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Flaky EGT Probe

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art(at)zemon.name
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:58 pm Post subject: Flaky EGT Probe

Folks,

One of my four EGT probes is flaky. Sometimes it works. Most of the time it reads zero (too low to register). I don't actually use the EGT for anything so I'm not very excited about spending money to fix it. But it annoys me to see three nice green bars and one black space where there should be a green bar.

Are these things repairable?

    -- Art Z.

-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19

email(at)jaredyates.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:32 pm Post subject: Flaky EGT Probe

Art, you seem like the kind of fellow who would appreciate a lengthy blog post:

 http://bearhawkblue.com/replacing-the-oem-dynon-thermocouple-connectors-with-omega-connectors/ 

  

On August 15, 2019 23:05:01 Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		   Folks,

One of my four EGT probes is flaky. Sometimes it works. Most of the time it reads zero (too low to register). I don't actually use the EGT for anything so I'm not very excited about spending money to fix it. But it annoys me to see three nice green bars and one black space where there should be a green bar.

Are these things repairable?

    -- Art Z.

-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19

bob.verwey(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:01 pm Post subject: Flaky EGT Probe

Hi Art

So how is it that you dont use your EGT? To me it is a prized tool in the engine management arsenal!

On Fri, 16 Aug 2019 at 05:03, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Folks,

One of my four EGT probes is flaky. Sometimes it works. Most of the time it reads zero (too low to register). I don't actually use the EGT for anything so I'm not very excited about spending money to fix it. But it annoys me to see three nice green bars and one black space where there should be a green bar.

Are these things repairable?

    -- Art Z.

-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19



 	


-- 

Best...Bob Verwey



082 331 2727

[img]https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B5d7rgAInTuTUUZsUjY4QmJsdVU&revid=0B5d7rgAInTuTdDJDaXRFZVh3b3lMa3FWL0s3MFdzc01YRlNvPQ[/img]

fidot

Joined: 07 Jul 2019
Posts: 6

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: Flaky EGT Probe

Art, 



For what it's worth, when I had a similar problem on my EI Engine Monitor, it turned out to be the bad input channel rather than probe. I'd start with trying to move it to another channel (ie, swap two probes) and seeing what happens... unless you've already done that...

art(at)zemon.name
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:39 pm Post subject: Flaky EGT Probe

Bob,

The Lycoming operating manual says:

 	  Quote: 	
		  LEANING WITH MANUAL MIXTURE CONTROL. (Economy cruise, 75% power or less, without flowmeter or EGT gauge.)

<snip>

Fuel Injected Engines.

(1) Slowly move mixture control from “Full Rich” position toward lean position.

(2) Continue leaning until slight loss of power is noted (loss of power may or may not be accompanied by roughness.

(3) Enrich until engine runs smoothly and power is regained. 	




I tried this method and compared the results with using the EGT (also per Lycoming's operating manual). I got the same fuel flow both ways.

I learned the manual method in airplanes that lacked an EGT probe on each cylinder. It's quick and doesn't require me to interrupt my scan.

    -- Art Z.





On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 1:18 AM Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com (bob.verwey(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Hi Art

So how is it that you dont use your EGT? To me it is a prized tool in the engine management arsenal!

On Fri, 16 Aug 2019 at 05:03, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Folks,

One of my four EGT probes is flaky. Sometimes it works. Most of the time it reads zero (too low to register). I don't actually use the EGT for anything so I'm not very excited about spending money to fix it. But it annoys me to see three nice green bars and one black space where there should be a green bar.

Are these things repairable?

    -- Art Z.

-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19



 	


-- 

Best...Bob Verwey



082 331 2727





 	


-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19

art(at)zemon.name
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:23 am Post subject: Flaky EGT Probe

Jared,

Yes, indeed; I did appreciate that. I would have replaced flaky connectors, too.

I have an MGL system so the only connectors in the EGT circuit are the screw terminals on the RDAC.

    -- Art Z.





On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 10:46 PM Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com (email(at)jaredyates.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		      

Art, you seem like the kind of fellow who would appreciate a lengthy blog post:

 http://bearhawkblue.com/replacing-the-oem-dynon-thermocouple-connectors-with-omega-connectors/ 

  

On August 15, 2019 23:05:01 Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		   Folks,

One of my four EGT probes is flaky. Sometimes it works. Most of the time it reads zero (too low to register). I don't actually use the EGT for anything so I'm not very excited about spending money to fix it. But it annoys me to see three nice green bars and one black space where there should be a green bar.

