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whodja
Joined: 27 Jan 2014
Posts: 50
Location: Apex NC (near Raleigh)
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 Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:26 am Post subject: Soundproofing the QB fuselage |
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Has anyone installed soundproofing in a QB fuselage? I am trying to figure out if I can even remove the fwd cp floor pans to install sound proofing. Any suggestions welcome.
Thanks
Tal
Fuselage/empennage together
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bill.peyton
Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 198
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:34 am Post subject: Re: Soundproofing the QB fuselage |
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I am sure if you use the search function for this forum, or the VAF RV-10 forum you will find numerous posts on this subject, but to answer your question. Yes, many folks have insulated under the front floor and also some have installed fireproofing material such as fiberfrax etc. under the floor pan and in the tunnel. I insulated my entire QB fuse. I am not sure how much sound deadening I really accomplished, or whether I would do it again, but I can tell you it stays nice and warm in the cold winters. It's not easy to remove the floor, but it can be done.
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whodja
Joined: 27 Jan 2014
Posts: 50
Location: Apex NC (near Raleigh)
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:51 am Post subject: Re: Soundproofing the QB fuselage |
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Temp insulation was also another benefit that I would like.
Thanks Bill
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: Soundproofing the QB fuselage |
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I think Bill's comments are right on. Even a minimal effort seems to improve the thermal insulation. But it takes a major effort (and added weight) to make any real difference in noise. One issue is the way most humans judge sound levels. It takes about a 30% decrease in sound intensity before the average person can detect any change at all!
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:21 pm Post subject: Soundproofing the QB fuselage |
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The general rules of thumb are that it takes 3 dBA change for most humans to detect. 10 dBA is an order of magnitude change, roughly 50% less sound energy in the decreasing direction.
All noise scales are logarithmic.
If you can get your cabin from 100 dBA to 90 you will think it is a major change.
There are a lot of factors involved. Frequency, vs pulsation. Exhaust vs prop noise. Noise through windshield vs noise through firewall vs noise through belly or fuselage sides. Noise also decreases fairly rapidly with distance. Back seat should be less than front seat. Does your insulation tend to reduce vibration of the exterior skins or not.
On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 6:27 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>
I think Bill's comments are right on. Even a minimal effort seems to improve the thermal insulation. But it takes a major effort (and added weight) to make any real difference in noise. One issue is the way most humans judge sound levels. It takes about a 30% decrease in sound intensity before the average person can detect any change at all!
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
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flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:50 pm Post subject: Soundproofing the QB fuselage |
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I think the best soundproofing is 4 real good headsets!!
I'm amazed at the noise in any airplane when you remove the headset.
I think the Ps and Cs limit soundproofing to a firewall blanket on the cabin side.
Linn
On 10/25/2015 10:18 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
[quote] The general rules of thumb are that it takes 3 dBA change for most humans to detect. 10 dBA is an order of magnitude change, roughly 50% less sound energy in the decreasing direction.
All noise scales are logarithmic.
If you can get your cabin from 100 dBA to 90 you will think it is a major change.
There are a lot of factors involved. Frequency, vs pulsation. Exhaust vs prop noise. Noise through windshield vs noise through firewall vs noise through belly or fuselage sides. Noise also decreases fairly rapidly with distance. Back seat should be less than front seat. Does your insulation tend to reduce vibration of the exterior skins or not.
On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 6:27 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <[url=mailto:bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu]bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)[/url]>
I think Bill's comments are right on. Even a minimal effort seems to improve the thermal insulation. But it takes a major effort (and added weight) to make any real difference in noise. One issue is the way most humans judge sound levels. It takes about a 30% decrease in sound intensity before the average person can detect any change at all!
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
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[b]
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johngoodman
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:11 am Post subject: Re: Soundproofing the QB fuselage |
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I used Abesco FP200. It is easy to install, and it really gives the cabin floors a solid feel. No cold feet, either.
http://www.fp200abesco.com/
John
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rv10pro(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:24 pm Post subject: Soundproofing the QB fuselage |
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Kelly thanks for bringing it back from transgressing to Thermal from Acoustic infiltration. You remind me of Dan Newland's posts and his lecture at OSH on material, cost, effort and resulting gains. Sound and Thermal are two separate pursuits. Beginning with the source helps the remediation.
