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N38CW
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 57
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
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 Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:07 am Post subject: S702-1 Intermittent Duty Starter Contactor...pedigree unkno |
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I have the same one. I called to get confirmation on the internal wiring of the "I" terminal that is to be used for an annunciator output because I wanted to know exactly how it worked. Talked to the top two guys there. Neither could tell me how it worked nor could they supply a schematic of the internals.
From: "Greenbacks, UnLtd." <N4ZQ(at)verizon.net>
To: Aeroelectric <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 8:35 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: S702-1 Intermittent Duty Starter Contactor...pedigree unknown
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greenbacks, UnLtd." <N4ZQ(at)verizon.net (N4ZQ(at)verizon.net)>
I purchased this starter contractor recently and I was surprised to
see that there was no identifiable manufacturer and country of origin markings on this part.
B&C declined (refused) to give me this information and suggested that if I were dissatisfied,
I should return the item..[b]htnbsp; -Matt Dralle,tribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_-===================================
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Bill Settle
RV-8 Fuselage |
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jbsoar(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:10 am Post subject: S702-1 Intermittent Duty Starter Contactor...pedigree unkno |
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B&C manufacturers and sells products of very high quality. Where the products are sourced from isn't a reflection on the quality of the parts. Â
On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 6:35 AM, Greenbacks, UnLtd. <N4ZQ(at)verizon.net (N4ZQ(at)verizon.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greenbacks, UnLtd." <N4ZQ(at)verizon.net (N4ZQ(at)verizon.net)>
I purchased this starter contractor recently and I was surprised to
see that there was no identifiable manufacturer and country of origin markings on this part.
B&C declined (refused) to give me this information and suggested that if I were dissatisfied,
I should return the item..
Angier Ames
===========
br> fts!)
r> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
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Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
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email(at)jaredyates.com
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:43 am Post subject: S702-1 Intermittent Duty Starter Contactor...pedigree unkno |
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Here's a link to a Cole Hersee 24037 on Amazon:http://amzn.to/1TlkBvK
When the small business falls short, there's always the big business. Alas, it isn't always true the other way around.
On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Greenbacks, UnLtd. <N4ZQ(at)verizon.net (N4ZQ(at)verizon.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greenbacks, UnLtd." <N4ZQ(at)verizon.net (N4ZQ(at)verizon.net)>
I purchased this starter contractor recently and I was surprised to
see that there was no identifiable manufacturer and country of origin markings on this part.
B&C declined (refused) to give me this information and suggested that if I were dissatisfied,
I should return the item..
Angier Ames
===========
br> fts!)
r> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-
Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
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jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:17 am Post subject: S702-1 Intermittent Duty Starter Contactor...pedigree unkno |
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I assume you have seen the PDF that explain how to wire up the unit ? Link on the B&C web site ...
You should be able to ohm out the "I" terminal ...
Not a very complicated device ...
All the best
Jan
On Feb 15, 2016, at 14:38, Bill Settle <billsettle(at)bellsouth.net (billsettle(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | I have the same one. I called to get confirmation on the internal wiring of the "I" terminal that is to be used for an annunciator output because I wanted to know exactly how it worked. Talked to the top two guys there. Neither could tell me how it worked nor could they supply a schematic of the internals.
From: "Greenbacks, UnLtd." <N4ZQ(at)verizon.net (N4ZQ(at)verizon.net)>
To: Aeroelectric <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: S702-1 Intermittent Duty Starter Contactor...pedigree unknown
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greenbacks, UnLtd." <N4ZQ(at)verizon.net (N4ZQ(at)verizon.net)>
I purchased this starter contractor recently and I was surprised to
see that there was no identifiable manufacturer and country of origin markings on this part.
B&C declined (refused) to give me this information and suggested that if I were dissatisfied,
I should return the item..htnbsp; -Matt Dralle,tribution" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.matr=================================
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jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:53 am Post subject: S702-1 Intermittent Duty Starter Contactor...pedigree unkno |
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I do not think that is the unit we are talking about - I believe the unit S702-1 is blue ... If you look at the B&C web site ..
All the best
Jan
On Feb 15, 2016, at 15:14, Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com (email(at)jaredyates.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Here's a link to a Cole Hersee 24037 on Amazon:http://amzn.to/1TlkBvK
When the small business falls short, there's always the big business. Alas, it isn't always true the other way around.
On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Greenbacks, UnLtd. <N4ZQ(at)verizon.net (N4ZQ(at)verizon.net)> wrote:
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email(at)jaredyates.com
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:02 am Post subject: S702-1 Intermittent Duty Starter Contactor...pedigree unkno |
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My proposal was an alternative to the blue B&C unit.
On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Jan <jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk (jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk)> wrote:
| Quote: | I do not think that is the unit we are talking about - I believe the unit S702-1 is blue ... If you look at the B&C web site ..
All the best
Jan
On Feb 15, 2016, at 15:14, Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com (email(at)jaredyates.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Here's a link to a Cole Hersee 24037 on Amazon:http://amzn.to/1TlkBvK
When the small business falls short, there's always the big business. Alas, it isn't always true the other way around.