Are these things repairable?

    -- Art Z.

-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19



 	
 

 

   

	


-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19

art(at)zemon.name
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:29 am Post subject: Flaky EGT Probe

Good thought. I can easily try that since I have several unused channels.

    -- Art Z.





On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 8:03 PM fidot <web(at)79ft.net (web(at)79ft.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "fidot" <web(at)79ft.net (web(at)79ft.net)>

 

 Art, 

 

 For what it's worth, when I had a similar problem on my EI Engine Monitor, it turned out to be the bad input channel rather than probe. I'd start with trying to move it to another channel (ie, swap two probes) and seeing what happens... unless you've already done that... 	


-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19

skywagon185(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:46 am Post subject: Flaky EGT Probe

Art,

About the leaning steps....

I would suggest one additional comment/step:

As one pulls the Mixture knob for leaning, when you get near peak EGT, one should develop a habit of "zipping" thru peak and getting on the lean side as quickly as possible. 

When on the rich side and coming up on Peak EGT, there is a region most prone to cause engine problems; pinging, detonation, etc. depending on power setting, atmospherics, etc..  That region should be not lingered in.  Getting into the lean side does a nice job of cooling and cruise economy.  After some practice in noting where the mixture knob sits in lean mode, one can do a fast "pull" from rich to lean, and then use EGT or CHT to set the final mixture for lean cruise.



On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 6:45 PM Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Bob,

The Lycoming operating manual says:

 	  Quote: 	
		  LEANING WITH MANUAL MIXTURE CONTROL. (Economy cruise, 75% power or less, without flowmeter or EGT gauge.)

<snip>

Fuel Injected Engines.

(1) Slowly move mixture control from “Full Rich” position toward lean position.

(2) Continue leaning until slight loss of power is noted (loss of power may or may not be accompanied by roughness.

(3) Enrich until engine runs smoothly and power is regained. 	




I tried this method and compared the results with using the EGT (also per Lycoming's operating manual). I got the same fuel flow both ways.

I learned the manual method in airplanes that lacked an EGT probe on each cylinder. It's quick and doesn't require me to interrupt my scan.

    -- Art Z.





On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 1:18 AM Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com (bob.verwey(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Hi Art

So how is it that you dont use your EGT? To me it is a prized tool in the engine management arsenal!

On Fri, 16 Aug 2019 at 05:03, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Folks,

One of my four EGT probes is flaky. Sometimes it works. Most of the time it reads zero (too low to register). I don't actually use the EGT for anything so I'm not very excited about spending money to fix it. But it annoys me to see three nice green bars and one black space where there should be a green bar.

Are these things repairable?

    -- Art Z.

-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19



 	


-- 

Best...Bob Verwey



082 331 2727





 	


-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:13 am Post subject: Flaky EGT Probe

Whether going slow or fast through peak area is highly dependent on the 

power setting in use at the time. If 65% or less, it is immaterial 

whether you go slow or fast, you won't hurt anything. Generally more 

desirable to establish peak at 65%, then adjust to final power you 

desire with throttle.

Otherwise, as you say, establish a known fuel flow that is assured to be 

LOP for the power setting, go straight from rich to that setting, and 

then find peak from the lean side, knowing the first to reach peak will 

be the richest cylinder and the rest are leaner.



On 8/18/2019 11:44 AM, skywagon185guy . wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Art,

 About the leaning steps....

 I would suggest one additional comment/step:

 As one pulls the Mixture knob for leaning, when you get near peak EGT, 

 one should develop a habit of "zipping" thru peak and getting on the 

 lean side as quickly as possible.

 When on the rich side and coming up on Peak EGT, there is a region most 

 prone to cause engine problems; pinging, detonation, etc. depending on 

 power setting, atmospherics, etc..  That region should be not lingered 

 in.  Getting into the lean side does a nice job of cooling and cruise 

 economy.  After some practice in noting where the mixture knob sits in 

 lean mode, one can do a fast "pull" from rich to lean, and then use EGT 

 or CHT to set the final mixture for lean cruise.

 

 On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 6:45 PM Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name 

 <mailto:art(at)zemon.name>> wrote:

 

     Bob,

 

     The Lycoming operating manual says:

 

         LEANING WITH MANUAL MIXTURE CONTROL. (Economy cruise, 75% power

         or less, without flowmeter or EGT gauge.)

         <snip>

         Fuel Injected Engines.

         (1) Slowly move mixture control from “Full Rich” position toward

         lean position.

