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ADS-B Receivers
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cooprv7(at)yahoo.com
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:48 am Post subject: ADS-B Receivers

Wow, more awesome write-upsâ€¦thanks everyone.



Last question for now, any ideas if the GRT EIS info will display on any other systems?  I realize the EIS is standalone, but Iâ€™ve become used to seeing the full graphic display on an EFIS screen.  Iâ€™m toying with the idea of keeping one of the GRT WS screens and put it on what is now a blank area on the passenger side.  Good, essentially free, backup but I donâ€™t want it running the A/P or EIS as that would get old real quick.



Thanks again,

Marcus



[quote] On Sep 1, 2015, at 1:01 AM, Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Marcus,

 

 If you are like me, you want the biggest bang for the buck and you want whatever you get to work and have superb after the sale service.  I'll assume the following:

 - You are not looking to upgrade the GNS-480, as such you retain the as is IFR GPS capability but do not have an ADS-B out compliant device.

 - The Grand Rapids EIS is a very nice stand alone engine monitor so it need not be replaced.

 - No matter what you need to buy a replacement XPDR.

 

 I offer that it is not preferable to have anything other than an integrated EFIS display that has moving map, TIS and ADS-B traffic and weather.  TIS still is a great way to fill in traffic that is not ADSB out capable. 

 

 Using these assumptions there are now several options to examine.  I have been flying with the Dynon SkyView for three years and recommend it for the following reasons:

 - Plug and play - and it all works.

 - Free for life aviation data base updates.

 - Behind the panel Mode S transponder that is significantly less expensive than the other options.  The transponder provides TIS information for display on the SkyView EFIS.

 - Full 2020 ADS-B in/out compliance using their new SkyView SV-GPS-2020 receiver (thus no need to give Garmin a wheelbarrow full of money to upgrade or replace the GNS-480) and you end up with two independent GPS receivers.

 - No need to replace the TruTrack autopilot

 - No need to replace the Grand Rapids EIS

 - My experience with Dynon puts them at the top of the list for after the sale service.  The exact opposite is true for Garmin.

 - If you take the additional step of using the Dynon heated pitot you get a very nice AOA indicator.  I find the AOA audio warning of most value.

 - Add the $99/year subscription to Seattle Avionics and you get up to date geo-referenced approach plates, airport diagrams, IFR and VFR charts.

 - Add the $35 WiFi plug in and now your back seat passengers get the ADAHRS feed to drive ForeFlight on their iPads, and you get electronic flight planning transfer between the iPad and the SkyView.

 

 Another option is to keep one of your existing GRT EFIS displays and only get one Dynon SkyView display for the pilot side of the panel.  Option to get a second SkyView display can be decided down the road.

 

 Carl

 

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deej(at)deej.net
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:06 am Post subject: ADS-B Receivers

On 08/31/2015 11:01 AM, Carl Froehlich wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   - Full 2020 ADS-B in/out compliance using their new SkyView SV-GPS-2020 receiver (thus no need to give Garmin a wheelbarrow full of money to upgrade or replace the GNS-480) and you end up with two independent GPS receivers.


	


A comment, the cost of upgrading the GNS480 to the latest software which

provides the "Garmin ADS-B+" protocol and allows the 480 to be 2020

compliant is whatever your avionics shop charges for one hour of labor.

 Not very expensive at all, surprisingly.  



I suspect most people would end up paying somewhere between $75 to $150

in total.



I just did this upgrade on the 480 last month and it was dirt simple and

easy, not even any need to take the unit out of the panel.



-Dj

-- 

Dj Merrill - N1JOV - EAA Chapter 87

Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/

Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/

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carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:01 am Post subject: ADS-B Receivers

Marcus,



I don't know about the other offerings but I do not believe the GR EIS will display on the Dynon SkyView.  You could get the SkyView EMS (Engine Monitoring System) module and try to use your current probes and such, but if my decision I'd just keep the existing GR EFIS and EIS and put the display on the co-pilot side.   As you point out, the other benefit is you would retain a full EFIS backup.



