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Cirrus Killer?

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res02p3h(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:15 pm Post subject: Cirrus Killer?

Well, it finally flew. The Cirrus killer that Cessna has promised  

the  high wing faithful.



http://www.cardinalflyers.com/images/xbatch/newcessna/



Part of me wants to go and visit John Rock and show him this, and the  

other part of me (perhaps the more rational part) is willing to just  

sigh and wonder what if Grumman had developed the turbo Tiger, or  

designed a six-place version, sans canopy, of course.



In looking at this bird, I see some ungainliness in the design:  

perhaps an attempt to combine the DNA of the Cardinal and the old  

Centurion. A little nose heavy. That nose gear looks familiar!



Teamsters, your thoughts and observations (I can't wait to hear what  

Barry has to say about this!)?



Bruce, in the wilds of South Central PA

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n9242z+teamgrumman(at)gma
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:36 pm Post subject: Cirrus Killer?

On 7/25/06, Bruce Smith <res02p3h(at)verizon.net (res02p3h(at)verizon.net)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Bruce Smith <res02p3h(at)verizon.net (res02p3h(at)verizon.net)>



Well, it finally flew. The Cirrus killer that Cessna has promised

the  high wing faithful. 	


AVWeb has some real nice pics:



http://www.avweb.com/newspics/new_cessna2.jpg

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mark.t.mueller(at)comcast
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:43 am Post subject: Cirrus Killer?

I am not a "high-wing" guy, and fly a Tiger, but I have to say Cessna certainly COULD produce a "Cirrus AND Columbia-killer", but the emphasis on the word "COULD"...

  

 Let's not forget the market forces of ever-higher fuel prices will make an impact even on Cirrus at some point (soon)...

  

 BUT, if Cessna can produce this bird and price it for the market at $10K less than an SR-22 with equivalent or better performance in range, payload, and speed, I think they will have a winner.

  

 Depending upon the markets, I am looking at something much faster than my Tiger in the next 3 years or so, even if I have to build it myself.  I have researched both Columbia and Cirrus for value and mission.  I think Cirrus has some serious flaws, and I have not heard too many positive comments on out-of-warrantee maintenance.  That's not to say if I can pick up a used SR-22 for a song I wouldn't do it, but Cirrus is definitely NOT my #1 pick.  I think the Columbia is a much better, more robust design.  It is also certified in the Utility category, not Normal, better stressed airframe, better trim control, and the lightning mitigation built into the structure appears superior to Cirrus.  I heard early Cirrus have had motor issues as well, it seems moreso than the Columbia.  But the Columbia carries a higher price, even for equivalently equipped used models (looking at the 300 and 350 vs. SR-22).  Columbia claims that 350s can   be up graded with model improvements (like A/C), the 300s cannot.  The jury is out whether older SR-22s will be able to be retrofitted with the TAT turbo system or the new wingtips...

  

 So, for Cessna to truly steal market share from Cirrus I think they would have to provide the following:

 1)  TAS 180+kts

 2)  Four seats AND fuel payload capacity

 3)  ~1000nm range

 4)  Wide cabin comfort equivalent to the Cirrus (the Columbia felt slightly more cramped than the SR-22 I sat in...  My wife is a big proponent of not rubbing shoulders when we fly if you are going to spend that kind of $$$!)

 5)  Reliability - better dispatch rate than an SR-22 (I have heard horror stories about some of the early glass-panel installations.)

 6)  SERVICE, SERVICE, SERVICE!!!  I am always amazed at the extremely poor customer service I receive in GA these days.  I have heard grumblings here and there regarding the reliability and quality of service from "Cirrus Service Centers", seems to be pretty hit-or-miss.  And 'out-of-warrantee' issues could be a bear.  Spare parts must be easy to get and inexpensive relative to the rest...

  

 I truly think Columbia is a "Cirrus-killer" design, but they are more expensive and poorly marketed and supported in the field.  I don't think the stats on the BRS bear it out as a 'safety feature' for Cirrus' side of the value equation.

  

 We have seen from "New Tiger" that "old-style management", poor marketing, and no product innovation along with sketchy after-sales support (INCLUDING parts) don't sell $200,000+ line items.

  

 Cessna has brand recognition, a wide product line, thousands of A&Ps used to working on their older products, and a spare parts distribution network.  If they can even come close to the performance and comfort of an SR-22 with superior after-sales support, I think they will be stealing some lunch-money...

  

 Mark

 Tiger N1533R

  

  

  

 Time: 04:15:46 PM PST US

Subject: Cirrus Killer?



Well, it finally flew. The Cirrus killer that Cessna has promised  

the  high wing faithful.



http://www.cardinalflyers.com/images/xbatch/newcessna/



Part of me wants to go and visit John Rock and show him this, and the  

other part of me (perhaps the more rational part) is willing to just  

sigh and wonder what if Grumman had developed the turbo Tiger, or  

designed a six-place version, sans canopy, of course.

- The Matronics TeamGrumman-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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bruce.smith(at)york.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:12 am Post subject: Cirrus Killer?

Mark,



Well said! There are two SR-22s on my field. They are always viewed with 

a mixture of awe and admiration. While they do perform well, no one 

talks about the negative aspect of Cirrus ownership. It's always "well, 

it's a new design". If you bring up the Columbia 300/350/400 to the 

local hangar fliers, you see eyes glaze over and hear, well, it doesn't 

have the BPS, yada, yada, yada. Cirrus, rightly or wrongly, has achieved 

the exalted status of being able to deflect all criticism, at least for 

the time being.



