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air.peter(at)googlemail.c
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 Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:30 am Post subject: Oil cooler connections |
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Hi friends,
I have as significant problem with my oil temps which I can not solve by my own.
So this is the background:
Lycoming O360 F1A6, in a Lancair 360 with external cooler connected.
Tried cooler in front of cylinder 2, cooler behind the firewall with air supplied from plenum, as well as air supplied direct from Nava duct.
In all cases temps were much to high with no significant changes.
So I went back to the connections I used to connect the cooler - where I need some support.
So I have an Olli filter adapter with the thermostatic screwed in from below (vernatherm). One of the docs I use says that I still need the oil cooler bypass plunger if I connect to oil cooler connection B (see attached document).
Return line from cooler is not in question I think.
So my question is - do I need the plunger - which is presently not installed - or what I am doing wrong? - and I mean there must be something real wrong.
One more observation - the oil seams to flow already through the cooler before getting the hot, I.e. warm. So I suspect the oil following either only through the cooler or only partial.
And yes - I will check the vernatherm to - but my questions refers to the plunger.
Thanks for you help
Peter Am 23.12.2015 8:24 nachm. schrieb "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net (carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net)>: | Quote: |
Removed from new Van's IO-390. Engine never run (other than the factor run). Includes eight Champion REB37E plugs, impulse coupler, gear and coupler standoff ring for the 4372 mag.
Total cost of buying from Aircraft Spruce would be $2800+ (including the two $150 core charges). Will sell as a package for $2200.
Carl
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carl.froehlich(at)verizon
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:06 am Post subject: Oil cooler connections |
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Peter,
First on our comment that “oil seams to flow through the cooler before getting hot”. This is exactly what should happen. When the oil is cold the cooler bypass valve is open allowing oil to bypass the cooler. That means oil is flowing though the cooler as well a through the bypass valve (see figure #1 of your attachment). This is why many need to reduce cooling air to the oil cooler in the winter to get oil temps above 180 degrees. Do not think of this bypass valve like you do a car thermostat. They are exactly opposite in function.
You did not say if this is a new problem or not.
Not sure about your filter adapter, perhaps a diagram would help. From what you said I think you have removed the original engine veratherm (oil cooler bypass valve). Is this correct? If so I offer this is one of the problems. This valve must close and shut off bypass oil when the engine oil is hot.
Of note, the one Lancair 360 I’m familiar with had a long history of heat problems. It got so bad the engine failed on run-up for takeoff. The guy who did the overhaul said he never saw heat damage like that. If you continue to have problems you might want to revisit some basics:
<![if !supportLists]>- <![endif]>The oil cooler is just too small. The one in the above Lancair was significantly undersized.
<![if !supportLists]>- <![endif]>While you have taken steps to improve air to the cooler, what did you do to improve air out of the cooler? The Lancair above cowl exit was way too small to handle the needed engine cooling air volume. Airflow requires a differential pressure drop across the cooler.
<![if !supportLists]>- <![endif]>Are CHTs in the 380 degree range in cruise or do they run hot as well?
Good luck,
Carl
From: owner-lycomingengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lycomingengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Sokolowski
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 4:26 AM
To: lycomingengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Oil cooler connections
Hi friends,
I have as significant problem with my oil temps which I can not solve by my own.
So this is the background:
Lycoming O360 F1A6, in a Lancair 360 with external cooler connected.
Tried cooler in front of cylinder 2, cooler behind the firewall with air supplied from plenum, as well as air supplied direct from Nava duct.
In all cases temps were much to high with no significant changes.
So I went back to the connections I used to connect the cooler - where I need some support.
So I have an Olli filter adapter with the thermostatic screwed in from below (vernatherm). One of the docs I use says that I still need the oil cooler bypass plunger if I connect to oil cooler connection B (see attached document).
Return line from cooler is not in question I think.
So my question is - do I need the plunger - which is presently not installed - or what I am doing wrong? - and I mean there must be something real wrong.
