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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:48 pm    Post subject: covering supplier? Reply with quote

Anyone using a covering supplier that's better (cheaper, better service, etc) than A/C Spruce?

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mojavjoe



Joined: 23 Dec 2013
Posts: 64

PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:16 pm    Post subject: covering supplier? Reply with quote

Charlie

Use the covering that A/C Spruce refers to as peel ply.

Joe

From: "Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
To: "kolb-list" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 7:45:01 PM
Subject: covering supplier?
Anyone using a covering supplier that's better (cheaper, better service, etc) than A/C Spruce?


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herbgh(at)nctc.com
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:11 pm    Post subject: covering supplier? Reply with quote

Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb
On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
Quote:
Anyone using a covering supplier that's better (cheaper, better
service, etc) than A/C Spruce?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:16 pm    Post subject: covering supplier? Reply with quote

Haven't checked in a while..but think A/C spruce can ship Poly Fiber
chemicals with no haz material charge...? Herb
On 04/10/2017 09:10 PM, Hoppy wrote:
Quote:


Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb
On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
> Anyone using a covering supplier that's better (cheaper, better
> service, etc) than A/C Spruce?




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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject: covering supplier? Reply with quote

Thanks; I've heard of using regular polyester fabric. But at roughly a
$3 price delta, it's only a $40 spread for all the fabric I'll need.

On 4/10/2017 9:10 PM, Hoppy wrote:
Quote:


Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb
On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
> Anyone using a covering supplier that's better (cheaper, better
> service, etc) than A/C Spruce?



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:51 pm    Post subject: covering supplier? Reply with quote

Sounds like Spruce is the go-to place, then.

My fabric guy (yeah, I've got a fabric guy) is willing to try Stewart
System glue, so I think we'll give that a shot. That plus Wienerdog
Aero's Latex painting technique, & we should be good to go. Smile

Charlie

On 4/10/2017 9:15 PM, Hoppy wrote:
Quote:


Haven't checked in a while..but think A/C spruce can ship Poly Fiber
chemicals with no haz material charge...? Herb
On 04/10/2017 09:10 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>
>
> Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb
> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>> Anyone using a covering supplier that's better (cheaper, better
>> service, etc) than A/C Spruce?
>


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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:24 pm    Post subject: covering supplier? Reply with quote

Do a little research, the latex may be heavier than some other systems.

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 4/10/17, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: covering supplier?
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Monday, April 10, 2017, 8:53 PM


England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>

Sounds like Spruce is the go-to place,
then.

My fabric guy (yeah, I've got a fabric
guy) is willing to try Stewart
System glue, so I think we'll give that
a shot. That plus Wienerdog
Aero's Latex painting technique, &
we should be good to go. Smile

Charlie

On 4/10/2017 9:15 PM, Hoppy wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by: Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com>
>
> Haven't checked in a while..but
think A/C spruce can ship Poly Fiber
> chemicals with no haz material
charge...? Herb
>
>
> On 04/10/2017 09:10 PM, Hoppy
wrote:
>> --> Kolb-List message
posted by: Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com>
>>
>> Yep..Peel ply... around 5
bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb
>>
>>
>> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM,
Charlie England wrote:
>>> Anyone using a covering
supplier that's better (cheaper, better
>>> service, etc) than A/C
Spruce?
>>


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:48 am    Post subject: covering supplier? Reply with quote

This is the reference I've used; he supplies links to other research that he did.http://wienerdogaero.com/Latex.php
I'm not paranoid about occasional use of most chemicals, but something cleaner/safer will work just as well, and save a bit of money at the same time, I'll take it. But don't expect mine to look like the results he gets. Smile
Charlie

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 12:20 AM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

Do a little research, the latex may be heavier than some other systems.

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 4/10/17, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 Subject: Re: covering supplier?
 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
 Date: Monday, April 10, 2017, 8:53 PM

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie
 England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>

 Sounds like Spruce is the go-to place,
 then.

