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912s vs. Jabiru 3300?
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clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:57 pm Post subject: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300?

I have flown in a 2200, 3300 and probably have the first 912ULS engine in a Model IV 1999.  Find someone who has these aircraft with these engines  and go for rides with them.  Don't listen to all the Bull thats thrown around.  I would find it difficult to find some one in a kitfox that can out perform me, except in speed.  I have the 800/6 6 ply tires and tundra tail wheel.  Likle I said, it would be cheap insurance to buy an airplane ticket to almost anywhere and fly with some one to check it out.  Again my 2 cents worth.  I have a start up and shut down procedure that is smooth as glass.  You can do some serious damage to a 912 S series engine if your not carefull.  With certified ones too.

 

 [quote]   

From:  "darinh" <gerns25(at)netscape.net>

Reply-To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject:  Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300?

Date:  Sat, 1 Jul 2006 20:40:34 -0700

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" <gerns25(at)netscape.net>

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail. wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   MY 3 cents worth now.? Again, ride in the airplane with the 3300 and then with the 912ULS.? You will get your answer in a hurry.? The 3300 is 200 cubin inches, same as a 0200.? figure it out.? ? Clint? PS don't forget your earplugs.


	




Clint,



I don't quite follow, are you saying you think it would be a good idea or not?  The Jab may be 200 cubes like the 0200 but it has 20 more horses and weighs about 25 to 30 lbs less.  I

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300?

Ok, thanks for the clarification.  I would love to fly in any Jabiru powered Kitfox but so far, I believe Michel here on the forums is the only one I know with the Jabiru and he is in Europe.  I have flown in an IO-240 powered Series 5 and it was great but not my choice due to weight...it weighed in at around 950 lbs or so.  The only engines I am considering are the 912s and the Jab 3300.  Like I said, I had a 912UL in my last Fox and loved it (by the way, my start up and shut down were equally as smooth) but have yet to fly behind a 912S.  If I were building a Model IV, there would be no question but it is a hundred pounds or so lighter than the 7 and was not designed for the cruise that the 7 was designed for (that is not to say it won't cruise along with a 7 with the right prop and engine combo).  It is my understanding that the 7 was built with the 914 in mind and thus the much higher cruise speeds.  Well, the 914 is definately out of the question due to outrageous cost but more than cost is the complexity of the turbo (I like the KISS approach).  I simply want to have a few more ponies than 100 so I can get a bit more cruise out of the airplane...and at the same time keep the weight in a reasonable range to allow for good shortfield performance (300' or so ground roll area).  I know the Rotax will do the trick in the short field category but is a bit slower in cruise.  I don't know if the Jabiru will fit both of the cruise and short field scenarios, hence the post to see if anyone does.



Thanks guys,



Darin

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:20 am Post subject: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300?

On Jul 2, 2006, at 6:43 AM, darinh wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I believe Michel here on the forums is the only one I know with the 

 Jabiru and he is in Europe.


	


.. but you're still welcome to visit me in Norway, Darin! If you take 

an airliner to Torp ENTO, I can be there to meet you with my Kitfox! 





I think both Rotax and Jabiru are fine engines. Much wisdom has been 

said in this tread and I have little to add, if it isn't an 

observation: Jabiru sells aircraft and engines. If you install a Jabiru 

engine on another aircraft, do it as Jabiru recommends. It will be easy 

and trouble-free for years to come.

On the Jabiru Yahoo list, those who have had problems are those who 

think they know better that the Jabiru engineers and use unorthodox 

solutions.

Last; as for any air-cooled engine, the shaping of the cowling is the 

alpha and omega of temperature management. You can install a Jabiru 

engine in maybe one day, but you may need many days in epoxy and 

fiberglass to shape a good cowling.



Cheers,

Michel

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:51 am Post subject: Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300?

Michel,



Thanks for the invite!  I have an older brother who lived in Norway for a couple of years and speaks the language fluently.  I have always wanted to take a fishing trip there with him so this may be a good excuse.  If I get there, I will definately look you up.  I appreciate you posts and comments on the Jabiru.  The engine is definately a work of art and is simply beautiful being completely CNC machined...if overall looks of the engine were the only judging point, the Jabiru would be it for sure.  



About the cowling and cooling issues.  I understand that it is imperative that cooling be addressed with any engine and that it may take more effort to properly fit baffling, etc. than it does to install the engine.  My understanding is that Jabiru makes a complete FWF kit for the Series 7 and I would expect that they have included any baffling that would be necessary to ensure the engine runs within its limits.  I will definately let you all know which route I choose.



Thanks,



Darin

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300?