         (2) Continue leaning until slight loss of power is noted (loss

         of power may or may not beaccompanied by roughness.

         (3) Enrich until engine runs smoothly and power is regained.

 

 

     I tried this method and compared the results with using the EGT

     (also per Lycoming's operating manual). I got the same fuel flow

     both ways.

 

     I learned the manual method in airplanes that lacked an EGT probe on

     each cylinder. It's quick and doesn't require me to interrupt my scan.

 

          -- Art Z.

 

 

     On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 1:18 AM Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com

     <mailto:bob.verwey(at)gmail.com>> wrote:

 

         Hi Art

         So how is it that you dont use your EGT? To me it is a prized

         tool in the engine management arsenal!

 

         On Fri, 16 Aug 2019 at 05:03, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name

         <mailto:art(at)zemon.name>> wrote:

 

             Folks,

 

             One of my four EGT probes is flaky. Sometimes it works. Most

             of the time it reads zero (too low to register). I don't

             actually use the EGT for anything so I'm not very excited

             about spending money to fix it. But it annoys me to see

             three nice green bars and one black space where there should

             be a green bar.

 

             Are these things repairable?

 

                  -- Art Z.

 

             -- 

             https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/

 

             /Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in

             Egypt. /Deut. 10:19

 

 

 

         -- 

         Best...

         Bob Verwey

         082 331 2727

 

 

 

 

 

     -- 

     https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/

 

     /Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt.

     /Deut. 10:19

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:16 am Post subject: Flaky EGT Probe

That's been recommended by some of the 'big names', and makes some sense.

But my recent experience with a new-to-me RV-6 with a ~15+ year old Dynon

engine monitor is that a 'quick pull' seems to confuse its lean function,

and it can't seem to detect lean of peak. That also makes some intuitive

sense, since EGT never really 'peaks'. Anyone have this experience with

later engine monitors?



Art, if the probe does turn out to be bad, do some ebay deep diving. If

you're willing to wait a few weeks (and you're not hung up on "buy

'Murcun", there are some good deals on Chinese probes.



Charlie



On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 1:51 PM skywagon185guy . <skywagon185(at)gmail.com>

wrote:



[quote] Art,

 About the leaning steps....

 I would suggest one additional comment/step:

 As one pulls the Mixture knob for leaning, when you get near peak EGT, one

 should develop a habit of "zipping" thru peak and getting on the lean side

 as quickly as possible.

 When on the rich side and coming up on Peak EGT, there is a region most

 prone to cause engine problems; pinging, detonation, etc. depending on

 power setting, atmospherics, etc..  That region should be not lingered in

art(at)zemon.name
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:40 pm Post subject: Flaky EGT Probe

Gents,

I encourage both of you to read the Lycoming operator's manual for the O-360 and IO-360. You can download it here: https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/O-HO-IO-HIO-AIO%20%26%20TIO-360%20Oper%20Manual%2060297-12.pdf

The document is quite specific about how to lean the engine and when running LOP is permissible and how much hotter than peak.

Executive summary:

75% power or greater, run at peak EGT
less than 75% power, run up to 150 degrees F lean of peak

Cheers,

    -- Art Z.

On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 2:28 PM Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

 Whether going slow or fast through peak area is highly dependent on the 

 power setting in use at the time. If 65% or less, it is immaterial 

 whether you go slow or fast, you won't hurt anything. Generally more 

 desirable to establish peak at 65%, then adjust to final power you 

 desire with throttle.

 Otherwise, as you say, establish a known fuel flow that is assured to be 

 LOP for the power setting, go straight from rich to that setting, and 

 then find peak from the lean side, knowing the first to reach peak will 

 be the richest cylinder and the rest are leaner.

 On 8/18/2019 11:44 AM, skywagon185guy . wrote:

 > Art,

 > About the leaning steps....

 > I would suggest one additional comment/step:

 > As one pulls the Mixture knob for leaning, when you get near peak EGT, 

 > one should develop a habit of "zipping" thru peak and getting on the 

 > lean side as quickly as possible.

 > When on the rich side and coming up on Peak EGT, there is a region most 

 > prone to cause engine problems; pinging, detonation, etc. depending on 

 > power setting, atmospherics, etc..  That region should be not lingered 

 > in.  Getting into the lean side does a nice job of cooling and cruise 

 > economy.  After some practice in noting where the mixture knob sits in 

 > lean mode, one can do a fast "pull" from rich to lean, and then use EGT 

 > or CHT to set the final mixture for lean cruise. 	