 My fabric guy (yeah, I've got a fabric
 guy) is willing to try Stewart
 System glue, so I think we'll give that
 a shot. That plus Wienerdog
 Aero's Latex painting technique, &
 we should be good to go. Smile

 Charlie

 On 4/10/2017 9:15 PM, Hoppy wrote:
 > --> Kolb-List message posted
 by: Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com (herbgh(at)nctc.com)>
 >
 > Haven't checked in a while..but
 think A/C spruce can ship Poly Fiber
 > chemicals with no haz material
 charge...? Herb
 >
 >
 > On 04/10/2017 09:10 PM, Hoppy
 wrote:
 >> --> Kolb-List message
 posted by: Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com (herbgh(at)nctc.com)>
 >>
 >> Yep..Peel ply... around 5
 bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb
 >>
 >>
 >> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM,
 Charlie England wrote:
 >>> Anyone using a covering
 supplier that's better (cheaper, better
 >>> service, etc) than A/C
 Spruce?
 >>




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mojavjoe



Joined: 23 Dec 2013
Posts: 64

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:27 am    Post subject: covering supplier? Reply with quote

Charlie

Another tip, buy Fastbond NF Green on Amazon, it's the same adhesive as Stewart at half the price

Joe

From: "Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
To: "kolb-list" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 11:53:23 PM
Subject: Re: covering supplier?
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Sounds like Spruce is the go-to place, then.
My fabric guy (yeah, I've got a fabric guy) is willing to try Stewart
System glue, so I think we'll give that a shot. That plus Wienerdog
Aero's Latex painting technique, & we should be good to go. Smile
Charlie
On 4/10/2017 9:15 PM, Hoppy wrote:
Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com>

Haven't checked in a while..but think A/C spruce can ship Poly Fiber
chemicals with no haz material charge...? Herb
On 04/10/2017 09:10 PM, Hoppy wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com>
>
> Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb
> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>> Anyone using a covering supplier that's better (cheaper, better
>> service, etc) than A/C Spruce?
>

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:10 am    Post subject: covering supplier? Reply with quote

Joe
  Wondering if Fastbond would work with the Acetone,MEK based Poly Fiber products?  I still have a quart of Poly Tac...but might use it  for my next project...Herb

On 04/11/2017 07:27 AM, mojavjoe(at)comcast.net (mojavjoe(at)comcast.net) wrote:

Quote:
Charlie



Another tip, buy Fastbond NF Green on Amazon, it's the same adhesive as Stewart at half the price



Joe



From: "Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)
To: "kolb-list" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com> (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 11:53:23 PM
Subject: Re: covering supplier?


--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)


Sounds like Spruce is the go-to place, then.


My fabric guy (yeah, I've got a fabric guy) is willing to try Stewart
System glue, so I think we'll give that a shot. That plus Wienerdog
Aero's Latex painting technique, & we should be good to go. Smile


Charlie


On 4/10/2017 9:15 PM, Hoppy wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com> (herbgh(at)nctc.com)
>
> Haven't checked in a while..but think A/C spruce can ship Poly Fiber
> chemicals with no haz material charge...? Herb
>
>
> On 04/10/2017 09:10 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com> (herbgh(at)nctc.com)
>>
>> Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb
>>
>>
>> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>>> Anyone using a covering supplier that's better (cheaper, better
>>> service, etc) than A/C Spruce?
>>



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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:24 am    Post subject: covering supplier? Reply with quote

On Tue, 4/11/17, <mojavjoe(at)comcast.net> wrote:
"Fastbond NF Green -- half the price"

YEAH, baby Smile


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:27 am    Post subject: covering supplier? Reply with quote

What about this price... Smile

https://www.evroberts.com/3m-24/fastbond-30-nf-green-1120/

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 4/11/17, <mojavjoe(at)comcast.net> wrote:

Subject: Re: covering supplier?
To: "kolb-list" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Tuesday, April 11, 2017, 5:27 AM

Charlie

Another tip, buy Fastbond NF Green on
Amazon, it's the same adhesive as Stewart at half
the price

Joe

From:
"Charlie England"
<ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
To: "kolb-list"
<kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 11:53:23 PM
Subject: Re: covering supplier?


<ceengland7(at)gmail.com>

Sounds like Spruce is the go-to place, then.

My fabric guy (yeah, I've got a fabric guy) is
willing to try Stewart
System glue, so I think we'll give that a shot. That
plus Wienerdog
Aero's Latex painting technique, & we should be good
to go. Smile

Charlie

On 4/10/2017 9:15 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>
<herbgh(at)nctc.com>
>
> Haven't checked in a while..but think A/C spruce
can ship Poly Fiber
> chemicals with no haz material charge...? Herb
>
>
> On 04/10/2017 09:10 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>>
<herbgh(at)nctc.com>
>>
>> Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or
2.6. Herb
>>
>>
>> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>>> Anyone using a covering supplier that's
better (cheaper, better
>>> service, etc) than A/C Spruce?
>>


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirbsp;
             -Matt
Dralle, List Adm=========


