: Dual battery isolation |
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Mine draws 435 Amps and if I did not have two batteries, my GRT's would reboot(below 10 VDC).
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Wayne G. |
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