Darin,



--- darinh <gerns25(at)netscape.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  ..... It is my understanding that the 7 was built

 with the 914 in mind and thus the much higher cruise

 speeds......


	


I think the cruise speed increase was more a function

of "true speed" gained at high altitude with a turbo

than the greater HP.  It probably indicated around the

same as other fox's.  If you really want that speed,

you need the turbo and to fly high.



Kurt S.



__________________________________________________

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300?

If you want speed, don't build a slow airplane. Clint

 

 [quote]   

From:  kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com>

Reply-To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject:  Re: Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300?

Date:  Sun, 2 Jul 2006 13:41:45 -0700 (PDT)

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com>



Darin,



--- darinh <gerns25(at)netscape.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  ..... It is my understanding that the 7 was built

 with the 914 in mind and thus the much higher cruise

 speeds......


	


I think the cruise speed increase was more a function

of "true speed" gained at high altitude with a turbo

than the greater HP.  It probably indicated around the

same as other fox's.  If you really want that speed,

you need the

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300?

I agree with Kurt, the high cruise with the 914 was at altitude and I am not going to be cruising at 15k plus so I ruled this engine out long ago.



Clint,

 	  clint_bazzill(at)hotmail. wrote: 	
		  If you want speed, don't build a slow airplane. Clint 	


I think you have misunderstood my use of "cruise speed".  I am not looking for blazing speed...I know that the kitfox is not fast and I don't expect it to be (I have owned one before you know, a Model III that cruised at 75 - 80).  I am perfectly aware that I am not going to break any speed records in one.  That being said, I would like to get as much speed as possible without sacrificing the reason I am building another Kitfox...low and slow, tree-top flying with those short backcountry strips in mind.  I have a cabin with a private 1300' one way strip located the Bitterroot mountains (within 100 nm of virtually all the strips in Idaho) that I need to get in and out of.  But, I live in Utah and I would love to have a cruise of say 120 - 130ish which would put flight time at approximately 3 -3.5 hours assuming usual winds.  I am simply trying to learn if the Jabiru 3300 will provide this type of cruise while maintaining the great short field properties of the Kitfox...if not I will go with the proven 912S.

  

It sounds like nobody can tell me if the Jabiru will provide me with both, so it will come down to a decision and without any other first hand field experience, I would have to say I would go with the Rotax because I know its performance, which by the way is good enough for me, just always looking and hoping for more.



By the way, if I would have wanted all-out speed, I would have continued with the build of my RV7 but cut that short for another Kitfox because that is where my flying passion lies...on the undeveloped strips of Idaho and Utah.



Darin

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:28 pm Post subject: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300?

I Flew my plane to Alaska and around a little over 904 hours and my fuel burn was a little less then 4.1 Gal / Hour.  Our speeds were about 110.  I always fly with power back, big wheels etc.  Figure 100 Kts TAS.  Works out quite well.  Don't pay too much attention to rate/minute climb but get there in a hurrry.  By the way my plane is a Model IV-1200 with a Rotax 912uls with a 72 inch 3 blade IVO prop. Which almost no one talks about which is pretty cheap, adj while flying.  My Trip to Florida I used also about 4.1 GPH.  I have flown 8  times to Arizonia and same fuel burn.  You are not going to get good results with Props that turn high RPM's to get power with a whimp of a prop.  You need some wood out there if you are going to make that engine work.  My 2 cents worth.  Clint

 

 [quote]   

From:  "darinh" <gerns25(at)netscape.net>

Reply-To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject:  Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300?

Date:  Sun, 2 Jul 2006 18:36:19 -0700

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" <gerns25(at)netscape.net>



I agree with Kurt, the high cruise with the 914 was at altitude and I am not going to be cruising at 15k plus so I ruled this engine out long ago.



Clint,



clint_bazzill(at)hotmail. wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   If you want speed, don't build a slow airplane. Clint


	


I think you have misunderstood my use of "cruise speed".  I am not looking for blazing speed...I know that the kitfox is not fast and I don't expect it to be (I have owned one before you know, a Model III that cruised at 75 -  80).  I am perfectly aware that I am not going to break any speed records in one.  That being said, I would like to get as much speed as possible without sacrificing the reason I am building another Kitfox...low and slow, tree-top flying with those short backcountry strips in mind.  I have a cabin with a private 1300' one way strip located the Bitterroot mountains (within 100 nm of virtually all the strips in Idaho) that I need to get in and out of.  But, I live in Utah and I would love to have a cruise of say 120 - 130ish which would put flight time at approximately 3 -3.5 hours assuming usual winds.  I am simply trying to learn if the Jabiru 3300 will provide this type of cruise while maintaining the great short field properties of the Kitfox...if not!

   I will go with the proven 912S.