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:48 am    Post subject: covering supplier? Reply with quote

Guess we need to get together on a quantity buy...Smile I will take a
quart with free shipping....Smile Herb
On 04/11/2017 09:23 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
Quote:


What about this price... Smile

https://www.evroberts.com/3m-24/fastbond-30-nf-green-1120/

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 4/11/17, <mojavjoe(at)comcast.net> wrote:

Subject: Re: covering supplier?
To: "kolb-list" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Tuesday, April 11, 2017, 5:27 AM

Charlie

Another tip, buy Fastbond NF Green on
Amazon, it's the same adhesive as Stewart at half
the price

Joe

From:
"Charlie England"
<ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
To: "kolb-list"
<kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 11:53:23 PM
Subject: Re: covering supplier?


<ceengland7(at)gmail.com>

Sounds like Spruce is the go-to place, then.

My fabric guy (yeah, I've got a fabric guy) is
willing to try Stewart
System glue, so I think we'll give that a shot. That
plus Wienerdog
Aero's Latex painting technique, & we should be good
to go. Smile

Charlie

On 4/10/2017 9:15 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>
<herbgh(at)nctc.com>
>
> Haven't checked in a while..but think A/C spruce
can ship Poly Fiber
> chemicals with no haz material charge...? Herb
>
>
> On 04/10/2017 09:10 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>>
<herbgh(at)nctc.com>
>>
>> Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or
2.6. Herb
>>
>>
>> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>>> Anyone using a covering supplier that's
better (cheaper, better
>>> service, etc) than A/C Spruce?
>>


---
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Dralle, List Adm=========









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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:57 am    Post subject: covering supplier? Reply with quote

Hey Herb,
Looks like I might need to rethink that. Are you talking about this:http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/cs/fabric/peelply3.php
vs this:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/cs/fabric/polyfiberuncertified.php
?
The peel ply doesn't have any thread count or strength specs on the Spruce site, so I can't directly compare. Measurements indicate that I can half-wrap the wing with a 5' width of the peel ply, so the extra foot of Polyfiber would just get cut away, anyway.
Thanks, 
Charlie


On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 10:17 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Thanks; I've heard of using regular polyester fabric. But at roughly a $3 price delta, it's only a $40 spread for all the fabric I'll need.

On 4/10/2017 9:10 PM, Hoppy wrote:
Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com (herbgh(at)nctc.com)>

Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb


On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
Quote:
Anyone using a covering supplier that's better (cheaper, better service, etc) than A/C Spruce?



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:13 am    Post subject: covering supplier? Reply with quote

the heavier fabric is much easier to work with imho..   2.7 peel ply...just need to be careful tautening the fabric on the wings..

  Interestingly...the older Challengers had no bottom rib runners...and the fabric just layed across the front and real spar.. root rib to wing tip!!  a real flap in the breeze...I can imagine hitting a duck and having a real problem...not so much with a Kolb...Herb

On 04/11/2017 11:57 AM, Charlie England wrote:

Quote:
Hey Herb,


Looks like I might need to rethink that. Are you talking about this: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/cs/fabric/peelply3.php
vs this:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/cs/fabric/polyfiberuncertified.php


?


The peel ply doesn't have any thread count or strength specs on the Spruce site, so I can't directly compare. Measurements indicate that I can half-wrap the wing with a 5' width of the peel ply, so the extra foot of Polyfiber would just get cut away, anyway.


Thanks, 


Charlie




On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 10:17 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Thanks; I've heard of using regular polyester fabric. But at roughly a $3 price delta, it's only a $40 spread for all the fabric I'll need.

On 4/10/2017 9:10 PM, Hoppy wrote:
Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com (herbgh(at)nctc.com)>

Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or 2.6. Herb


On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
Quote:
Anyone using a covering supplier that's better (cheaper, better service, etc) than A/C Spruce?



---
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mojavjoe



Joined: 23 Dec 2013
Posts: 64

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:06 am    Post subject: covering supplier? Reply with quote

Bill

I 'm reusing a pair of wings. I've already recovered one wing using the Stewart system and painted it along the lines of Weiner Dog, except I'm painting art scenes on the wings so more paint than normal. Weighed recovered wing against wing with old poly fiber. The new wing only weighed 3 oz more

Joe

From: "Bill Berle" <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
To: "kolb-list" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 10:23:33 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: covering supplier?
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
What about this price... Smile
https://www.evroberts.com/3m-24/fastbond-30-nf-green-1120/
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 4/11/17, <mojavjoe(at)comcast.net> wrote:
Subject: Re: covering supplier?
To: "kolb-list" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Tuesday, April 11, 2017, 5:27 AM

Charlie

Another tip, buy Fastbond NF Green on
Amazon, it's the same adhesive as Stewart at half
the price

Joe

From:
"Charlie England"
<ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
To: "kolb-list"
<kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
 Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 11:53:23 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: covering supplier?

