Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Flying stuff

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

brainsflight(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:08 am Post subject: Flying stuff

Thanks everyone for their inputs on flying, slips, etc.  Like building our planes and living our lives I hope we all do it as safe as possible but have fun.  

   

  Paul I agree with your comments and in my Luscombe I fly close patterns & sometimes have almost full rudder in a slip depending on the situation.  Slips are fun and look cool!  But a taildragger with no flaps is much different from a 701.  As far as the 701 goes I can only go from what Roger at the factory told me and that was, "it's not recommended to slip the 701 by the designer."  And I believe he said it's because of the increased side loads it puts on the airframe. Can we slip a 701...sure...and in an emergency situation where I had one shot at a landing strip I would.  I only put this information out on the list as that....information.  It's your airplane...slip it or don't slip it....your decision.

    

  As another CFI mentioned on the list...don't get too slow in a slip or you risk entering a stall or spin at a low altitude....bad situation.  Practice at altitude first.  

   

  Roger's technique is what I would consider an advanced technique with having a low power setting to get the descent rate you want (almost a stall) then adding power close to the ground.  Look at "Stick and Rudder" chapter 14 for an explanation of the principles of why this works.  

   

  Make sure you are comfortable with basic flying maneuvers, takeoffs, landings, etc before you try what I mention above.  Many of us have not flown in years and need to focus on the basics.  Set personal minimums for yourself, weather, etc and stick to them.  Have fun and be safe.  

   

  Cheers,

Brian

  www.brainsflight.com 

   

  do not archive



  		How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low  PC-to-Phone call rates.

cffd(at)pgrb.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:45 am Post subject: Flying stuff

For crosswind landings, do you always land crab  into the wind.  Slipping with a wing low into the cross wind is easier  than decrabbing just before touchdown as well as the forward view is  better.

  

 Also, Sebastion Heintz has told me the 701 slips  very well to lose altitude without flaps.

  

 Chuck D.

 N701TX

 [quote]   ---

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: Flying stuff

Hi Chuck,



 I am not sure whether your question was for me, but I will answer it anyway.



 My default method of handling crosswind landings is to use the slip method.  I keep the runway centerline pointing toward my airplane with ailerons and keep the nose pointing down the runway with rudder.



 I do this with power off in most cases.  The two exceptions to the power off approach are:  When operating at large airports where it is important to stay fast in the traffic pattern (this can include instrument approaches and straight in approaches) so I don't cause problems for the heavy planes landing behind me;  and when the crosswind is too high for this approach to work.  



 I don't really like the crab approach, but that is probably just a matter of habit.  The crab approach works just fine and I can perform it if I choose to do so.  I think it works because the  wind is usually much lower at the ground than when clear of any ground effects.  I don't fly planes with huge wing spans and probably never will, so that issue is moot for me.



 For some reason I am not particularly surprised Sebastian Heintz would say something completely different from what Roger said.  I don't have a 701, so it is not a big issue for me.  I would probably pay more attention to Roger since my experience with him is much more positive than my experience with Sebastian which has been universally negative.  In the 701 slip case, I would certainly follow the advice of those listers who suggested practicing the maneuver at altitude before using it for landing.



 Happy landings,



 Paul

 XL fuselage

 do not archive



 



  	  Quote: 	
		  For crosswind landings, do you always land crab into the wind.  Slipping with a wing low into the cross wind is easier than decrabbing just before touchdown as well as the forward view is better.

  

 Also, Sebastion Heintz has told me the 701 slips very well to lose altitude without flaps.

  

 Chuck D.

 N701TX 	
 

 -

cffd(at)pgrb.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:32 am Post subject: Flying stuff

Paul,

 Actually my note was for Brian  Kissinger.

 Like you, I prefer to keep on the airplane fuselage  lined up with the runway (side slip) and when the wind requires it, I land  on one rear main to keep from drifting sideways.  I may send a note to ZAC  about a forward slip in the 701.

 Chuck D.

 [quote]   ---

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:07 am Post subject: Flying stuff

Hi Chuck,



 I think writing to ZAC on the slip question is a great idea.



 I would guess the kind of slip which may not be a good idea for the 701 is the deep cross controlled condition used to dump lots of altitude without gaining airspeed.  I can't imagine it is inappropriate to do the mild version of a slip commonly used to deal with mild crosswind landings.



 Sometimes I wish it were easy to ask Chris Heintz questions like this rather than trying to get Sebastian or one of the other guys to really understand the question.