It sounds like nobody can tell

ThomasTomlin(at)comcast.n
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:28 pm Post subject: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300?

Darin,

Sorry I'm jumping in here late, but I just thought I'd throw in a couple 

more comments here.

I'm heading out for a  two week vacation on the 4th, so I probably will not 

be able to answer

any questions before I go.



I have a 3300 on my IV Speedster.



Yes, I also had some teething problems with it...



Running hot...worked on the baffling.

Oil temp too high/low...worked on the oil cooler scoop.

Not enough speed..changed 60" Jab wood to 64" Sensenich G.A. prop

Cabin heat...still wish I had some...

Fuel burn too high...installed carb economy kit...what a difference!



Is any of this different from any new engine installation???

Probably not, but the knowledge base is better for the Rotax...

for now anyway.



What do I really know......I like it!



Is it the best engine out there????     Absolutely...

Not.

All engines, props and for that matter airplanes are a compromise.



I recently flew from Greeley CO to St Francis KS (150 miles) for the 

Stearman Fly-in.

Next day a storm came in, so I flew 30 miles south to hangar overnight.

Next morning back to St Francis to buy fuel.

Those three legs total 210 miles and three warmups from cold.

You should have seen the Stearman drivers face after I'd told him where I'd 

been

and the pump stopped at 8.4 gallons....priceless.



I'm probably the guy Murle Williams was talking about that flew to the 

desert

Fox fly-in last year.  We were three IV speedsters.  Theirs were 912ul and 

IFA Ivoprops.

Their planes were also much cleaner aerodynamically.  I had no wheel pants 

and 6.00x6

Clevelands hanging out in the breeze.

Yes, they had to slow down for me and I burned more fuel...a bunch more.

I'd like to make that trek again this year.  It'll be cheaper and faster.

What I have is a nice sounding, simple, smooth, and powerful engine.



Theirs can descend quicker...less shock cooling risk and IFA prop is a big 

plus.

Their cabins were warm.  I'm still fuddling with an ineffective heat system.

I think you know all the other plusses and minuses.



Am I glad I installed a Jabiru?



How about I fly to Utah, maybe in late August and you can see one happy 

owner.

Is it the Jabiru engine that makes me so happy?

Heck no...It's because I flying a Kitfox!

And if I could afford it, I'd have a big old thirsty Stearman too....



Tom Tomlin

N5XT

132.3 hours in 13 months...but who's counting?





---

kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:16 am Post subject: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300?

Darin, come to Logan for a first hand look at a Model IV with 912>

  

 John Kerr

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "darinh" <gerns25(at)netscape.net> 



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" 

 

 I agree with Kurt, the high cruise with the 914 was at altitude and I am not 

 going to be cruising at 15k plus so I ruled this engine out long ago. 

 

 Clint, 

 

 clint_bazzill(at)hotmail. wrote: 

 > If you want speed, don't build a slow airplane. Clint 

 

 I think you have misunderstood my use of "cruise speed". I am not looking for 

 blazing speed...I know that the kitfox is not fast and I don't expect it to be 

 (I have owned one before you know, a Model III that cruised at 75 - 80). I am 

 perfectly aware that I am not going to break any speed records in one. That 

 being said, I would like to get as much sp  eed as  possible without sacrificing 

 the reason I am building another Kitfox...low and slow, tree-top flying with 

 those short backcountry strips in mind. I have a cabin with a private 1300' one 

 way strip located the Bitterroot mountains (within 100 nm of virtually all the 

 strips in Idaho) that I need to get in and out of. But, I live in Utah and I 

 would love to have a cruise of say 120 - 130ish which would put flight time at 

 approximately 3 -3.5 hours assuming usual winds. I am simply trying to learn if 

 the Jabiru 3300 will provide this type of cruise while maintaining the great 

 short field properties of the Kitfox...if not! 

 I will go with the proven 912S. 

 

 It sounds like nobody can tell me if the Jabiru will provide me with both, so it 

 will come down to a decision and without any other first hand field experience, 

 I would have to say I would go with the Rotax because   I know  

&g

mike
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:05 am Post subject: Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300?

I have to chuckle on the blazing speed thing.  I really love the tree top flying, but I generally fly 80 kts (gps) while doing this.  When I need the speed, generally flying into spokane international(kgeg)  I need as much speed as possible, generally 90kts and with a 400ftmin. decent close to 100kts.  I also keep that speed up to the lights, drop off the throttle and touch down long, about 1000ft past the numbers and get right off on the first taxiway, which generally there is a 737 right behind me and touching down or close to it when I get off the runway.  Very exciting and blazing speed in a kitfox, very much needed, if you want to call it that.

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