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Fwd: MOGAS Use With FI Engines

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danbergeronham(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:30 pm Post subject: Fwd: MOGAS Use With FI Engines

--

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject: Fwd: MOGAS Use With FI Engines

 	  Quote: 	
		  There was some discussion several weeks back re use of MOGAS with fuel 

injected engines.  I expect to be finished with the fuselage by the end of 

the year and am considering various engine options.  I called Superior on 

Monday and was told that their XP360 fuel injected engines with 7.2/1 or 

8.5/1 pistons will run very happily on MOGAS,    87 octane (non-ethanol) 

and 91 octane(non-ethanol) respectively.  However, the 200 HP version (FI 

of course) of that engine does require 100LL avgas.  The 7.2/1 version is 

not terribly popular and it does cost an extra $100.

I'm leaning toward the 8.5/1 version with the fuel injection.


	




Note the important "non-ethanol" caveat.  What will you do if most auto fuels

are ethanol enhanced?  In the great Tim Allen tradition, I would give 

consideration

to 200 HP and not worry about auto fuel.  Tis your ultimate choice.



For those who fly a lot, how many people bother with auto fuel?  I for one

do not and have no desire to.



Ron Lee

jmsears(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject: Fwd: MOGAS Use With FI Engines

 	  Quote: 	
		   Note the important "non-ethanol" caveat.  What will you do if most > auto 

 fuels are ethanol enhanced?


	


We may have to figure something else, at that time.  Until we have to do 

that, I will continue to use autogas in my aircraft.  It's a great 

alternative to the more expensive 100LL and leaves my engine's plugs lead 

free.  I, for one, appreciate the debate on whether FI engines can operate 

on mogas.  It appears they can.  That's goodness and gives us auto gas users 

more engine options.



One might want to consider the fact that the Feds have been looking at 

alternatives for 100LL.  I'd worry more about losing 100LL than I would 

having to deal with ethanol, right now.  Granted, some areas have to deal 

with ethanol; but, many of us can still get plenty of ethanol free gas.



 	  Quote: 	
		   In the great Tim Allen tradition, I would give consideration

 to 200 HP and not worry about auto fuel.  Tis your ultimate choice.




	


That is a good choice for Ron; but, using mogas over the years has saved me 

a bundle of money that I could use on other things like maintenance, 

insurance, etc.  I say, don't knock it unless you've tried it.



Obviously, there are those amongst us who have deeper pockets than many of 

us who are barely able to stay in aviation; so, it's easy to suggest that we 

spend our money on the most expensive options available.  We of the lesser 

income variety are not opposed to using such things as auto conversions, 

auto gas, etc to keep us afloat.  For those of you who have more money than 

you know what to do with, follow the lead to buy 200hp engines that must use 

100LL.  That will leave more of the lower hp cores for the rest of us.  



 	  Quote: 	
		   For those who fly a lot, how many people bother with auto fuel?  I > for 

 one do not and have no desire to.


	


There may be more of us using auto gas than you think.  Just this morning, I 

overheard one pilot asking a local FBO if they sold auto gas. 

Unfortunately, he had to top off with 100LL.  I'm sure he was disappointed. 

I would have been.  Had he landed at our airport, I'd have taken him to the 

local gas station for some gas.  I just happened to have my gas cans in the 

truck.  



Jim Sears in KY

Struggling to stay in aviation by using mogas.

do not archive.

jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:20 pm Post subject: Fwd: MOGAS Use With FI Engines

At 17:00 2006-07-02, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

>There was some discussion several weeks back re use of MOGAS with 

>fuel injected engines.  I expect to be finished with the fuselage 

>by the end of the year and am considering various engine 

>options.  I called Superior on Monday and was told that their XP360 

>fuel injected engines with 7.2/1 or 8.5/1 pistons will run very 

>happily on MOGAS,    87 octane (non-ethanol) and 91 

>octane(non-ethanol) respectively.  However, the 200 HP version (FI 

>of course) of that engine does require 100LL avgas.  The 7.2/1 

>version is not terribly popular and it does cost an extra $100.

>I'm leaning toward the 8.5/1 version with the fuel injection.

Note the important "non-ethanol" caveat.  What will you do if most auto fuels

are ethanol enhanced?  In the great Tim Allen tradition, I would 

give consideration

to 200 HP and not worry about auto fuel.  Tis your ultimate choice.

For those who fly a lot, how many people bother with auto fuel?  I for one

do not and have no desire to.

Ron Lee

MOGAS is all I use unless I fill up somewhere away from home and it's 

not available.  I have no reason to pay $4 /gal when I can fly on $3 / gal.

Mike McGee, RV-4 N996RV, O320-E2G, Hillsboro, OR

jamie(at)jpainter.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:40 am Post subject: Fwd: MOGAS Use With FI Engines

It may be of interest to some folks that EAA has just announced an 

alcohol test kit for mogas.  It's available from them for $15.00.



http://www.eaa.org/communications/eaanews/060629_testkit.html



do not archive



Jamie D. Painter

http://rv.jpainter.org



 	  Quote: 	
		   Note the important "non-ethanol" caveat.  What will you do if most 

 auto fuels

 are ethanol enhanced?  In the great Tim Allen tradition, I would give 

 consideration

 to 200 HP and not worry about auto fuel.  Tis your ultimate choice.



 For those who fly a lot, how many people bother with auto fuel?  I for 

 one

 do not and have no desire to.

lors01(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:06 am Post subject: Fwd: MOGAS Use With FI Engines

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  I use auto fuel (Mogas) whenever I can get it and use Airnav.com to  find airports where it is available.  Can't wait for the day when 100LL is  replaced with unleaded.  But that's just me : )  My RX-8 rotary (10 :  1 CR) powered RV-4 runs best and gets best fuel economy on 87  octane.   I burn 100LL in a pinch but plug life is greatly  reduced.

  

 Best experts I've read say that almost all aircraft engines would work fine  on 91 octane mogas (no alcohol of course) if the engines were equipped  with knock sensors to adjust timing appropriately.  This would be a simple  and inexpensive thing to do if the FAA were not involved.  They are of  course, so the process to change over will be a long, agonizing and expensive  process but it will happen.  We will still be saddled with the expensive  idiocy of a separate distribution system for our fuel due to the growing  mandates to use ethanol which requires 1.3 gallons of fossil fuel to  produce 1 gallon of the moonshine.  

  

 Are we stupid or what?  

  

 Tracy Crook  (apologizing for the soapbox outburst)  Do Not  archive

 [quote]   ---

DonEavesRV6(at)midsouth.r
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:30 am Post subject: Fwd: MOGAS Use With FI Engines

Hello Jim - Onec a Wise Man always a Wise Man -

You  Still have the commpn sence

---

lhelming(at)sigecom.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:45 pm Post subject: Fwd: MOGAS Use With FI Engines

>>We will still be saddled with the expensive idiocy of a separate  distribution system for our fuel due to the growing mandates to use ethanol  which requires 1.3 gallons of fossil fuel to produce 1 gallon of the  moonshine.  <<

  

         Would someone please  point us to a reputable reference that authenticates it requires more  fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol energy than we get back?  How can          that make sense if oil is in short  supply?  Why waste .3 gallons of it?

  

      Do Not archive

  

 Indiana Larry

 [quote]   ---

n5lp(at)warpdriveonline.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:15 pm Post subject: Fwd: MOGAS Use With FI Engines

On Jul 3, 2006, at 5:44 PM, LarryRobertHelming wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   >>We will still be saddled with the expensive idiocy of a separate  

 distribution system for our fuel due to the growing mandates to use  

 ethanol which requires 1.3 gallons of fossil fuel to produce 1  

 gallon of the moonshine.  <<



         Would someone please point us to a reputable reference that  

 authenticates it requires more fossil energy fuel to produce  

 ethanol energy than we get back?  How can         that make sense  

 if oil is in short supply?  Why waste .3 gallons of it?



      Do Not archive


	


This is a matter of a lot of disagreement. I firmly believe the best  

way to find out is to remove the subsidies.  The free market has an  

amazing ability to sort these things out.



Larry Pardue

Carlsbad, NM



N441LP Flying

http://n5lp.net

bicyclop(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:20 pm Post subject: Fwd: MOGAS Use With FI Engines

Hey wait till you see the hydrogen auto fuel thing they’re trying to push. The plan is to extract the hydrogen from gasoline. I betcha that’ll be efficient - not. It doesn’t have to make sense to be politically expedient. The corn industry in the Midwest spent a lotta bucks on congress to get the ethanol mandates passed, not because it’s efficient, but because they make money on it.   