 Paul

 XL Fuselage

 do not archive



 



  	  Quote: 	
		  Paul,

 Actually my note was for Brian Kissinger.

 Like you, I prefer to keep on the airplane fuselage lined up with the runway (side slip) and when the wind requires it, I land on one rear main to keep from drifting sideways.  I may send a note to ZAC about a forward slip in the 701.

 Chuck D. 	
 

 -

d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:09 am Post subject: Flying stuff

I have had little luck with the "kick it straight"  method and also slip and if required land on the upwind wheel. If one were to be  a little hot and kicked it straight and then found the aircraft floating a  little in ground effect with the "kick it straight" method I expect one would  soon find the runway sliding off to one side. AMHIK.

 [quote]   ---

rdewees(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:34 am Post subject: Flying stuff

I have been following the slip/crab/flaps/no flaps subject with a lot of 

interest.   I fly a 601HDS taildragger out of a short turf strip and 

it's a no brainer to slip to lose altitude- not because I'm showing off, 

but because of no flaps and high obstacles at each end.  The caveat 

every poster mentions with whatever his/her best method of losing 

altitude is  to avoid a "coffin corner" edge-of-the-envelope stall and 

possible spin entry.

    The Lift Reserve Indicator that Scott Laughlin has helped provide 

many of us with has sure taken the guesswork out of this question for 

me.  I put it right on the top of my panel and it will tell me what the 

lift is doing at any speed or altitude or power setting.  I strongly  

reccomend it if you are going to do slips and crabs or just want to nail 

your landing speeds in any condition.  It will even convince a newbie 

CFI that you have lift and control of the plane.



Ron  N601TD 140 hours



Paul Mulwitz wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Chuck,



 I think writing to ZAC on the slip question is a great idea.



 I would guess the kind of slip which may not be a good idea for the 

 701 is the deep cross controlled condition used to dump lots of 

 altitude without gaining airspeed.  I can't imagine it is 

 inappropriate to do the mild version of a slip commonly used to deal 

 with mild crosswind landings.


	


-----------snip-------



 	  Quote: 	
		  



 Paul

 XL Fuselage

 do not archive

NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:06 pm Post subject: Flying stuff

Ron,

  

 How long is your field and how high are your obstacles?? I have a 1300 ft  grass strip with 150 ft power lines at one end and 50 ft trees at the other.  Other runway is 700 ft with 30 ft trees on takeoff side. I was just wondering  what your take off and landing requirements are.

  

 Bob Spudis

 N701ZX  701/912S

  

 do not archive

  

  

  

  

 In a message dated 7/3/2006 3:36:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  rdewees(at)mindspring.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I have    been following the slip/crab/flaps/no flaps subject with a lot of    

interest.   I fly a 601HDS taildragger out of a short turf strip    and 

it's a no brainer to slip to lose altitude- not because I'm showing    off, 

but because of no flaps and high obstacles at each end.

JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: Flying stuff

Ron, great to hear from you. I finished up the annual and mods tonight and after washing tomorrow I'll try flying again. It's been a month. Hope I remember how ! I can't wait to see how the LRI works out I just installed. Hope it's as big a help to me as you have indicted it has been for you. Take care, Bill

rdewees(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:56 am Post subject: Flying stuff

Hi Bill, Glad you are out of annual again.  The first one is a big one. 

I recorded about 15 pages in airframe and engine logs.

 The LRI will be great for you.  Take off without looking at it and got 

level and start some power on and off stalls. You will get to see the 

critical area by the seat of the pants and then look at the gauge.  I 

just copied the angle drawn on the plans and it was  correct for my 

"yellow" area. 

Good luck

Ron



JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Ron, great to hear from you. I finished up the annual and mods tonight 

 and after washing tomorrow I'll try flying again. It's been a month. 

 Hope I remember how ! I can't wait to see how the LRI works out I just 

 installed. Hope it's as big a help to me as you have indicted it has 

 been for you. Take care, Bill

brainsflight(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:26 am Post subject: Flying Stuff

