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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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 Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:49 pm Post subject: AOA |
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How would one compute the speed range of my mkIII and a Cessna 172? and
compare the results?
Never flown with an AOA. I think it would be interesting to play with to
learn what it does and how it would improve me and my MKIII's flying.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:44 am Post subject: AOA |
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I've got maybe 5 hrs in a 172, & none in a Kolb, so maybe you can help.
My RV-4 stalls in the low 50's (mph) and best rate of climb is actually
a rather wide range instead of a single number; from around 110 mph up
to around 130 mph, due to the fixed pitch prop & the low aspect ratio
'hershey bar' wing. (Drag goes up rather quickly as the plane slows down
due to induced drag, & the highly pitched cruise prop loses efficiency
at lower airspeeds and limits engine power at lower rpm so best rate is
almost the same from 110 to 130.) Best angle of climb is around 85 mph.
Point is, the actual mph spread between best rate & stall is around 55
mph. The spread between best angle and stall is around 30 mph.
What are the spreads for your Kolb? If the actual mph spreads are closer
(percentages might be the same, or even better; I don't know), then an
accurate AOA might be *more* useful in a Kolb than something like an RV,
with large speed spreads.
Charlie
On 1/20/2016 3:48 PM, John Hauck wrote:
[quote]
How would one compute the speed range of my mkIII and a Cessna 172? and
compare the results?
Never flown with an AOA. I think it would be interesting to play with to
learn what it does and how it would improve me and my MKIII's flying.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:55 am Post subject: AOA |
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Stall on my MKIII is 30 mph (power off in ground effect), about 33 (out of
ground effect) best angle 50 mph, best rate 60 with a spread of 17/37 mph.
Pretty close.
On a good day it will climb at or a tad below stall speed. This is a unique
capability of all models of Kolb aircraft. Full throttle, stick back to the
stop, they will continue to climb, prop going in and out of cavitation,
aircraft doing a shallow porpoise maneuver, nose feels like it is straight
up. Must sound strange to those on the ground.
Kolbs are different animals.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama - Cold, wet, gray at hauck's holler, but not nearly as bad as
my friends further north.
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: AOA |
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Earlier this spring the topic of AOA indicators was kicked around for a while and I ordered some items that I thought could be used to make one. Finally got around to cobbing together a workbench version just to see what it did. It works great on the bench, but in practice I don't think it would be something you would want.
1st picture shows the gas tank sending unit with a vane out behind it. Level flight attitude, and the LED fuel gauge below it, upside down. Lots of bars in the green, then a yellow one and finally a red one up top.
The next several pictures show a gradually increasing angle of attack, some of the green bars are out then a very high angle of attack, all you see is the yellow and red bars.
Finally would be stalled, all you see is the red bar. Obviously you would need a lot of trial and error fiddling to adjust the linkage between the vane and the sender to correlate with the actual onset of the stall, but I think it could be made to work.
The problem is in the gauge, it responds very slowly to changes from the sender. The LED's turn off and on at 2 or 3 second intervals. Move the vane abruptly and start counting: "One thousand one, one thousand two" - the first LED goes out. "One thousand three, one thousand four." - the 2nd LED goes out. And so on. In practice it is just too slow.
But it was interesting to fool around with.
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_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
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lcottrell
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:43 pm Post subject: AOA |
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I was also "messing" with the AOA. I ended up with a red 12 inch piece of Yarn and a target sticker on the side of my wind screen. When the yarn reaches the sticker, you are going to be falling out of the air. Real simple, costs nothing, and is visible while flying.
LarryÂ
On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)>
Earlier this spring the topic of AOA indicators was kicked around for a while and I ordered some items that I thought could be used to make one. Finally got around to cobbing together a workbench version just to see what it did. It works great on the bench, but in practice I don't think it would be something you would want.
1st picture shows the gas tank sending unit with a vane out behind it. Level flight attitude, and the LED fuel gauge below it, upside down. Lots of bars in the green, then a yellow one and finally a red one up top.
The next several pictures show a gradually increasing angle of attack, some of the green bars are out then a very high angle of attack, all you see is the yellow and red bars.
Finally would be stalled, all you see is the red bar. Obviously you would need a lot of trial and error fiddling to adjust the linkage between the vane and the sender to correlate with the actual onset of the stall, but I think it could be made to work.
The problem is in the gauge, it responds very slowly to changes from the sender. The LED's turn off and on at 2 or 3 second intervals. Move the vane abruptly and start counting: "One thousand one, one thousand two" - the first LED goes out. "One thousand three, one thousand four."Â - the 2nd LED goes out. And so on. In practice it is just too slow.
But it was interesting to fool around with.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:05 pm Post subject: AOA |
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On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 4:08 PM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)>
Earlier this spring the topic of AOA indicators was kicked around for a while and I ordered some items that I thought could be used to make one. Finally got around to cobbing together a workbench version just to see what it did. It works great on the bench, but in practice I don't think it would be something you would want.
1st picture shows the gas tank sending unit with a vane out behind it. Level flight attitude, and the LED fuel gauge below it, upside down. Lots of bars in the green, then a yellow one and finally a red one up top.