On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Greenbacks, UnLtd. <N4ZQ(at)verizon.net (N4ZQ(at)verizon.net)> wrote:
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:49 pm Post subject: S702-1 Intermittent Duty Starter Contactor...pedigree unkno |
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John,
Your statement 'by definition +V' is not the only definition. While I see your point, it's not uncommon to 'drive' a load by grounding it; perhaps a misuse of the term, but it happens, which is why the question had to be asked. A wiring diagram defines the terms.
The sales persons at B&C could have easily provided that drawing to him, instead of doing the Bubba 'Duh' routine. A specialty shop like B&C should have employees trained well enough to answer such a simple question about their products. And it shouldn't be that difficult to add a hyperlink to that wiring diagram to the product web page, either. Why make a customer guess/experiment (with multi-hundred amps) when the info is, or should be, at their fingertips? You can get that kind of service at your local auto parts store. 
I don't mean to beat up on them too much, but this issue wouldn't have been an issue if the employees had done their jobs.
Charlie
On 2/15/2016 2:32 PM, John Tipton wrote:
| Quote: | Connect 'B' terminal to battery
Connect 'M' terminal to starter
Connect 'S' terminal to your starter button (+V)
---
'I' terminal can drive (by definition +V) a starter engaged light
See:Â http://www.bandc.aero/pdfs/001510VFRSingleALT.pdf
Explains the starter on light
John
Sent from my iPad
   ----x--O--x----
On 15 Feb 2016, at 08:06 pm, Bill Settle <[url=mailto:billsettle(at)bellsouth.net]billsettle(at)bellsouth.net (billsettle(at)bellsouth.net)[/url]> wrote:
| Quote: | O.K., this is why I am hesitant on posting here and why I haven't mentioned this in the months since I ran into this issue. I knew we would wind up running off into the ditch on this one. Here is the link to the contactor and which also has a link to the wiring diagram. Feel free to review the diagram and show me where it says the "I" terminal goes positive on contact closure. If you can, then I stand corrected.
http://www.bandc.aero/intermittentdutystartercontactor.aspx
From: John Tipton <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com (jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com)>
To: "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)" <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: Re: S702-1 Intermittent Duty Starter Contactor...pedigree unknown
I'm not sure what is being asked here (ie: subject line - 'pedigree unknown') but we are now talking about the "I" terminal, which is shown on any (eg: Z series or B&C) wiring diagram goes live (+v) when the contactor is closed, therefore can power a light which says 'starter engaged' !!!
Regards
John Sent from my iPad
   ----x--O--x----
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peter(at)sportingaero.com
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:43 pm Post subject: S702-1 Intermittent Duty Starter Contactor...pedigree unkno |
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Before EASA the UK had a requirement for every piston aeroplane with an electric starter & contactor to have a 'starter engaged' light...
Peter On 15 Feb 2016 22:25, "John B" <jbsoar(at)gmail.com (jbsoar(at)gmail.com)> wrote: | Quote: | Problem solved!
I don't recall ever flying a piston aircraft that had a "starter working" light. Perhaps it is not a bad idea!
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 15, 2016, at 3:47 PM, Bill Settle <billsettle(at)bellsouth.net (billsettle(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | John,
Thank you for this. I had not seen it. I do see it is "driven" by +12 on the diagram you sent.
Thanks again.
From: John Tipton <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com (jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com)>
To: "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)" <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: Re: S702-1 Intermittent Duty Starter Contactor...pedigree unknown
Connect 'B' terminal to battery
Connect 'M' terminal to starter
Connect 'S' terminal to your starter button (+V)
---
'I' terminal can drive (by definition +V) a starter engaged light
See:Â http://www.bandc.aero/pdfs/001510VFRSingleALT.pdf
Explains the starter on light
JohnSent from my iPad
   ----x--O--x----
On 15 Feb 2016, at 08:06 pm, Bill Settle <billsettle(at)bellsouth.net (billsettle(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | O.K., this is why I am hesitant on posting here and why I haven't mentioned this in the months since I ran into this issue. I knew we would wind up running off into the ditch on this one. Here is the link to the contactor and which also has a link to the wiring diagram. Feel free to review the diagram and show me where it says the "I" terminal goes positive on contact closure. If you can, then I stand corrected.
http://www.bandc.aero/intermittentdutystartercontactor.aspx
[url=http://www.bandc.aero/intermittentdutystartercontactor.aspx][/url]
From: John Tipton <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com (jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com)> To: "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)" <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 2:40 PM Subject: Re: Re: S702-1 Intermittent Duty Starter Contactor...pedigree unknown
I'm not sure what is being asked here (ie: subject line - 'pedigree unknown') but we are now talking about the "I" terminal, which is shown on any (eg: Z series or B&C) wiring diagram goes live (+v) when the contactor is closed, therefore can power a light which says 'starter engaged' !!!