--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England
<ceengland7(at)gmail.com>

Sounds like Spruce is the go-to place, then.

My fabric guy (yeah, I've got a fabric guy) is
willing to try Stewart
 System glue, so I think we'll give that a shot. That
plus Wienerdog
Aero's Latex painting technique, & we should be good
to go. Smile

Charlie

On 4/10/2017 9:15 PM, Hoppy wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Hoppy
<herbgh(at)nctc.com>
>
> Haven't checked in a while..but think A/C spruce
can ship Poly Fiber
 > chemicals with no haz material charge...? Herb
>
 >
> On 04/10/2017 09:10 PM, Hoppy wrote:
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Hoppy
<herbgh(at)nctc.com>
>>
>> Yep..Peel ply... around 5 bucks a yard...1.7 or
2.6. Herb
>>
>>
>> On 04/10/2017 06:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>>> Anyone using a covering supplier that's
better (cheaper, better
>>> service, etc) than A/C Spruce?
>>


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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:46 am    Post subject: covering supplier? Reply with quote


Kolbers:

I have never been one to mix and match when it came to covering an aircraft.  Always used the Stitts/Polyfiber process.

I never forget the unforgiving environment us aviators play.

Always sad when I think of Steve Whitman and his wife dying because of a covering mix and match mistake.

Realize it cost more to use the Polyfiber process, but am also comfortable knowing it'll be there for a long time.  My right wing and most of my tail section is 26 year old Stitts process.  Left wing is 16 years old.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama


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hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama
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stuart(at)harnerfarm.net
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: covering supplier? Reply with quote

John,

Nail, Head, direct hit!

I think the latex system that Malcom has come up with is a good system and if I had the patience and skill to do all that wet sanding I might have gone that route.

As much as I enjoyed building my Firefly, the goal was to fly!

Don’t mix processes and follow the instructions for the process you use.

Stuart

Do not archive

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 2:44 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: covering supplier?



Kolbers:

I have never been one to mix and match when it came to covering an aircraft. Always used the Stitts/Polyfiber process.

I never forget the unforgiving environment us aviators play.

Always sad when I think of Steve Whitman and his wife dying because of a covering mix and match mistake.

Realize it cost more to use the Polyfiber process, but am also comfortable knowing it'll be there for a long time. My right wing and most of my tail section is 26 year old Stitts process. Left wing is 16 years old.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: covering supplier? Reply with quote

I asked Malcom about this at OSH a few years back. He said the weight is almost identical. He can sure put a beautiful finish on fabric!

This is the perfect system for those who:
Want to work without the "stink"
Save money.
Have more time than I do....

Stuart

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:03 pm    Post subject: covering supplier? Reply with quote

I appreciate the caution, and I'm not that prone to stray where no one's been before, either. I did order Poly brand cloth (polyester), and the Stewart System glue.Both the latex finishing technique, and the Stewart adhesive have been around for a long time, so I'm comfortable with those decisions.

The Steve Whitman story, as I remember it, was that he switched from the old 'dope' and course weave fabric to the newer process. The story I heard was that the dope & course weave allowed you to position the fabric and then just apply dope to the outside, and it soaked through to the ribs. But the new, finer weave fabric & adhesive required applying the adhesive directly to the ribs, positioning the fabric, and then applying additional adhesive over the fabric, because the weave was too tight for the adhesive to easily soak through. Again, as I remember it, he mixed *techniques*; not the actual chemicals. By only applying the adhesive on the outside, only a minimal amount made it through to the ribs.
Those with better memories, feel free to correct me if I'm mis-remembering.
Charlie

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 2:43 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:
Quote:

 
 
Kolbers:
 
I have never been one to mix and match when it came to covering an aircraft.  Always used the Stitts/Polyfiber process.
 
I never forget the unforgiving environment us aviators play.
 
Always sad when I think of Steve Whitman and his wife dying because of a covering mix and match mistake.
 
Realize it cost more to use the Polyfiber process, but am also comfortable knowing it'll be there for a long time.  My right wing and most of my tail section is 26 year old Stitts process.  Left wing is 16 years old.
 
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama



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