-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19

chuckryan4(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:54 pm Post subject: Flaky EGT Probe

On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 2:45 PM Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Gents,

I encourage both of you to read the Lycoming operator's manual for the O-360 and IO-360. You can download it here: https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/O-HO-IO-HIO-AIO%20%26%20TIO-360%20Oper%20Manual%2060297-12.pdf

The document is quite specific about how to lean the engine and when running LOP is permissible and how much hotter than peak.

Executive summary:

75% power or greater, run at peak EGT
less than 75% power, run up to 150 degrees F lean of peak

Cheers,

    -- Art Z.

On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 2:28 PM Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

 Whether going slow or fast through peak area is highly dependent on the 

 power setting in use at the time. If 65% or less, it is immaterial 

 whether you go slow or fast, you won't hurt anything. Generally more 

 desirable to establish peak at 65%, then adjust to final power you 

 desire with throttle.

 Otherwise, as you say, establish a known fuel flow that is assured to be 

 LOP for the power setting, go straight from rich to that setting, and 

 then find peak from the lean side, knowing the first to reach peak will 

 be the richest cylinder and the rest are leaner.

 On 8/18/2019 11:44 AM, skywagon185guy . wrote:

 > Art,

 > About the leaning steps....

 > I would suggest one additional comment/step:

 > As one pulls the Mixture knob for leaning, when you get near peak EGT, 

 > one should develop a habit of "zipping" thru peak and getting on the 

 > lean side as quickly as possible.

 > When on the rich side and coming up on Peak EGT, there is a region most 

 > prone to cause engine problems; pinging, detonation, etc. depending on 

 > power setting, atmospherics, etc..  That region should be not lingered 

 > in.  Getting into the lean side does a nice job of cooling and cruise 

 > economy.  After some practice in noting where the mixture knob sits in 

 > lean mode, one can do a fast "pull" from rich to lean, and then use EGT 

 > or CHT to set the final mixture for lean cruise. 	

-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:54 pm Post subject: Flaky EGT Probe

Art, my copy flips that:

[img]cid:ii_jzhhrik50[/img]

Operating at or above 75% at peak egt is  generally considered to be hazardous to exhaust valves. Under 75% makes peak operation ok, as mentioned in the document. The doc doesn't seem to address lean of peak; not surprising since it's almost 15 years old. IIRC, there are Lyc docs with later publication dates that hedge a bit on that 75%/peak statement, but virtually no one operates there, anyway. Almost nothing is lost by going 20-30 lean of peak, assuming mixture distribution allows it.

Charlie

On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 3:45 PM Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Gents,

I encourage both of you to read the Lycoming operator's manual for the O-360 and IO-360. You can download it here: https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/O-HO-IO-HIO-AIO%20%26%20TIO-360%20Oper%20Manual%2060297-12.pdf

The document is quite specific about how to lean the engine and when running LOP is permissible and how much hotter than peak.

Executive summary:

75% power or greater, run at peak EGT
less than 75% power, run up to 150 degrees F lean of peak

Cheers,

    -- Art Z.

On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 2:28 PM Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

 Whether going slow or fast through peak area is highly dependent on the 

 power setting in use at the time. If 65% or less, it is immaterial 

 whether you go slow or fast, you won't hurt anything. Generally more 

 desirable to establish peak at 65%, then adjust to final power you 

 desire with throttle.

 Otherwise, as you say, establish a known fuel flow that is assured to be 

 LOP for the power setting, go straight from rich to that setting, and 

 then find peak from the lean side, knowing the first to reach peak will 

 be the richest cylinder and the rest are leaner.

 On 8/18/2019 11:44 AM, skywagon185guy . wrote:

 > Art,

 > About the leaning steps....

 > I would suggest one additional comment/step:

 > As one pulls the Mixture knob for leaning, when you get near peak EGT, 

 > one should develop a habit of "zipping" thru peak and getting on the 

 > lean side as quickly as possible.

 > When on the rich side and coming up on Peak EGT, there is a region most 

 > prone to cause engine problems; pinging, detonation, etc. depending on 

 > power setting, atmospherics, etc..  That region should be not lingered 

 > in.  Getting into the lean side does a nice job of cooling and cruise 

 > economy.  After some practice in noting where the mixture knob sits in 

 > lean mode, one can do a fast "pull" from rich to lean, and then use EGT 

 > or CHT to set the final mixture for lean cruise. 	

-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19

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