The next several pictures show a gradually increasing angle of attack, some of the green bars are out then a very high angle of attack, all you see is the yellow and red bars.
Finally would be stalled, all you see is the red bar. Obviously you would need a lot of trial and error fiddling to adjust the linkage between the vane and the sender to correlate with the actual onset of the stall, but I think it could be made to work.
The problem is in the gauge, it responds very slowly to changes from the sender. The LED's turn off and on at 2 or 3 second intervals. Move the vane abruptly and start counting: "One thousand one, one thousand two" - the first LED goes out. "One thousand three, one thousand four."Â - the 2nd LED goes out. And so on. In practice it is just too slow.
But it was interesting to fool around with.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
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Ist thought: you used a fuel gauge. Any fuel gauge that's worth a flip as a fuel gauge will display the exact behavior you saw. If you're bouncing around in rough air (or more likely, a rough road) you don't want the gauge alternately reading empty & full as you bounce across the potholes and sweep around corners.
There's almost certainly an RC (resistor/capacitor) network inside the case to average out the variations in voltage from the sender (which would normally be a float-controlled resistor in your tank). It's likely that the same LED ladder display can be found in power indicating meters for stereo and/or public address amplifiers. The basic indicator is *much* faster than your eye can follow.
Try again with an LED bar graph meter.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=led+bar+graph&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xled+bar+graph+meter.TRS1&_nkw=led+bar+graph+meter&_sacat=0
I think you'll be much more impressed.
Charlie
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: AOA |
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Thank you Charlie!
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_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:51 pm Post subject: AOA |
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On 6/15/2016 7:15 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
| Quote: |
Thank you Charlie!
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Well, shucks. Now you've got me hoping I was right. 
|
Seriously, the display itself is easily capable of responding instantly,
so the mfgr must have done something to make it less sensitive to abrupt
changes.
You should be able to find a more suitable meter.
Charlie
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: AOA |
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| ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote: | On 6/15/2016 7:15 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
| Quote: |
Thank you Charlie!
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Well, shucks. Now you've got me hoping I was right.
|
Seriously, the display itself is easily capable of responding instantly,
so the mfgr must have done something to make it less sensitive to abrupt
changes.
You should be able to find a more suitable meter.
Charlie |
Would something like this be suitable?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10seg-LED-Bargraph-Module-usded-in-car-Battery-Tester-display-DC-value-/162086949379?hash=item25bd229203:g:IQwAAOSwLzdWSpvV
Not being electronics savvy myself, I need to have lots of advice, and be able to just solder and glue...
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Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:50 pm Post subject: AOA |
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On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 4:49 PM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)>
ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:
> On 6/15/2016 7:15 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Â Thank you Charlie!
> >
> >Â --------
> >Â Richard Pike
> >Â Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> >Â Kingsport, TN 3TN0
> > Well, shucks. Now you've got me hoping I was right.
> >
>
>
> Seriously, the display itself is easily capable of responding instantly,
> so the mfgr must have done something to make it less sensitive to abrupt
> changes.
>
> You should be able to find a more suitable meter.
>
> Charlie
Would something like this be suitable?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10seg-LED-Bargraph-Module-usded-in-car-Battery-Tester-display-DC-value-/162086949379?hash=item25bd229203:g:IQwAAOSwLzdWSpvV
Not being electronics savvy myself, I need to have lots of advice, and be able to just solder and glue...
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
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Looks like a good candidate. Just be sure you order the right one for your power supply & potentiometer. If you're using 12v (aircraft) power, be sure to order the 12v version, and if you're supplying 12 v to the pot (sensor), get the 0-10v range model.
If you look further for different models, you probably need to avoid the ones that say they use an LM3915 driver IC. That IC has a 'logarithmic' characteristic, intended to directly display power (ex: audio amplifier) & will likely throw you a curve when trying to calibrate it.Â
Charlie
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byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:41 pm Post subject: AOA |
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the pot on an AOA meter is only a small part of a turn,,,  full travel on the display should be 2 to 3 volt change On Jun 15, 2016 8:53 PM, "Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote: | Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>
On 6/15/2016 7:15 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)>
Thank you Charlie!
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
|
Well, shucks. Now you've got me hoping I was right.
Seriously, the display itself is easily capable of responding instantly, so the mfgr must have done something to make it less sensitive to abrupt changes.
You should be able to find a more suitable meter.
Charlie
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Mike Welch
Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 272
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:26 pm Post subject: AOA |
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Kolb listers,
It seems to me if you wanted the "weathervane" style of an AOA you'd get better results from the Hall Effect AOA circuit.
Anyway, you could use one of these, and coupled to a LED display circuit you'd be in bidness.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221554609837?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&fromMakeTrack=true
Here is the final product that I'm talking about. BTW, If you're not familiar with the Hall Effect circuitry you ought to check it out. This looks like a super fun project to build!
http://www.barkeraircraft.com/files/AOA_rDisplay.pdf
Mike Welch
Moving back to Utah in one week.
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