   

Pax,  

   

Ed Holyoke  

   

--

Vanremog(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:36 pm Post subject: Fwd: MOGAS Use With FI Engines

In a message dated 7/3/2006 4:47:54 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  lhelming(at)sigecom.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Would    someone please point us to a reputable reference that authenticates it    requires more fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol energy than we get    back?  How can         that make sense if    oil is in short supply?  Why waste .3 gallons of  it? 	


 

 ================================

  

 Here's a good factual article not written by ADM.

  

 http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/may2006/tc20060519_225336.htm

  

  

  

 GV (RV-6A  N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 799hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)

rv8ch

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:31 pm Post subject: Fwd: MOGAS Use With FI Engines

Larry Pardue wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jul 3, 2006, at 5:44 PM, LarryRobertHelming wrote:

>         Would someone please point us to a reputable reference that 

> authenticates it requires more fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol 

> energy than we get back?  How can that make sense if oil is in 

> short supply?  Why waste .3 gallons of it?

>

 This is a matter of a lot of disagreement. I firmly believe the best way 

 to find out is to remove the subsidies.  The free market has an amazing 

 ability to sort these things out.

 Larry Pardue

I agree completely.

Unfortunately, I doubt this will happen.  You've got two giant

industries battling for more and more of our taxes, and a bunch

of politicians that are doing all they can to milk these

two industries down for campaign contributions.

There are also negative side effects of ethanol production,

since it competes with the production of food.  I personally

think we should tread carefully when doing anything to

risk food production, but then again, I like to eat more

than I like to drive.

-- 

Mickey Coggins

http://www.rv8.ch/

#82007 finishing

do not archive

_________________
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 6:07 am Post subject: Fwd: MOGAS Use With FI Engines

  Seeing how we are  off subject anyway, this is one of those things that annoys the heck out of  me.  We dump tons of money and resources into alternative fuels and  technologies that are expensive, and really don't cost any less in the long  term, when there are real, proven, and viable alternatives today.  Many  countries use diesels primarily because it is less expensive and, when  implemented correctly, can be just as clean as gasoline with better gas  mileage.  You look at the Volkswagen TDI engines and they get over 40MPG on  the highway.  You then add on top of that biodiesel and you have a very  clean, completely renewable, better for the engines and the environment, fuel  supply.  We dump millions of gallons of waste vegetable and other food oils  a year that can be converted into fuel with the only byproduct being glycerin  which has thousands of uses in industry.  The corn growers could switch to  soybeans and we would have a food supply and fuel source that is just as easy to  convert as corn.  Lobbyists are the root of all evil in Washington and we  really need our elected officials to stop looking out for their interests and  start looking after the interests of the majority again.

  

   I am seriously  going to start looking into processing my own biodiesel in the future for my  dodge pickup and, if that goes well, my next car will be a diesel TDI.  Of  course the side effect of having your exhaust smell like french-fries and donuts  should be interesting.  

  

 Rant off

 do not  archive



   From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  Vanremog(at)aol.com

Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 7:33 PM

To:  rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Fwd: MOGAS Use With FI  Engines

 

  In a message dated 7/3/2006 4:47:54 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  lhelming(at)sigecom.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Would someone please point us    to a reputable reference that authenticates it requires more fossil    energy fuel to produce ethanol energy than we get back?  How can            that make sense if oil is in short    supply?  Why waste .3 gallons of it? 	


 

 ================================

  

 Here's a good factual article not written by ADM.

  

 http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/may2006/tc20060519_225336.htm

  

  

  

 GV (RV-6A N1GV  O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 799hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)

rv8ch

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 6:39 am Post subject: Fwd: MOGAS Use With FI Engines

 	  Quote: 	
		     I am seriously going to start looking into processing my own biodiesel 

 in the future for my dodge pickup and, if that goes well, my next car 

 will be a diesel TDI.  Of course the side effect of having your exhaust 

 smell like french-fries and donuts should be interesting.  


	


You'd better plan to open a few restaurants or get in tight with

someone that has some restaurants...people are catching on to

this idea.  I have a bud that is in the hamburger business,

and he thought he'd have an endless supply of cheap fuel,

but as much oil as they use, he uses a lot more in his SUV!



-- 

Mickey Coggins

http://www.rv8.ch/

#82007 finishing

do not archive

_________________
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/

chaztuna(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: Fwd: MOGAS Use With FI Engines

At 02:25 AM 7/4/2006, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>



 Larry Pardue wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  On Jul 3, 2006, at 5:44 PM, LarryRobertHelming wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		           Would someone please point us to a reputable reference that authenticates it requires more fossil energy fuel to produce ethanol energy than we get back?  How can that make sense if oil is in short supply?  Why waste .3 gallons of it?