One more observation - the oil seams to flow already through the cooler before getting the hot, I.e. warm. So I suspect the oil following either only through the cooler or only partial.
And yes - I will check the vernatherm to - but my questions refers to the plunger.
Thanks for you help
Peter
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:37 pm Post subject: Oil cooler connections |
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Peter:
On Lancair's that I have worked on or seen do not have any issues with cooling. The plenum does a fantastic job of cooling. You say you have a Vernatherm installed with the Oil Filter Adapter. SO, why do you are you using another bypass valve?
YOU DO NOT USE TWO Vernatherms or ByPass Valves. Use ONLY the Vernatherm on the Oil Filter Housing.
The Vernatherm stays OPEN at low temps which circulates the oil within the engine. Once the oil temps are high enough (180 F/85 C) the Vernatherm CLOSES the bypass hole in the engine and NOW the oil flows to the Oil Cooler.
Simple and effective.
NOW! If you install a second oil bypass valve the oil temperature WILL NEVER get hot enough AT THE SECOND second valve. And the Valve will NEVER ALLOW oil flow, so the oil cooler will NEVER become part of the cooling system.
NOW! There are all sorts of questions, I am going to put my foot in my mouth and make an assumption: That ALL other items are working and are correct. Some of the questions are:
1 - Is the Oil Filter Vernatherm working correctly?
2 - Is the Vernatherm seat in the engine in good shape?
3 - Is the Sending Unit for the Oil Temp correct?
4 - Is the Gauge the Sending Unit is connected to accurate?
5 - What are the CHT's, are they with in range?
6 - What are the EGT's? Not that they matter that much, but are they above 1400 F? <-- This is MY personal limit. There are NO engine specs on Max or Min EGT.
7 - How big and how many vanes does the oil cooler have?
Location of the Oil Cooler is a little important and I personally prefer to have it right at the cowl inlet. BUT! Being that you have a plenum, and again I'm ASSUMING <-- Hate doing that. That it is well installed and the lower baffles between the cylinders are in good shape. SOooo, even if you have a firewall or baffle mounted oil cooler it is doing well. It should be doing well!
Let's go back to the document you attached:
Please indicate WHICH figure/configuration you have on your engine? The one on Figure 4 requires a plug to be installed. Failure to do so will recirculate the oil with in the engine and the oil will NOT reach the Oil Cooler. With the results of high oil temps.
OK, back to you Peter, let's hear what you find after reviewing the above notes.
Barry
On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 4:26 AM, Peter Sokolowski <air.peter(at)googlemail.com (air.peter(at)googlemail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi friends,
I have as significant problem with my oil temps which I can not solve by my own.
So this is the background:
Lycoming O360 F1A6, in a Lancair 360 with external cooler connected.
Tried cooler in front of cylinder 2, cooler behind the firewall with air supplied from plenum, as well as air supplied direct from Nava duct.
In all cases temps were much to high with no significant changes.
So I went back to the connections I used to connect the cooler - where I need some support.
So I have an Olli filter adapter with the thermostatic screwed in from below (vernatherm). One of the docs I use says that I still need the oil cooler bypass plunger if I connect to oil cooler connection B (see attached document).
Return line from cooler is not in question I think.
So my question is - do I need the plunger - which is presently not installed - or what I am doing wrong? - and I mean there must be something real wrong.
One more observation - the oil seams to flow already through the cooler before getting the hot, I.e. warm. So I suspect the oil following either only through the cooler or only partial.
And yes - I will check the vernatherm to - but my questions refers to the plunger.
Thanks for you help
Peter Am 23.12.2015 8:24 nachm. schrieb "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net (carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net)>: | Quote: |
Removed from new Van's IO-390. Engine never run (other than the factor run). Includes eight Champion REB37E plugs, impulse coupler, gear and coupler standoff ring for the 4372 mag.
Total cost of buying from Aircraft Spruce would be $2800+ (including the two $150 core charges). Will sell as a package for $2200.
Carl
|
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:37 pm Post subject: Oil cooler connections |
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Peter:
Haven't heard back from you, have you solved the problem?
Barry
On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 6:46 PM, Peter Sokolowski <air.peter(at)googlemail.com (air.peter(at)googlemail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Barry,
see below for answers.
Thanks in advance for further comments and efforts.
Peter
Von: owner-lycomingengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-lycomingengines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-lycomingengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-lycomingengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] Im Auftrag von FLYaDIVE
Gesendet: Montag, 28. März 2016 01:36
An: LYCOMING ENGINES
Betreff: Re: Oil cooler connections
Peter:
On Lancair's that I have worked on or seen do not have any issues with cooling. The plenum does a fantastic job of cooling. You say you have a Vernatherm installed with the Oil Filter Adapter. SO, why do you are you using another bypass valve?
Because it is written in the manual attached in my first mail – see page 5, pic. 4 (…Reinstall Plug… - oh just wait – just the plug…. – my fault.)
YOU DO NOT USE TWO Vernatherms or ByPass Valves. Use ONLY the Vernatherm on the Oil Filter Housing.
Yes – agree, in my case it was called „plunger” so I guessed it is not a Vernatherm – anyhow it is not installed.
The Vernatherm stays OPEN at low temps which circulates the oil within the engine. Once the oil temps are high enough (180 F/85 C) the Vernatherm CLOSES the bypass hole in the engine and NOW the oil flows to the Oil Cooler.
Simple and effective.
I agree – I will not open a discussion who is correct – you or Carl in the former mail – but would like to know which explanation is the correct one…
NOW! If you install a second oil bypass valve the oil temperature WILL NEVER get hot enough AT THE SECOND second valve. And the Valve will NEVER ALLOW oil flow, so the oil cooler will NEVER become part of the cooling system.
I agree and that is not the case in my engine.
NOW! There are all sorts of questions, I am going to put my foot in my mouth and make an assumption: That ALL other items are working and are correct.
I learned to question everything – especially in my case as I am running out of solutions…
Some of the questions are:
1 - Is the Oil Filter Vernatherm working correctly?
Next thing I will check – it was checked by the engine overhaul shop…. But will re-check
2 - Is the Vernatherm seat in the engine in good shape?
To be checked – see above….
3 - Is the Sending Unit for the Oil Temp correct?
I tested with an independent other instrument and corrdct at least +- 5-10 degree
4 - Is the Gauge the Sending Unit is connected to accurate?
Yep
5 - What are the CHT's, are they with in range?
They are well in the grange below 400
6 - What are the EGT's? Not that they matter that much, but are they above 1400 F? <-- This is MY personal limit. There are NO engine specs on Max or Min EGT.
They are fine as well. Some differences between cylinders – but not that much
7 - How big and how many vanes does the oil cooler have?
It is a 10 row one from Steward, I guess around 6 inch x 4 inch x 2 inch
Location of the Oil Cooler is a little important and I personally prefer to have it right at the cowl inlet. BUT! Being that you have a plenum, and again I'm ASSUMING <-- Hate doing that.
Yes it was in front of cylinder 2, well installed and sealed. The only thing I can think of is differential pressure is to small – but on others it is working… (would love to have it there…)
In the meantime trying all possible solutions (which were recommended to me) I installed it on the firewall with air supplied from the plenum during first try and with air from a dedicated Naca duct on a second trial. NO DIFFERENCE… on all three configurations !
That it is well installed and the lower baffles between the cylinders are in good shape.
Yep, baffles between 1&3 and 2&4 are the original Lycmongs and are really good.
SOooo, even if you have a firewall or baffle mounted oil cooler it is doing well. It should be doing well!
….no – it is – UNFORTUNATELY – not…that´s why I am writing here…L
Let's go back to the document you attached:
Please indicate WHICH figure/configuration you have on your engine?
It is he configuration on page 2, Fig. 2 – Oil Filter adapter with corresponding Type 2 Thermostatic By-Pass Valve installed. Type 1 Oil Cooler By-Pass is not installed – except the Plug as shown. Spring and Plunger not installed.
The one on Figure 4 requires a plug to be installed. Failure to do so will recirculate the oil with in the engine and the oil will NOT reach the Oil Cooler. With the results of high oil temps.
Wait – I do not understand. Without the Plug the oil will flow out and no circulation at all will happen. Or what do you mean with “plug”? I have connected the oil-cooler to “B” as shown in Figure 4 on page 5 – so have to seal “A” with a plug anyhow… ? It can not stay open…
BTW – is there a way to connect the oil-cooler line to “A” as well and to seal “B” with a plug ? What is the difference ?
OK, back to you Peter, let's hear what you find after reviewing the above notes.
Barry
On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 4:26 AM, Peter Sokolowski <air.peter(at)googlemail.com (air.peter(at)googlemail.com)> wrote:
Hi friends,
I have as significant problem with my oil temps which I can not solve by my own.
So this is the background:
Lycoming O360 F1A6, in a Lancair 360 with external cooler connected.
Tried cooler in front of cylinder 2, cooler behind the firewall with air supplied from plenum, as well as air supplied direct from Nava duct.
In all cases temps were much to high with no significant changes.
So I went back to the connections I used to connect the cooler - where I need some support.
So I have an Olli filter adapter with the thermostatic screwed in from below (vernatherm). One of the docs I use says that I still need the oil cooler bypass plunger if I connect to oil cooler connection B (see attached document).
Return line from cooler is not in question I think.
So my question is - do I need the plunger - which is presently not installed - or what I am doing wrong? - and I mean there must be something real wrong.
One more observation - the oil seams to flow already through the cooler before getting the hot, I.e. warm. So I suspect the oil following either only through the cooler or only partial.
And yes - I will check the vernatherm to - but my questions refers to the plunger.
Thanks for you help
Peter
Am 23.12.2015 8:24 nachm. schrieb "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net (carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net)>:
Removed from new Van's IO-390. Engine never run (other than the factor run). Includes eight Champion REB37E plugs, impulse coupler, gear and coupler standoff ring for the 4372 mag.
Total cost of buying from Aircraft Spruce would be $2800+ (including the two $150 core charges). Will sell as a package for $2200.
Carl
|
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air.peter(at)googlemail.c
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:57 pm Post subject: Oil cooler connections |
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Hi Barry,
Thanks for asking. No, problem still existing...
I have dismounted the filter adapter and the vernatherm. Pictures attached.
I tested the vernatherm and it works within spec.
So what else can be wrong?
Valve seat, oil pressure...?
I am running out of ideas,
I am thinking about separate NACA ducts for the cooler in and outlet...
But on other Lancair it is not necessary... So what else could be the issue?
Thanks in advance
Peter Am 04.04.2016 10:40 nachm. schrieb "FLYaDIVE" <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)>: | Quote: | Peter:
Haven't heard back from you, have you solved the problem?
Barry
On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 6:46 PM, Peter Sokolowski <air.peter(at)googlemail.com (air.peter(at)googlemail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Barry,
see below for answers.
Thanks in advance for further comments and efforts.
Peter
Von: owner-lycomingengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-lycomingengines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-lycomingengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-lycomingengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] Im Auftrag von FLYaDIVE
Gesendet: Montag, 28. März 2016 01:36
An: LYCOMING ENGINES
Betreff: Re: Oil cooler connections
Peter:
On Lancair's that I have worked on or seen do not have any issues with cooling. The plenum does a fantastic job of cooling. You say you have a Vernatherm installed with the Oil Filter Adapter. SO, why do you are you using another bypass valve?
Because it is written in the manual attached in my first mail – see page 5, pic. 4 (…Reinstall Plug… - oh just wait – just the plug…. – my fault.)
YOU DO NOT USE TWO Vernatherms or ByPass Valves. Use ONLY the Vernatherm on the Oil Filter Housing.
Yes – agree, in my case it was called „plunger” so I guessed it is not a Vernatherm – anyhow it is not installed.
The Vernatherm stays OPEN at low temps which circulates the oil within the engine. Once the oil temps are high enough (180 F/85 C) the Vernatherm CLOSES the bypass hole in the engine and NOW the oil flows to the Oil Cooler.
Simple and effective.
I agree – I will not open a discussion who is correct – you or Carl in the former mail – but would like to know which explanation is the correct one…
NOW! If you install a second oil bypass valve the oil temperature WILL NEVER get hot enough AT THE SECOND second valve. And the Valve will NEVER ALLOW oil flow, so the oil cooler will NEVER become part of the cooling system.
I agree and that is not the case in my engine.
NOW! There are all sorts of questions, I am going to put my foot in my mouth and make an assumption: That ALL other items are working and are correct.
I learned to question everything – especially in my case as I am running out of solutions…
Some of the questions are:
1 - Is the Oil Filter Vernatherm working correctly?
Next thing I will check – it was checked by the engine overhaul shop…. But will re-check
2 - Is the Vernatherm seat in the engine in good shape?
To be checked – see above….
3 - Is the Sending Unit for the Oil Temp correct?
I tested with an independent other instrument and corrdct at least +- 5-10 degree
4 - Is the Gauge the Sending Unit is connected to accurate?
Yep
5 - What are the CHT's, are they with in range?
They are well in the grange below 400
6 - What are the EGT's? Not that they matter that much, but are they above 1400 F? <-- This is MY personal limit. There are NO engine specs on Max or Min EGT.
They are fine as well. Some differences between cylinders – but not that much
7 - How big and how many vanes does the oil cooler have?
It is a 10 row one from Steward, I guess around 6 inch x 4 inch x 2 inch
Location of the Oil Cooler is a little important and I personally prefer to have it right at the cowl inlet. BUT! Being that you have a plenum, and again I'm ASSUMING <-- Hate doing that.
Yes it was in front of cylinder 2, well installed and sealed. The only thing I can think of is differential pressure is to small – but on others it is working… (would love to have it there…)
In the meantime trying all possible solutions (which were recommended to me) I installed it on the firewall with air supplied from the plenum during first try and with air from a dedicated Naca duct on a second trial. NO DIFFERENCE… on all three configurations !
That it is well installed and the lower baffles between the cylinders are in good shape.
Yep, baffles between 1&3 and 2&4 are the original Lycmongs and are really good.
SOooo, even if you have a firewall or baffle mounted oil cooler it is doing well. It should be doing well!
….no – it is – UNFORTUNATELY – not…that´s why I am writing here…L
Let's go back to the document you attached:
Please indicate WHICH figure/configuration you have on your engine?
It is he configuration on page 2, Fig. 2 – Oil Filter adapter with corresponding Type 2 Thermostatic By-Pass Valve installed. Type 1 Oil Cooler By-Pass is not installed – except the Plug as shown. Spring and Plunger not installed.
The one on Figure 4 requires a plug to be installed. Failure to do so will recirculate the oil with in the engine and the oil will NOT reach the Oil Cooler. With the results of high oil temps.
Wait – I do not understand. Without the Plug the oil will flow out and no circulation at all will happen. Or what do you mean with “plug”? I have connected the oil-cooler to “B” as shown in Figure 4 on page 5 – so have to seal “A” with a plug anyhow… ? It can not stay open…
BTW – is there a way to connect the oil-cooler line to “A” as well and to seal “B” with a plug ? What is the difference ?
OK, back to you Peter, let's hear what you find after reviewing the above notes.
Barry
On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 4:26 AM, Peter Sokolowski <air.peter(at)googlemail.com (air.peter(at)googlemail.com)> wrote:
Hi friends,
I have as significant problem with my oil temps which I can not solve by my own.