Dan used to work at ORCO down in Emeryville, CA before moving to the NW and tackling insulation on high end boats with Pegasus.
John Cox
Â
On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 7:18 PM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]The general rules of thumb are that it takes 3 dBA change for most humans to detect. 10 dBA is an order of magnitude change, roughly 50% less sound energy in the decreasing direction.
All noise scales are logarithmic.
If you can get your cabin from 100 dBA to 90 you will think it is a major change.
There are a lot of factors involved. Frequency, vs pulsation. Exhaust vs prop noise. Noise through windshield vs noise through firewall vs noise through belly or fuselage sides. Noise also decreases fairly rapidly with distance. Back seat should be less than front seat. Does your insulation tend to reduce vibration of the exterior skins or not.
On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 6:27 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:
[b]
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Jim Combs
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 140
Location: Lexington, Ky
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:41 am Post subject: Soundproofing the QB fuselage |
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Speaking of sound. Has anyone considered doing anything to muffle the exhaust noise? That would appear to be the source of quite a lot of noise. The -10 has a quite loud engine noise at any power setting other than idle. Â
Just a thought.
Do Not Archive
Jim C
On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 10:20 PM, John Cox <rv10pro(at)gmail.com (rv10pro(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Kelly thanks for bringing it back from transgressing to Thermal from Acoustic infiltration. You remind me of Dan Newland's posts and his lecture at OSH on material, cost, effort and resulting gains. Sound and Thermal are two separate pursuits. Beginning with the source helps the remediation.
Dan used to work at ORCO down in Emeryville, CA before moving to the NW and tackling insulation on high end boats with Pegasus.
John Cox
Â
On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 7:18 PM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | The general rules of thumb are that it takes 3 dBA change for most humans to detect. 10 dBA is an order of magnitude change, roughly 50% less sound energy in the decreasing direction.
All noise scales are logarithmic.
If you can get your cabin from 100 dBA to 90 you will think it is a major change.
There are a lot of factors involved. Frequency, vs pulsation. Exhaust vs prop noise. Noise through windshield vs noise through firewall vs noise through belly or fuselage sides. Noise also decreases fairly rapidly with distance. Back seat should be less than front seat. Does your insulation tend to reduce vibration of the exterior skins or not.
On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 6:27 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
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RV-10 -> N312F - Flying as of 12/2008 |
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flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:41 am Post subject: Soundproofing the QB fuselage |
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I'm going out on a limb here so keep the saws away!
I believe most of the 'engine noise' is due to the prop, not the engine
itself. That comment comes from experience with my Pitts. With the -10
having mufflers, I have a hard time believing you can hear the exhaust
itself.
Having said that, with the exhaust exiting fairly close to the fuselage,
there may be impulse waves hitting the fuselage creating 'noise'.
Since I'm not flying yet, and I haven't heard many -10s ..... I throw
this out for discussion.
Linn
On 10/27/2015 8:06 AM, Jim Combs wrote:
| Quote: | Speaking of sound. Has anyone considered doing anything to muffle the
exhaust noise? That would appear to be the source of quite a lot of
noise. The -10 has a quite loud engine noise at any power setting
other than idle.
Just a thought.
Do Not Archive
Jim C
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Jim Combs
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 140
Location: Lexington, Ky
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:37 am Post subject: Soundproofing the QB fuselage |
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Sounds like some data gathering may be in order. Â
On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 9:06 AM, Linn Walters <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com (flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Linn Walters <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com (flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com)>
I'm going out on a limb here so keep the saws away!
I believe most of the 'engine noise' is due to the prop, not the engine itself. That comment comes from experience with my Pitts. With the -10 having mufflers, I have a hard time believing you can hear the exhaust itself.
Having said that, with the exhaust exiting fairly close to the fuselage, there may be impulse waves hitting the fuselage creating 'noise'.
Since I'm not flying yet, and I haven't heard many -10s ..... I throw this out for discussion.
Linn
On 10/27/2015 8:06 AM, Jim Combs wrote:
| Quote: | Speaking of sound. Has anyone considered doing anything to muffle the exhaust noise? That would appear to be the source of quite a lot of noise. The -10 has a quite loud engine noise at any power setting other than idle.
Just a thought.