 	
This is a matter of a lot of disagreement. I firmly believe the best way to find out is to remove the subsidies.  The free market has an amazing ability to sort these things out.

 Larry Pardue 	


 I agree completely.



 Unfortunately, I doubt this will happen.  You've got two giant

 industries battling for more and more of our taxes, and a bunch

 of politicians that are doing all they can to milk these

 two industries down for campaign contributions.



 There are also negative side effects of ethanol production,

 since it competes with the production of food.  I personally

 think we should tread carefully when doing anything to

 risk food production, but then again, I like to eat more

 than I like to drive.



 -- 

 Mickey Coggins 	


 Larry & Mickey,

  Recently, the process has been improved. Instead of using the actual corn (which would drive up the price of corn as food) a process has been developed which uses the leaves and stalk, which are otherwise wasted. This drastically reduces the price to produce ethanol.This would allow the farmer to extract more cash from their current corn crop with no increase in price to the food crop.

  The REAL issue however, is that currently, Brazil can sell ethanol much cheaper than it is done here in the US. They have been making ethanol from the leaves and stalk for several years. However, there is a  $0.50 per gallon tariff on imported ethanol. Like Larry said, subsidies in the form of tariffs are at work here.

  To paraphrase Lincoln:  Of the corporations, by the corporations, for the corporations!  

 Charlie Kuss

 do not archive

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:16 am Post subject: Fwd: MOGAS Use With FI Engines

Actually that is what has kept me from getting into it at the moment,

well that and building an airplane.  A RAM 3500 sucks a lot of gas, even

though it is still less than a lot of SUV's, and where I live in Texas

people actually pay the restaurants to take it instead of the other way

around.  I have a friend back in WI that really wants to do this so I

told him when I move back if he collects oil from places I would convert

it.  Make him do the hard work!



Michael

Do not archive 



--

lhelming(at)sigecom.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 8:30 am Post subject: Fwd: MOGAS Use With FI Engines

Thank you.  Below is the copied text from the source below that hits  the main question head on.  Indiana Larry      do not  archive

  

 "Doesn't producing ethanol on a large scale use a great deal of  energy?

Yes. Some ethanol skeptics have even argued that the process involved  in growing grain and then transforming it into ethanol requires more energy from  fossil fuels than ethanol generates. In other words, they say the whole movement  is a farce. 



There's no absolute consensus in the scientific community,  but that argument is losing strength. Michael Wang, a scientist at the Energy  Dept.-funded Argonne National Laboratory for Transportation Research, says "The  energy used for each unit of ethanol produced has been reduced by about half  [since 1980]." Now, Wang says, the delivery of 1 million British thermal units  (BTUs) of ethanol uses 0.74 million BTUs of fossil fuels. (That does not include  the solar energy -- the sun shining -- used in growing corn.) By contrast, he  finds that the delivery of 1 million BTUs of gasoline requires 1.23 million BTU  of fossil fuels." 

 [quote]   ---

lm4(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:41 pm Post subject: Fwd: MOGAS Use With FI Engines

You might want to be carful about jumping off to another 

kind of fuel so hastily. Because of recent research it's 

been found out that this oil shortage was just a matter of 

us forgetting to measure the oil we had. The research 

showed that our oil is in Alaska, California, Texas, 

Oklahoma and Wyoming and all the while our 

dipsticks are in Washington D.C.



Larry Mac Donald

Do not achcive



On Tue, 04 Jul 2006 16:37:26 +0200 Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>

writes:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 >   I am seriously going to start looking into processing my own 

 biodiesel 

 > in the future for my dodge pickup and, if that goes well, my next 

 car 

 > will be a diesel TDI.  Of course the side effect of having your 

 exhaust 

 > smell like french-fries and donuts should be interesting.  

 

 You'd better plan to open a few restaurants or get in tight with

 someone that has some restaurants...people are catching on to

 this idea.  I have a bud that is in the hamburger business,

 and he thought he'd have an endless supply of cheap fuel,

 but as much oil as they use, he uses a lot more in his SUV!

 

 -- 

 Mickey Coggins

 http://www.rv8.ch/

 #82007 finishing

 

 

 do not archive

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