I like having the second display in the plane.  My normal cruise set up is pilot side half screen Moving Map and half screen Primary Flight Display.  Co-pilot side is half or 20% Engine Monitoring and half or 80% alternating  between longer range Map (mainly to see weather), IFR or VFR chart or approach plate.  This last week I spent 10 hours or so in the right hand seat to let my son-in-law (Navy F-18 aviator) get some time in the RV-10.  I kept the pilot/co-pilot setup the same and found it easy to look over to the pilot screen when needed.



My experience is while possible, a single 10" display running something like 40% moving map, 40% PFD and 20% engine monitoring is not what you want other than a backup mode. 



Carl



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Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:46 am Post subject: Re: ADS-B Receivers

More of my two cents, and I have my flak jacket on.



Everyone loves what they have, so you need to consider that in reading their opinions. If I read "Well, I bought a Dynon but Now I wish I had not" that opinion would be worth a lot - but you never see that.

Now, I own and love GRT equipment, so take my opinion as just as biased as everyone elses!

If you are serious about an upgrade, you can:

Buy a GRT HX. Move the HS-WS to the right. The boxes can talk to each other, both see the EIS data. Buy a new air data box for the HX so you have redundancy, or keep and share the old one, your decision.

Buy the modified (no control head) TT-22 transponder for $2200 from GRT. Sell your old one. This is comparable to the Dynon transponder in cost.

Pay your avionics shop $100 to install new software on your 480 so that it puts out Garmin's ADSB+ protocol. Run a single wire from the 480 to the TT-22 with this data. GRT HX software to run all this is available now in beta form, final version will be out soon. Free, of course. Finally, choose from a large selection of ADSB-in boxes, all less than one Aviation unit ($1000), to get ADSB-in data.



If you want an EFIS upgrade, then this path gives you a lot of value for, I think, the least cost. If you do not want an EFIS upgrade, then a stand alone Tt-22 or -31 adds about $400 to the cost for ADSB-out. You will need to compare total in/out costs to the UAT solutions, again look for a UAT that can read Garmin ADSB+ format; or comes with its own inexpensive gps ( don't forget to add in antenna and control costs).



Okay, now flak jacket on. IMHO the Skyview is only marginally acceptable for actual IMC, because its attitude solution (horizon) requires accurate airspeed data. Dynon recognized the issue, and a software upgrade attempts to flag bad airspeed and revert to gps data. However, there is at least one report of a partial pitot blockage, where the blockage was bad enough to generate incorrect horizon data, but not bad enough to trigger the switch to gps data.

I believe but am not certain that the turn coordinator bars continued to work properly, so a really good pilot could squint and watch those bars while ignoring the horizon. And/or, throw the switch to put the autopilot into stand alone mode and use that. There are options, which is why I said "marginally". But you must be aware of the possibility.

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_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

cooprv7(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:57 pm Post subject: ADS-B Receivers

Thanks again for the time everyone has taken to respond, all great inputs.  Carl, awesome looking panel!



Bob, I think you may have landed on the solution for me.  Upgrading the 480 sounds like a great way to go and stick with the overall platform I have now.  I forgot about the fact the WS and HX could talk to each other.  I like the idea of a big screen for me and backup off to the side.  I don’t have enough room to run larger than dual 6.5” screens, but with only one the limit is reduced significantly.



Now if the money box fairy would just stop by...



Thanks again all,

Marcus



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Sep 1, 2015, at 5:46 AM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> wrote:

 

 

 

 More of my two cents, and I have my flak jacket on.

 

 Everyone loves what they have, so you need to consider that in reading their opinions. If I read "Well, I bought a Dynon but Now I wish I had not" that opinion would be worth a lot - but you never see that.

 Now, I own and love GRT equipment, so take my opinion as just as biased as everyone elses!

 If you are serious about an upgrade, you can:

 Buy a GRT HX. Move the HS-WS to the right. The boxes can talk to each other, both see the EIS data. Buy a new air data box for the HX so you have redundancy, or keep and share the old one, your decision.

 Buy the modified (no control head) TT-22 transponder for $2200 from GRT. Sell your old one. This is comparable to the Dynon transponder in cost.