Do Not Archive
Jim C
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glastar(at)gmx.net
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:20 am Post subject: Soundproofing the QB fuselage |
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I can add a few facts here from 2 RV-10s which got through noise
measurements in Switzerland:
both limited to 2500 RPM for noise reduction!! test flights with close
to MTOW.
#1
Barret IO 540
Hartzell 2 blade C2YR-1BFP/F8068D 2
2 Liese silencers typ RV-10 behind the standard Vetterman
empty 721 kg (1590 pounds (has the pod attach points)) some foam (thin)
is sprayed onto the inside of the fuselage but noise level inside is a
bit higher (1 dB(A)) and subjective a higher vibration level can be felt
On flight testing following parameters were achieved (calculated to SL):
Vy 100 KIAS
RoC 1360 fpm
TO over 15m/45ft 1305 ft/398m
Measured with 79.2 dB(A) on overflights referenced to 300m /984 ft over
the microphone
#2
Mattituck TMX-IO 540
MT 3 blade MTV-12B-193/53
standard Vetterman 6 into 2 no silencer
empty 763.5 kg (1683 pounds all over insulated like Tim did with the
foam rolls). noise level inside is lower (1 dB(A)) especially on the
back seat the plane is very smooth with little vibration.
On flight testing following parameters were achieved (calculated to SL):
Vy 98 KIAS
RoC 1425 fpm
TO over 15m/45ft 1243 ft/379m
Measured with 77.5 dB(A) on overflights referenced to 323m /1060 ft over
the microphone
Remarks, the prop being 4" larger on the 2 blade gets closer to the
critical mach numbers (louder) the 3 blade better in climb gets the #2
an advantage of being roughly 8% higher over the mic.
#2 is with insulation inside more quiet but as the vibration level is
less it is the question what is causing it.
Interesting, the 3 blade wins without the silencers over the 2 blade
with silencer, something I would not have thought before, but could be,
that the insulation on the fuselage bottom does stop reflection waves
from the exhaust gases.
Just data so you need to make up your own mind on that
Cheers Werner
| Quote: | On 10/27/2015 8:06 AM, Jim Combs wrote:
> Speaking of sound. Has anyone considered doing anything to muffle the
> exhaust noise?
|
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Jim Combs
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 140
Location: Lexington, Ky
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:47 am Post subject: Soundproofing the QB fuselage |
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Do you have any idea of the engine RPM / manifold pressure on those flights?
On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 12:17 PM, Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)>
I can add a few facts here from 2 RV-10s which got through noise measurements in Switzerland:
both limited to 2500 RPM for noise reduction!! test flights with close to MTOW.
#1
Barret IO 540
Hartzell 2 blade C2YR-1BFP/F8068D 2
2 Liese silencers typ RV-10 behind the standard Vetterman
empty 721 kg (1590 pounds (has the pod attach points)) some foam (thin) is sprayed onto the inside of the fuselage but noise level inside is a bit higher (1 dB(A)) and subjective a higher vibration level can be felt
On flight testing following parameters were achieved (calculated to SL):
Vy        100 KIAS
RoCÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â 1360 fpm
TO over 15m/45ft 1305 ft/398m
Measured with 79.2 dB(A) on overflights referenced to 300m /984 ft over the microphone
#2
Mattituck TMX-IO 540
MT 3 blade MTV-12B-193/53
standard Vetterman 6 into 2 no silencer
empty 763.5 kg (1683 pounds all over insulated like Tim did with the foam rolls). noise level inside is lower (1 dB(A)) especially on the back seat the plane is very smooth with little vibration.
On flight testing following parameters were achieved (calculated to SL):
Vy        98 KIAS
RoCÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â 1425 fpm
TO over 15m/45ft 1243 ft/379m
Measured with 77.5 dB(A) on overflights referenced to 323m /1060 ft over the microphone
Remarks, the prop being 4" larger on the 2 blade gets closer to the critical mach numbers (louder) the 3 blade better in climb gets the #2
an advantage of being roughly 8% higher over the mic.
#2 is with insulation inside more quiet but as the vibration level is less it is the question what is causing it.
Interesting, the 3 blade wins without the silencers over the 2 blade with silencer, something I would not have thought before, but could be, that the insulation on the fuselage bottom does stop reflection waves from the exhaust gases.