Regards
JohnSent from my iPad
   ----x--O--x----
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lyleapgmc
Joined: 19 Feb 2014
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:53 pm Post subject: S702-1 Intermittent Duty Starter Contactor...pedigree unkno |
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Robert,
Don't take offense to the "running off in to the ditch" comment. It happens all too often in forums of all kinds when someone asks a question about the whizifier on their car. Someone else tries to answer the first poster's question but then mentions in the same thread that they can't find bulbs to fit the dash instruments. The entire thread goes on to discuss bulbs and the whizifier gets lost in the reeds in the ditch.
It is nothing personal.
People will go on forever about things they know something about all the while ignoring the question they don't understand. Such may be the case with my response.
Lyle
On 2/15/2016 11:26 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
| Quote: | At 02:06 PM 2/15/2016, you wrote:
| Quote: | | O.K., this is why I am hesitant on posting here and why I haven't mentioned this in the months since I ran into this issue. |
How do you get a question answered if you don't
ask????
| Quote: | I knew we would wind up running off into the ditch on this one. Here is the link to the contactor and which also has a link to the wiring diagram. Feel free to review the diagram and show me where it says the "I" terminal goes positive on contact closure. If you can, then I stand corrected.
http://www.bandc.aero/intermittentdutystartercontactor.aspx
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Running into a ditch??? This forum has been active first
on Compuserve and later on Matronics for over 30 years.
This contactor and its brothers have been discussed at
length and in detail many times over those years and the
photo I posted previously has been on my website for
at least 20 years.
I've never called out use of the "I" terminal on the
z-figures because there never seemed to be much interest
in it beyond the occasional discussion about a starter-
engaged light . . . which hasn't been a really big
thing. I think I've got one schematic that suggests
using the "I" terminal to drive the built-in solenoid/
contactor on a PM starter . . . there was a lot more
discussion about that.
In any case, it's a generic automotive part with
a rich service history of satisfactory performance
on airplanes.
Bob . . . |
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jbsoar(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:27 am Post subject: S702-1 Intermittent Duty Starter Contactor...pedigree unkno |
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Folks installing electrical systems in their aircraft might well consider buying a copy of Bob's book, titled:  "The AeroElectric Connection."Bob Nuckolls is a talented engineer, true. Bob Nuckolls is also an extremely talented writer! His book answers these questions, as well as being a very enjoyable read. It is a practical manual, and a history book, as well as a schematic catalog. It is available on the B&C website. It is a good value!
Essentially, we are using automotive stuff in our airplanes, which is what the aircraft manufacturers did. Very few automotive electrical components ever fail in use on an automobile. The numbers in daily service are counted in the tens of millions. Aircraft are pampered, relative to the typical automobile. Components wisely sourced from the automobile industry are very unlikely to fail in service in a light aircraft. Â
Regarding the "origin questions," it is very difficult to determine where many of these components come from. The automotive industry is global, and it has been for many decades. Individual parts of an assembly almost surely come from different parts of the world, and are assembled somewhere. Does that become the "country of origin?"  Does it matter? Â
Cheers!Â
John B
On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 7:52 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: |
So back to my original post and a new question…. Lets take the case of a continuous duty contactor with no known pedigree, offered for sale from a supposedly reputable source. |
 Do you have foundation for disputing
 B&C's repuation?
| Quote: | | If it fails in flight, you’re screwed. |
 Really? How so? How can that part fail?
 How would you know that it failed? Is it
 pre-flight detectable? How hard is it to
 craft a plan-b that deals comfortable with
 the failure of THAT contactor . . . or any
 other component in your system?
| Quote: | | Who in their right mind would install this part. You ask your supplier for clarification as to brand and country of origin and you are met with a refusal to provide this information. |
 If it's not marked on the part, the individual
 being queried may not have that information
 . . . and even if he/she did, how does
 'country of origin' offer any assurances
 of performance?
 Is there some notion that parts from some
 countries will last forever and while others
 die in . . . X hours or less?
| Quote: | | If your supplier has any interest in maintaining high standards and a reputation for excellence, it would change its business practice. |
 I have been an associate and observer of B&C's
 business practices since it's inception. I was
 involved with bringing B&C's first product (SD-
 to market about 35 years ago. I can tell you that
 thousands of customers have found B&C to be an
 invaluable asset in the crafting of an efficient,
 low-risk electrical system.
| Quote: | Please do not bother to respond unless you can offer a meaningful addition to this thread.
Angier Ames |
 I humbly suggest that the thread is irrelevant . . .
 If a system is designed for failure tolerance,
 then whether a part has a SERVICE LIFE of 10 hours
 or 10,000 hours is not a safety issue . . . it's
 a cost-of-ownership issue. This an other concepts
 in low-risk design are discussed in numberous articles
 on the website and in the book . . . which you can
 download for free if you so choose.
 The major point here is that NO part lasts forever.
 If ANY part is absolutely necessary for comfortable
 termination of your flight, then you'd better have
 a plan-b in place to deal with that failure.
 Bob . . .
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