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hello,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701flying...thanks.  I don’t want to get bogged down into too much hangar flying(it’s fun though).  However I believe what the main concern is the more aggressive slipsto lose altitude.  With the 701’s design we shouldn’t have to kick into a big slip to drop altitude.  If we are way too high then (as Paul T says) maybe a go-around is thesafe thing to do.  When I started to do a big slip one time with Roger that’s when he made the comment mentioning that the 701 is not recommended to be slipped.  It’s not a little slipinto the wind to kill a crosswind drift...it’s a big slip to drop altitude.  By the way, Roger owns a 1946 Luscombe too & knows how to do big slips to drop altitude...he’s a good pilot.  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701 	
1 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701 	
2 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701 	
3 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701 	
4 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701 	
5 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701 	
6 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701 	
7 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701 	
8 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701 	
9 	  Quote: 	
		  flying...thanks.  I don’t want to get bogged down into too much hangar flying 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		  flying...thanks.  I don’t want to get bogged down into too much hangar flying 	
1 	  Quote: 	
		  flying...thanks.  I don’t want to get bogged down into too much hangar flying 	
2 	  Quote: 	
		  flying...thanks.  I don’t want to get bogged down into too much hangar flying 	
3 	  Quote: 	
		  flying...thanks.  I don’t want to get bogged down into too much hangar flying 	
4 	  Quote: 	
		  flying...thanks.  I don’t want to get bogged down into too much hangar flying 	
5 	  Quote: 	
		  flying...thanks.  I don’t want to get bogged down into too much hangar flying 	
6 	  Quote: 	
		  flying...thanks.  I don’t want to get bogged down into too much hangar flying 	
7 	  Quote: 	
		  flying...thanks.  I don’t want to get bogged down into too much hangar flying 	
8 	  Quote: 	
		  flying...thanks.  I don’t want to get bogged down into too much hangar flying 	
9 	  Quote: 	
		  (it’s fun though).  However I believe what the main concern is the more aggressive slips 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		  (it’s fun though).  However I believe what the main concern is the more aggressive slips 	
1 	  Quote: 	
		  (it’s fun though).  However I believe what the main concern is the more aggressive slips 	
2 	  Quote: 	
		  (it’s fun though).  However I believe what the main concern is the more aggressive slips 	
3 	  Quote: 	
		  (it’s fun though).  However I believe what the main concern is the more aggressive slips 	
4 

[/quote]

  		Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. [url=http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=36035/*http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/  ]Try it free.[/url]

ch601xl(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 6:46 am Post subject: Flying Stuff

Just a small note on the issue. A " little slip into the wind to kill a crosswind drift" is called a forward slip. With a crosswind from the left a little right rudder is used to keep the nose pointed down the runway with enough left bank to stop the drift.  A side slip is used to drop alt without an increase in airspeed buy using say, right rudder, to expose the left side of the aircraft to the slip stream while banking left to keep the course over the ground strait (to the runway). More control input, faster alt loss. 

 	  Quote: 	
		  It's not a little slip

into the wind to kill a crosswind drift 	


On 7/4/06, Brian kissinger <brainsflight(at)yahoo.com (brainsflight(at)yahoo.com) > wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  

Hello,Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701

flying...thanks.  I don't want to get bogged down into too much hangar flying

(it's fun though).  However I believe what the main concern is the more aggressive slips

to lose altitude.  With the 701's design we shouldn't have to kick into a big slip to 

drop altitude.  If we are way too high then (as Paul T says) maybe a go-around is the

safe thing to do.  When I started to do a big slip one time with Roger that's when he made 

the comment mentioning that the 701 is not recommended to be slipped.  It's not a little slip

into the wind to kill a crosswind drift 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		  

into the wind to kill a crosswind drift 	
1 	  Quote: 	
		  

into the wind to kill a crosswind drift 	
2 	  Quote: 	
		  

into the wind to kill a crosswind drift 	
3 	  Quote: 	
		  

into the wind to kill a crosswind drift 	
4 	  Quote: 	
		  

into the wind to kill a crosswind drift 	
5 	  Quote: 	
		  

into the wind to kill a crosswind drift 	
6 	  Quote: 	
		  

into the wind to kill a crosswind drift 	
7 	  Quote: 	
		  

into the wind to kill a crosswind drift 	
8 	  Quote: 	
		  

into the wind to kill a crosswind drift 	
9 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hello, 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hello, 	
1 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hello, 	
2 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hello, 	
3 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hello, 	
4 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hello, 	
5 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hello, 	
6 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hello, 	
7 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hello, 	
8 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hello, 	
9 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701

	
0 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701

	
1 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701

	
2 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701

	
3 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701

	
4 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701

	
5 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701

	
6 	


  



  		Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. [url=http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=36035/*http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/+%0A]Try it free.[/url]  



[/quote]

-- 

Christopher W. E. Smith

fly1m1

http://ch-601xl.com

sonar1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:25 am Post subject: Flying stuff

Hi guys:



I did talk to Chris at Cloverdale, about flying the 701,  mentioning 

that I land it slower than most people. He agreed,  and said that too 

many people fly it like a Cessna.

