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gengrumpy
Joined: 07 May 2013
Posts: 131
Location: Tullahoma, TN
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 Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:08 am Post subject: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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Tim,
I have been in aviation all of my adult life, have lost many friends to accidents, and have officially investigated accidents for cause factors.
You are correct - most accidents result from poor pilot decision making or inadequate pilot training for the task at hand, including poor decision making when responding to equipment failures.
grumpy
do not archive
| Quote: | On Sep 19, 2015, at 12:31 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> wrote:
Wayne,
Sorry I'm going to write this without educating myself by reading that ntsb
report to refresh my memory, but I would even say that the Ritter one was
likely avoidable. From what I remember, he wasn't a young person, and he
was not feeling well that day and decided to fly home from a fly-in not
feeling well. We all know that you're not supposed to get in the plane when
you're not in condition to fly. There are days that just having a cold, even
though you're not medicated, is reason to ground yourself. Heck, I even
take a leak in flight, any time I even have an inkling I may need to, before
I attempt an instrument approach in actual conditions. So to me, from
what I remember about that crash, it was likely avoidable. My guess is that
it was a medical issue, that nobody will ever know the answer to.
That is speculation, yes, but I don't think there was anything in the crash that
pointed to the airplane, and there were things that pointed to health.
So I figure that one still at least in my mind, goes to pilot error in some way.
It's funny, years and years ago when reading about crashes in magazines, I
noticed that they almost always started the sentence with the
official accident cause as "the pilot failed..." and at first, I was kind of
offended by that. I mean, why always blame the pilot? But then I got
more flying experience, and I realized that it really *IS* that way. You are
ultimately 100% responsible for the safety of your flight...not 99. You can
blame it on a gust of crosswind, or anything like that. Somewhere along the
way, the pilot failed. So now I've turned a full 180 and I basically feel that
every accident is avoidable, if the pilot just does his job correctly.
I'll happily give a pass to the guy who has an engine out over the ocean,
or the Canadian/Alaskan wilderness, but in general, there is almost always
at least a good possibility of making a flight survivable.
All this jibber jabber reminds me of what was maybe my first IFR flight after
getting my instrument ticket. I took a buddy for a short 15 mile IFR flight,
and within a few seconds of getting into the clouds, a little of the good kind
of paranoia came over me. I remember vividly thinking to myself ... "Well,
you got yourself into this...you took off, and now you're in it, and it doesn't
matter that you're talking to ATC and it's a short flight....it's 100% up to
yourself to get this plane back on the ground with everyone alive."
It was pretty sobering, because at that point in time, I wasn't so sure that even
though I had the ticket, I had the stuff. It was just one of those humbling
times that I appreciated having.
Anyway, that is why I included the Ritter flight in the net that I cast when I said
they were ALL pilot caused. I think it was just a poor choice to depart.
Tim
On 9/18/2015 9:48 PM, rv10flyer wrote:
>
>
> I too do not feel cg or weight was the issue. I depart at gross wt and near our aft limit on landing. No problem controlling it. Sensitive yes. I would think that a severe aft cg problem would have had consequences at rotation, not 3.5 miles East. I am betting weather and a very thin waxing crescent moon had a factor in the loss of control. He flew towards town, the brighest area around. Time will tell. Flying without a certificate proves poor ADM to begin with, so it was just a matter of time. Unfortunately, we now have thousands more around the country that hate those dangerous little airplanes.
>
> Tim, we did have one fatal in Texas that was undetermined...Mr. Ritter. The rest I agree on.
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id 080317X00316&ntsbno=DFW08LA081&akey=1
>
> --------
> Wayne G.
>
>
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rv10flyer
Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:29 am Post subject: Re: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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Most pilots think it can never happen to them. There is always the 10-20% that are out of our control. In-flight fire in wx or at night. Bird strikes. ATC error. Mid-air. Design flaw...yes even that RV-10 we built is not perfect. Not everyone built their plane and not all build errors get caught during a pre-buy or condition inspection. You can bet that we'll get blamed anyway by our own and outsiders.
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Wayne G. |
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AirMike
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:03 pm Post subject: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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Tim is 100% correct. We are solely responsible for our flights. I scratched a Y/E day a week ago because the atmospheric conditions were not up to my standards (smoke). I have lost 4 friends to stupid (avoidable) accidents. I also saw the sobering sight of four young people going up in smoke after overloading in high/hot conditions in a 172 some years ago.
Flying is an inherently risky activity - the risk can be dramatically reduced with common sense, serious approach to the risks, attention to the weather, and an appreciation of your limitations and the limitations of the aircraft.
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See you OSH '18
Q/B - sold. |
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partner14
Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Granbury Texas
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:12 am Post subject: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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All you will be able to mutter is WOW.
http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20150916X80028&key=1
Don McDonald
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 12:31 AM
Subject: Re: Re: RV-10 Crash in Georgia
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>
Wayne,
Sorry I'm going to write this without educating myself by reading that ntsb
report to refresh my memory, but I would even say that the Ritter one was
likely avoidable. From what I remember, he wasn't a young person, and he
was not feeling well that day and decided to fly home from a fly-in not
feeling well. We all know that you're not supposed to get in the plane when
you're not in condition to fly. There are days that just having a cold,
even
though you're not medicated, is reason to ground yourself. Heck, I even
take a leak in flight, any time I even have an inkling I may need to, before
I attempt an instrument approach in actual conditions. So to me, from
what I remember about that crash, it was likely avoidable. My guess is that
it was a medical issue, that nobody will ever know the answer to.
That is speculation, yes, but I don't think there was anything in the
crash that
pointed to the airplane, and there were things that pointed to health.
So I figure that one still at least in my mind, goes to pilot error in
some way.
It's funny, years and years ago when reading about crashes in magazines, I
noticed that they almost always started the sentence with the
official accident cause as "the pilot failed..." and at first, I was
kind of
offended by that. I mean, why always blame the pilot? But then I got
more flying experience, and I realized that it really *IS* that way.
You are
ultimately 100% responsible for the safety of your flight...not 99. You can
blame it on a gust of crosswind, or anything like that. Somewhere along the
way, the pilot failed. So now I've turned a full 180 and I basically
feel that
every accident is avoidable, if the pilot just does his job correctly.
I'll happily give a pass to the guy who has an engine out over the ocean,
or the Canadian/Alaskan wilderness, but in general, there is almost always
at least a good possibility of making a flight survivable.
All this jibber jabber reminds me of what was maybe my first IFR flight
after
getting my instrument ticket. I took a buddy for a short 15 mile IFR
flight,
and within a few seconds of getting into the clouds, a little of the
good kind
of paranoia came over me. I remember vividly thinking to myself ... "Well,
you got yourself into this...you took off, and now you're in it, and it
doesn't
matter that you're talking to ATC and it's a short flight....it's 100% up to
yourself to get this plane back on the ground with everyone alive."
It was pretty sobering, because at that point in time, I wasn't so sure
that even
though I had the ticket, I had the stuff. It was just one of those
humbling
times that I appreciated having.
Anyway, that is why I included the Ritter flight in the net that I cast
when I said
they were ALL pilot caused. I think it was just a poor choice to depart.
Tim
On 9/18/2015 9:48 PM, rv10flyer wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: "rv10flyer" <wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com (wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com)>
I too do not feel cg or weight was the issue. I depart at gross wt and near our aft limit on landing. No problem controlling it. Sensitive yes. I would think that a severe aft cg problem would have had consequences at rotation, not 3.5 miles East. I am betting weather and a very thin waxing crescent moon had a factor in the loss of control. He flew towards town, the brighest area around. Time will tell. Flying without a certificate proves poor ADM to begin with, so it was just a matter of time. Unfortunately, we now have thousands more around the country that hate those dangerous little airplanes.
Tim, we did have one fatal in Texas that was undetermined...Mr. Ritter. The rest I agree on.
http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20080317X00316&ntsbno=DFW08LA081&akey=1
--------
&========================http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Li> http://foru - List Contribution Web Site -http://www.matronic====================
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[quote][b]
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_________________
Don A. McDonald
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:11 am Post subject: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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Well, I guess that confirms some things people have been
scratching their heads about. Sounds like there wasn't
much left of anything to even look at, let alone learn
from. If you can't learn from the OBVIOUS issues with the
flight, you likely shouldn't be flying airplanes....even
if you do or don't have a pilots certificate.
If you're like the many tens of thousands of responsible
pilots out there, this particular case should give you
nothing to worry about...not many people would attempt
such things, but Darwin takes care of those who do.
Tim
do not archive
On 9/23/2015 10:09 AM, Don McDonald wrote:
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rv10flyer
Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:16 am Post subject: Re: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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Field elevation 200'. Ceiling was 2100' near the time of the accident. That would put him in and out of the clouds, possibly in combination with aft CG. Also interested in toxicology report. Wonder if he flew his July 2015 KDAB IFR trips with an IFR guy in the right seat?
Yes Don...Wow!
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Wayne G. |
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woxofswa
Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 349
Location: AZ
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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I'm sure that there were redeeming and wonderful qualities in each of those who perished. I grieve with their families. Such a sad and tragic shame.
However,
If the reports are true, then this was criminal negligence if not outright M****r/S*****e, and unfortunately we all pay in the end.
If we don't want the Feds to police us, then we must police ourselves and we can't do that by sugarcoating idiotic behavior.
God bless the grieving. God bless us all.
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Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Flew May 10 2014 |
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rv10flyer
Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: RV-10 Crash in Georgia |
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Unfortunately, guys like that stay under the radar, don't hang out on Matronics/Pilots of America/VAF like we do. They don't fly or associate with us that play by the rules. That makes it difficult to police them. Maybe someone could match the aircraft registration/medical/ppc database up and check into those that don't match. I know all three of mine are in order.
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Wayne G. |
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