Just data so you need to make up your own mind on that
Cheers Werner
| Quote: | On 10/27/2015 8:06 AM, Jim Combs wrote:
| Quote: | Speaking of sound. Has anyone considered doing anything to muffle the
exhaust noise?
|
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glastar(at)gmx.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:17 pm Post subject: Soundproofing the QB fuselage |
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Jim,
engine RPM was 2500 RPM as CS and limited to that as otherwise they
would not pass the noise measurement in this country.
Actually measured levels were
#1 77.2-79.5 dB(A) we had 1019 hPA QNH on that day, RPM varied between
2477 and 2575 (the 79.5 dB(A))
#2 (He might have MP logged) 74.0-76.2 dB(A) we had 1018 hPA QNH on that
day, RPM varied between 2489 and 2500
But then this is corrected according ICAO to represent noise level on
Sea Level in standard atmosphere as well as height, power and RPM are
corrected.
Cheers Werner
On 27.10.2015 18:43, Jim Combs wrote:
| Quote: | Do you have any idea of the engine RPM / manifold pressure on those flights?
On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 12:17 PM, Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net
<mailto:glastar(at)gmx.net>> wrote:
<mailto:glastar(at)gmx.net>>
I can add a few facts here from 2 RV-10s which got through noise
measurements in Switzerland:
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Mike Whisky
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 336
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Soundproofing the QB fuselage |
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Jim MP was 27 decreasing to 26.5 climbing from 2300ft to 3000ft with around 98 KIAS.
Although subjective I consider my -10 less noisy compared with the ones I flew in before. But truth be told there were always month and years between these flights so they would barely hold up to any proof. Werner had the direct comparison as he switched planes right away.
Cheers
Michael
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:08 pm Post subject: Soundproofing the QB fuselage |
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On 10/25/2015 9:51 AM, whodja wrote:
| Quote: |
Temp insulation was also another benefit that I would like.
The question you may want to get an answer to is, "Is temp insulation
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something the '10 needs?". Asking flying builders without insulation
would be a good way to get an answer.
My experience is that the '10 and that big banger up front generate more
than enough heat to get things toasty fast and keep them there in all
situations I've flown in. I'm speaking specifically of the IO540
without any diversion for carb heat.
As has been discussed at length, there are potential heat problems with
the tunnel.
The distribution of heat through the vents is not ideal and could be
improved for back seat passengers I'm told. Any door leaks can create a
cool spot but there is now no reason to have any with the improved
latches and various seal solutions.
Three things discourage this builder from adding insulation; 1) more
work, 2) more weight, 3) the potential for holding moisture, especially
under the floor.
Bill "still beaming from an NC-FL trip in the best plane of all" Watson
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rv10flyer(at)live.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:37 pm Post subject: Soundproofing the QB fuselage |
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Bill mentioned:
Three things discourage this builder from adding insulation; 1) more
work, 2) more weight, 3) the potential for holding moisture, especially
under the floor.
I used Lizardskin, it’s a sound control (that works) and they have a ceramic
insulator. it’s a spray on and would not work for a completed plane as it is
messy. Since its sprayed it wont get moisture under anything. I may have
been a little cheap applying it as I don’t think I have it as think as the
seller wants, but I do know that when I tapped the aluminum in the plane it
had a much louder sound than after I sprayed the sound control. The ceramic
is meant to adjust the temps in the plane something like 20F, I cant say for
certain if it works but I do know that when its freezing outside and I touch
the sides I don’t feel it as being so cold.
Even with the extra 18Lbs of sound (13lbs) and ceramic (5Lbs) the plane is
loud. I cant imagine what my plane would be like without the sound control.
Concerning the tunnel heat- don’t have it! I sprayed the ceramic on the
(in)sides and have a stainless steel vent that pretty much blocks out most
heat from ever getting into the tunnel.
Heat wise- I used barely a pull at 17F OAT of the heat in the front and same
for the back, otherwise there is no heat entering the plane from any vents.
Would I do the sound and ceramic like I did again. I would, takes minimal
space spraying versus the mats, it does cut back the aluminum noise and does
add a level of temperature protection from outside. I might not be so cheap
next time and buy an extra bucket of each to get a little more sound control
and heat, but its fine the way it is now too!
In the end the best sound control is a pair of expensive headsets- the 1K
ones. I have worn less expensive ones and they just didn’t block the noise
as well as the expensive ones, and they take up even less space than the 1/4
wide sound control I sprayed.
Pascal
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