I do not slip it because it rattles too much and just doesn't sound happy.

For safety, I plan all of my approaches so that I am high. Then when it 

is obviious that I am too high, I dive to get on my desired path. When I 

raise the nose, the extra speed bleeds off very rapidly, and I do a full 

stall, nose high touchdown. I tried slips, and going slow to lose 

altitude, but it wasn't nearly as effective, and much less margin of 

safety. Power is always off before or at the threshold.

My approaches are:

Flaps up: 60 mph, power off before runway, hold it off - off- off.

Flaps down: 50 mph, power off before the runway, hold it off - off-off.

It just stops flying and flops onto the ground.

Movie of an approach with flaps is at:



http://www.sonar100.com



I do a little crab, or slip into the crosswind, but at  these landing 

speeds, even when I get it wrong, it doesn't seem to matter.



Fred Sanford  Santa Barbara. Ca. N9701   70 hours

do not archive

ch601xl(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:30 am Post subject: Flying Stuff

I typed it backwards.... Side slip for crosswind....forward slip for alt. Sorry...



On 7/4/06, Christopher Smith <ch601xl(at)gmail.com  (ch601xl(at)gmail.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  Just a small note on the issue. A " little slip into the wind to kill a crosswind drift" is called a forward slip. With a crosswind from the left a little right rudder is used to keep the nose pointed down the runway with enough left bank to stop the drift.  A side slip is used to drop alt without an increase in airspeed buy using say, right rudder, to expose the left side of the aircraft to the slip stream while banking left to keep the course over the ground strait (to the runway). More control input, faster alt loss. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  It's not a little slip



into the wind to kill a crosswind drift 	




On 7/4/06, Brian kissinger < brainsflight(at)yahoo.com (brainsflight(at)yahoo.com) > wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  



Hello,Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701

flying...thanks.  I don't want to get bogged down into too much hangar flying



(it's fun though).  However I believe what the main concern is the more aggressive slips

to lose altitude.  With the 701's design we shouldn't have to kick into a big slip to 



drop altitude.  If we are way too high then (as Paul T says) maybe a go-around is the



safe thing to do.  When I started to do a big slip one time with Roger that's when he made 



the comment mentioning that the 701 is not recommended to be slipped.  It's not a little slip



into the wind to kill a crosswind drift 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		  



into the wind to kill a crosswind drift 	
1 	  Quote: 	
		  



into the wind to kill a crosswind drift 	
2 	  Quote: 	
		  



into the wind to kill a crosswind drift 	
3 	  Quote: 	
		  



into the wind to kill a crosswind drift 	
4 	  Quote: 	
		  



into the wind to kill a crosswind drift 	
5 	  Quote: 	
		  



into the wind to kill a crosswind drift 	
6 	  Quote: 	
		  



into the wind to kill a crosswind drift 	
7 	  Quote: 	
		  



into the wind to kill a crosswind drift 	
8 	  Quote: 	
		  



into the wind to kill a crosswind drift 	
9 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hello, 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hello, 	
1 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hello, 	
2 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hello, 	
3 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hello, 	
4 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hello, 	
5 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hello, 	
6 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hello, 	
7 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hello, 	
8 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hello, 	
9 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701

	
0 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701

	
1 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701

	
2 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701

	
3 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701

	
4 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701

	
5 	  Quote: 	
		  Good inputs everyone...thanks.  Paul Tipton makes some good observations from his 701

	
6 	


   



  		Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. [url=http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=36035/*http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/+%0A]Try it free.[/url]  



	




-- 

Christopher W. E. Smith

fly1m1

 http://ch-601xl.com  

[/quote]

-- 

Christopher W. E. Smith

fly1m1

http://ch-601xl.com

rlee468(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 11:43 am Post subject: Flying stuff

Bob,

 Our field is 4200 feet long and there are no trees on either end. I am  in the desert at E77 airport, San Manuel, Arizona. We are at 3300 feet above sea  level. I really haven't shaken out the requirements to do the things  you asked, sorry.

  Our density altitude can get very high when it gets to 100 degrees.  It sure saps the heck out of your power. In spite of that my 701 literally jumps  off the ground with the 100 HP Rotax.

  I can stop very short from touch-down point, the trick is  touching down at precisely the spot of intention. Just a bit of float can put  you down the runway 100 feet or so very quickly. If you can get it in you can  certainly get it out, not many planes can do that.

 Ron Lee

 Tucson, AZ

 Do not archive

 [quote]   ---

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum