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racerjerry
Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 202
Location: Deer Park, NY
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 Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:52 am Post subject: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report |
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Hi Bill,
I hope that I can clear some things up for you.
My Kolb Firestar plans are also dated 1993. This date is when you could no longer purchase a Firestar I and only the Firestar II was available from the factory. The 1993 plans reprint was made to cover both Firestar I & II. Actually, page 1 is still dated Dec. 1991 and was reused, but MOST other pages had been revised in 1993.
Do you have page 24 with copyright date of Dec. 1993, Rev 1? If not, you should have it. Aileron construction is shown on pages 10A & 10B. Since the aileron counterbalance was added at a later date, it was shown separately, on page 24. You may have missed this detail or may be missing the page entirely.
Forgive me, but I must also caution you about unintended consequences of your proposed aileron control modification. Where are you going to attach your pulley brackets? You need to be careful where you place extra holes in the wing spar and also be wary of any concentration of stress.
With the addition of an aileron counterbalance, the Kolb aileron controls are trouble free and no real benefit will come from their modification.
Now after that sermon, maybe it will make you feel better knowing that I made a "few" changes myself, including adding a flaperon control system taken from the Kolb Firefly. Good luck, my friend.
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Jerry King |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:23 am Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report |
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Good advice, Jerry K.
Thanks for the info. Clears up a few things for me.
Attached is a photo from one of our Monument Valley Flyins. Glad we had the
opportunity to do those.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
--
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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williamtsullivan(at)att.n
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 6:01 am Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report |
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Bill- Until recently, I had an original 5 rib wing Firestar with a 447. It was so old there wasn't a serial number, so a guess would be about 1986. It had "barn door ailerons", and had never had counterweights. The only noticeable thing was a loose rod end.
As far as building a flying machine, build it to the plans. The counterweight is not a critical modification. If you need it, they are easy to add later. Spend your mental energy on the cockpit, making it fit you.
Kolbs are easy to modify, work on, and fly. John Hauck is probably the most experienced pilot/builder on the List. Others have web sites that are worthwhile studying. Jack Hart's "Firefly Slide Show" is a valuable resource.
Enjoy
Bill Sullivan
Windsor Locks, Ct.
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 6/3/16, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Subject: RE: Kolb Firestar Progress report
My plans DO NOT show any counterweight arm on the one
drawing of the aileron. I looked at it twice or three times
to make sure.
So if Helen at the factory tells me that I have the current
plans, and those plans do not show a critical safety upgrade
... where am I going wrong?
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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 6:45 am Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report |
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Thank you Jerry, I will look to see if I have that page in the plans. And thank you for explaining the plan dates and progression!
For whatever it is worth, falling on deaf ears or not, NONE of the modifications or customized features that I have EVER even thought about reduce the strength or safety of the aircraft. Every one of them is intended to mak,e something more robust, without adding a significant amount of weight.
The gusset plates add stiffness and "tear-out" resistance to the control surfaces. They are shown on the plans as an optional way to build it, near the back of the plan set. They are Homer approved. They make the controls a little stronger.
The raked wingtip shape is shown to improve low speed safety and delay "tip stall" on numerous aircraft. But they also REDUCE the wing area at the wingtip, which REDUCES the bending loads on the spars and REDUCES the tension loads on the strut.
The hinge modifications that started this whole problem were to make the airplane STRONGER and MORE resistant to pulling rivets out. The original hinge method may be "just fine" but it allows movement and bending in an area that should be stiffer. Doing the "X pattern" will eliminate that movement or bending, by simply bracing the hinge to keep it in the same place. SAFER, not risky-er.
Moving the aileron counterbalance toward the center of the aileron REDUCES the possibility of the aileron acting like a big spring and twisting back and forth leading to flutter. It ADDS a little safety margin, it makes me a smaller risk-taker not a bigger risk-taker.
I'm really sorry again that I have apparently made myself look like an uneducated hayseed who wants to duct tape the airplane together and bolt a Chevy V8 onto the fuselage, but that is not the case. The facts do not support pinning that tail on this donkey.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 6/4/16, racerjerry <gnking2(at)verizon.net> wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Saturday, June 4, 2016, 3:52 AM
"racerjerry" <gnking2(at)verizon.net>
Hi Bill,
I hope that I can clear some things up for you.
My Kolb Firestar plans are also dated 1993. This date
is when you could no longer purchase a Firestar I and only
the Firestar II was available from the factory. The
1993 plans reprint was made to cover both Firestar I &
II. Actually, page 1 is still dated Dec. 1991 and was
reused, but MOST other pages had been revised in 1993.
Do you have page 24 with copyright date of Dec. 1993, Rev
1? If not, you should have it. Aileron
construction is shown on pages 10A & 10B.
Since the aileron counterbalance was added at a later date,
it was shown separately, on page 24. You may have
missed this detail or may be missing the page entirely.
Forgive me, but I must also caution you about unintended
consequences of your proposed aileron control
modification. Where are you going to attach your
pulley brackets? You need to be careful where you
place extra holes in the wing spar and also be wary of any
concentration of stress.
With the addition of an aileron counterbalance, the Kolb
aileron controls are trouble free and no real benefit will
come from their modification.
Now after that sermon, maybe it will make you feel better
knowing that I made a "few" changes myself, including adding
a flaperon control system taken from the Kolb Firefly.
Good luck, my friend.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456841#456841
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:15 am Post subject: Kolb Firestar Progress report |
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To each his own.
Live and let live.
Some folks may like what Bill B is doing, some of us may not. It doesn't matter.
To be a Kolb List member has nothing to do with acceptance or rejection of a member's ideas.
Build your FS the way you want to. I'll build mine the way I want to.
If you can build your FS better than my MKIII, have at it. I am constantly trying to learn from others accomplishments and their failures.
I included another photo from my flight to the Rock House near Burns Junction, OR, September 2014. I had just completed this 24.0 flight to celebrate my 75th year, and to enjoy the company of my Kolb friends that annually gather there. What a crew!
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2016 9:42 AM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report
Thank you Jerry, I will look to see if I have that page in the plans. And thank you for explaining the plan dates and progression!
For whatever it is worth, falling on deaf ears or not, NONE of the modifications or customized features that I have EVER even thought about reduce the strength or safety of the aircraft. Every one of them is intended to mak,e something more robust, without adding a significant amount of weight.
The gusset plates add stiffness and "tear-out" resistance to the control surfaces. They are shown on the plans as an optional way to build it, near the back of the plan set. They are Homer approved. They make the controls a little stronger.
The raked wingtip shape is shown to improve low speed safety and delay "tip stall" on numerous aircraft. But they also REDUCE the wing area at the wingtip, which REDUCES the bending loads on the spars and REDUCES the tension loads on the strut.
The hinge modifications that started this whole problem were to make the airplane STRONGER and MORE resistant to pulling rivets out. The original hinge method may be "just fine" but it allows movement and bending in an area that should be stiffer. Doing the "X pattern" will eliminate that movement or bending, by simply bracing the hinge to keep it in the same place. SAFER, not risky-er.
Moving the aileron counterbalance toward the center of the aileron REDUCES the possibility of the aileron acting like a big spring and twisting back and forth leading to flutter. It ADDS a little safety margin, it makes me a smaller risk-taker not a bigger risk-taker.
I'm really sorry again that I have apparently made myself look like an uneducated hayseed who wants to duct tape the airplane together and bolt a Chevy V8 onto the fuselage, but that is not the case. The facts do not support pinning that tail on this donkey.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 6/4/16, racerjerry <gnking2(at)verizon.net> wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Saturday, June 4, 2016, 3:52 AM
"racerjerry" <gnking2(at)verizon.net>
Hi Bill,
I hope that I can clear some things up for you.
My Kolb Firestar plans are also dated 1993. This date is when you could no longer purchase a Firestar I and only the Firestar II was available from the factory. The
1993 plans reprint was made to cover both Firestar I & II. Actually, page 1 is still dated Dec. 1991 and was reused, but MOST other pages had been revised in 1993.
Do you have page 24 with copyright date of Dec. 1993, Rev 1? If not, you should have it. Aileron construction is shown on pages 10A & 10B. Since the aileron counterbalance was added at a later date, it was shown separately, on page 24. You may have missed this detail or may be missing the page entirely.
Forgive me, but I must also caution you about unintended consequences of your proposed aileron control modification. Where are you going to attach your pulley brackets? You need to be careful where you place extra holes in the wing spar and also be wary of any concentration of stress.
With the addition of an aileron counterbalance, the Kolb aileron controls are trouble free and no real benefit will come from their modification.
Now after that sermon, maybe it will make you feel better knowing that I made a "few" changes myself, including adding a flaperon control system taken from the Kolb Firefly. Good luck, my friend.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456841#456841
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
415.84 KB |
| Viewed: |
4199 Time(s) |
|
_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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