 Pay your avionics shop $100 to install new software on your 480 so that it puts out Garmin's ADSB+ protocol. Run a single wire from the 480 to the TT-22 with this data. GRT HX software to run all this is available now in beta form, final version will be out soon. Free, of course. Finally, choose from a large selection of ADSB-in boxes, all less than one Aviation unit ($1000), to get ADSB-in data.

 

 If you want an EFIS upgrade, then this path gives you a lot of value for, I think, the least cost. If you do not want an EFIS upgrade, then a stand alone Tt-22 or -31 adds about $400 to the cost for ADSB-out. You will need to compare total in/out costs to the UAT solutions, again look for a UAT that can read Garmin ADSB+ format; or comes with its own inexpensive gps ( don't forget to add in antenna and control costs).

 

 Okay, now flak jacket on. IMHO the Skyview is only marginally acceptable for actual IMC, because its attitude solution (horizon) requires accurate airspeed data. Dynon recognized the issue, and a software upgrade attempts to flag bad airspeed and revert to gps data. However, there is at least one report of a partial pitot blockage, where the blockage was bad enough to generate incorrect horizon data, but not bad enough to trigger the switch to gps data.

 I believe but am not certain that the turn coordinator bars continued to work properly, so a really good pilot could squint and watch those bars while ignoring the horizon. And/or, throw the switch to put the autopilot into stand alone mode and use that. There are options, which is why I said "marginally". But you must be aware of the possibility.

 

 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=446630#446630

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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:39 pm Post subject: ADS-B Receivers

Here's some more jacket for the flak...



I recently experienced a partial pitot blockage while in IMC.  It was 

one of those all too rare moments when I was hand flying the plane.  My 

GRT HX EFISs presented a perfect attitude display.  So perfect that I 

did not notice the airspeed decay that was quite visible on the airspeed 

tape.  With the engine running normally it was easy flying the attitude 

indication.



However  when I switched on the Trutrak AP I noticed the "AS" flag as 

the AP commanded a dive to prevent a stall.  I quickly switched it off, 

recovered, then tried it again with the same result. I finally asked for 

vectors to the nearest airport which incidentally led me to declare an 

emergency.  The plane was easily flown using pitch and power in IMC and 

VMC conditions to an uneventful landing (with trucks rolling).



It took some effort but I finally cleared out the insect debris clogging 

my Gretz pitot.



The fact that the GRT HX EFIS maintained it's attitude display 

independent of airspeed made this a non-event.  If my attitude 

indication had caused me to gradually hand fly the plane into a dive or 

other unusual attitude things would have been a bit tougher to sort out 

and recover from.



This was a particularly perverse partial pitot blockage.  Further 

'testing'  showed that In fact, the blockage occurred only when flying 

in wet conditions (wet cloud, mist or rain).  Apparently the insect 

debris was absorbent and would swell up instantly with the slightest bit 

of moisture.  Then it would unblock itself after 10 or 20 minutes of dry 

conditions.  This means everything would be fine until wet IMC was 

encountered.



In my particular setup the outcome was never in doubt and I'm glad the 

NTSB didn't have to try to sort this one out.



Bill "happily flying his kitchen sink of a panel" Watson



BTW, I'm flying GRT HX, Trutrak AP and Navworx ADSB - It all works great!



On 8/31/2015 3:46 PM, Bob Turner wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Okay, now flak jacket on. IMHO the Skyview is only marginally acceptable for actual IMC, because its attitude solution (horizon) requires accurate airspeed data. Dynon recognized the issue, and a software upgrade attempts to flag bad airspeed and revert to gps data. However, there is at least one report of a partial pitot blockage, where the blockage was bad enough to generate incorrect horizon data, but not bad enough to trigger the switch to gps data.

 I believe but am not certain that the turn coordinator bars continued to work properly, so a really good pilot could squint and watch those bars while ignoring the horizon. And/or, throw the switch to put the autopilot into stand alone mode and use that. There are options, which is why I said "marginally". But you must be aware of the possibility.



 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB

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Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: ADS-B Receivers

Thanks for reminding me that if the indicated airspeed gets too low, the autopilot is NOT an option. I have the Trio but it has the same feature as the TT, it will dive the airplane to prevent flight below indicated stall speed.

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_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

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