So this is the background:
Lycoming O360 F1A6, in a Lancair 360 with external cooler connected.
Tried cooler in front of cylinder 2, cooler behind the firewall with air supplied from plenum, as well as air supplied direct from Nava duct.
In all cases temps were much to high with no significant changes.
So I went back to the connections I used to connect the cooler - where I need some support.
So I have an Olli filter adapter with the thermostatic screwed in from below (vernatherm). One of the docs I use says that I still need the oil cooler bypass plunger if I connect to oil cooler connection B (see attached document).
Return line from cooler is not in question I think.
So my question is - do I need the plunger - which is presently not installed - or what I am doing wrong? - and I mean there must be something real wrong.
One more observation - the oil seams to flow already through the cooler before getting the hot, I.e. warm. So I suspect the oil following either only through the cooler or only partial.
And yes - I will check the vernatherm to - but my questions refers to the plunger.
Thanks for you help
Peter
Am 23.12.2015 8:24 nachm. schrieb "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net (carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net)>:
Removed from new Van's IO-390. Engine never run (other than the factor run). Includes eight Champion REB37E plugs, impulse coupler, gear and coupler standoff ring for the 4372 mag.
Total cost of buying from Aircraft Spruce would be $2800+ (including the two $150 core charges). Will sell as a package for $2200.
Carl
|
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carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:32 pm Post subject: Oil cooler connections |
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As you have eliminated everything else, you are left with the oil cooler being just too small.
Replace the cooler with an Airflow Systems 2006X cooler: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/xseriesOilCooler.php
Carl
[quote] On Apr 4, 2016, at 4:56 PM, Peter Sokolowski <air.peter(at)googlemail.com> wrote:
Hi Barry,
Thanks for asking. No, problem still existing...
I have dismounted the filter adapter and the vernatherm. Pictures attached
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speedy11
Joined: 29 Jun 2015
Posts: 62
Location: Port Orange, FL
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:22 am Post subject: Oil cooler connections |
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Peter,
I can tell you about my setup and you can take it for what it is worth.
I have a RV, not a Lancair, but the concept is the same.
My oil cooler is so efficient it is difficult to get above 185 in the summer in Florida!
The key is to have a 12 row Warner cooler that is supplied with plenty of air and an expansion chamber at the face of the cooler. Mine is remotely mounted on the firewall and it is supplied with a 4.5 inch inner diameter fiberglass duct that "aerodynamically" enlarges at the cooler face. It is important to slow down the high speed air as it reaches the cooler face. That action increases the air pressure on the face of the cooler. Higher pressure on one side of the cooler and lower pressure on the other side is critical for proper cooling. Your situation may be caused because the pressure is nearly equal on both sides of the cooler.
I did not use Scat for ducting although it is a very suitable choice. For Scat/Skeet duct you will need at least 4 inch - probably 5 inch is better. You can always design a blocking plate (even adjustable from the cockpit) if you are in cold climate and need to increase the temp.
I made my duct of fiberglass using a PVC sewer drain as the mold. I split it in the middle and added baffle material to seal the cut and allow engine movement in relation to the rigid oil cooler mount.
Thus far, I have zero problems with cooling - even when racing at Reno. In fact, I could probably gain a half knot in the races by reducing the amount of oil cooler air. But ... I like not having to worry about oil temp. That is one less thing to worry about.
I have photos of my installation if you are interested in seeing them. I will be home Thu night and could email them. Going to Sun n Fun on Friday - if I have finished my exit air fairings and reinstalled the exhaust system.
Regards,
Stan Sutterfield
World's Fastest RV-8A
Daytona Beach, FL
| Quote: | I have dismounted the filter adapter and the vernatherm. Pictures attached.
I tested the vernatherm and it works within spec.
So what else can be wrong?
Valve seat, oil pressure...?
I am running out of ideas,
I am thinking about separate NACA ducts for the cooler in and outlet...
But on other Lancair it is not necessary... So what else could be the issue
?
Thanks in advance
Peter |
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