Bruce



mark.t.mueller(at)comcast.net said the following on 7/26/2006 9:41 AM:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I am not a "high-wing" guy, and fly a Tiger, but I have to say Cessna 

 certainly COULD produce a "Cirrus AND Columbia-killer", but the 

 emphasis on the word "COULD"...

  

 Let's not forget the market forces of ever-higher fuel prices will 

 make an impact even on Cirrus at some point (soon)...

  

 BUT, if Cessna can produce this bird and price it for the market at 

 $10K less than an SR-22 with equivalent or better performance in 

 range, payload, and speed, I think they will have a winner.

  

 Depending upon the markets, I am looking at something much faster than 

 my Tiger in the next 3 years or so, even if I have to build it 

 myself.  I have researched both Columbia and Cirrus for value and 

 mission.  I think Cirrus has some serious flaws, and I have not heard 

 too many positive comments on out-of-warrantee maintenance.  That's 

 not to say if I can pick up a used SR-22 for a song I wouldn't do it, 

 but Cirrus is definitely NOT my #1 pick.  I think the Columbia is a 

 much better, more robust design.  It is also certified in the Utility 

 category, not Normal, better stressed airframe, better trim control, 

 and the lightning mitigation built into the structure appears superior 

 to Cirrus.  I heard early Cirrus have had motor issues as well, it 

 seems moreso than the Columbia.  But the Columbia carries a higher 

 price, even for equivalently equipped used models (looking at the 300 

 and 350 vs. SR-22).  Columbia claims that 350s can be up graded with 

 model improvements (like A/C), the 300s cannot.  The jury is out 

 whether older SR-22s will be able to be retrofitted with the TAT turbo 

 system or the new wingtips...

  

 So, for Cessna to truly steal market share from Cirrus I think they 

 would have to provide the following:

 1)  TAS 180+kts

 2)  Four seats AND fuel payload capacity

 3)  ~1000nm range

 4)  Wide cabin comfort equivalent to the Cirrus (the Columbia felt 

 slightly more cramped than the SR-22 I sat in...  My wife is a big 

 proponent of not rubbing shoulders when we fly if you are going to 

 spend that kind of $$$!)

 5)  Reliability - better dispatch rate than an SR-22 (I have heard 

 horror stories about some of the early glass-panel installations.)

 6)  SERVICE, SERVICE, SERVICE!!!  I am always amazed at the extremely 

 poor customer service I receive in GA these days.  I have heard 

 grumblings here and there regarding the reliability and quality of 

 service from "Cirrus Service Centers", seems to be pretty 

 hit-or-miss.  And 'out-of-warrantee' issues could be a bear.  Spare 

 parts must be easy to get and inexpensive relative to the rest...

  

 I truly think Columbia is a "Cirrus-killer" design, but they are more 

 expensive and poorly marketed and supported in the field.  I don't 

 think the stats on the BRS bear it out as a 'safety feature' for 

 Cirrus' side of the value equation.

  

 We have seen from "New Tiger" that "old-style management", poor 

 marketing, and no product innovation along with sketchy after-sales 

 support (INCLUDING parts) don't sell $200,000+ line items.

  

 Cessna has brand recognition, a wide product line, thousands of A&Ps 

 used to working on their older products, and a spare parts 

 distribution network.  If they can even come close to the performance 

 and comfort of an SR-22 with superior after-sales support, I think 

 they will be stealing some lunch-money...

  

 Mark

 Tiger N1533R

  

  

  

 Time: 04:15:46 PM PST US

 Subject: Cirrus Killer?



 Well, it finally flew. The Cirrus killer that Cessna has promised 

 the  high wing faithful.



 http://www.cardinalflyers.com/images/xbatch/newcessna/



 Part of me wants to go and visit John Rock and show him this, and the 

 other part of me (perhaps the more rational part) is willing to just 

 sigh and wonder what if Grumman had developed the turbo Tiger, or 

 designed a six-place version, sans canopy, of course.

- The Matronics TeamGrumman-List Email Forum -

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FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:15 am Post subject: Cirrus Killer?

In a message dated 7/26/06 9:44:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 

mark.t.mueller(at)comcast.net writes:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Mark

  Tiger N1533R

==========================
	


Mark:



Thank you for your post, it was very informative and well laid out.



You can add this to your NOT column on the Cirrus:

There is a Cirrus dealer at Morristown AP (KMMU) in NJ.  I understand in one 

day or one week they had two Cirrus collapse their nose strut.  The funny part 

about it was the dealer had them parked right under his FOB/Cirrus Dealership 

Sign ... Not a good choice for advertising.



Barry

"Chop'd Liver"

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jamey

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:20 pm Post subject: Cirrus Killer?

With  no disrespect to Cirrus or Columbia as I really don't think any of the GA planes  available these days are bad designs and my friend really likes his Cirrus if  you want something with Cirrus performance, in the utility category, with a  TATubo upgrade path look no further than a Bonanza.  Most A36's also have  far more useful load than a Cirrus and I can get 165-170 KTAS lean of peak  burning 11-12 GPH in the low teens.  The TATurbo guys see 200KTAS by the  mid-teens burning 17 GPH with a 400 lb. gross weight increase.  You can't  beat it in my book.

  

 Jamey

 BE36  N7218R (at) KSQL (okay, so I'm biased)

 [quote]   

   --

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flyv35b(at)ashcreekwirele
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:32 pm Post subject: Cirrus Killer?

After owning numerous Cessnas and  lots of Grummans over many years, I guess I am biased also after owning my  Bonanza and several others for about 9 years now.  The Bonanza does many  things as well as the newer SR22 and Columbia and several things much  better.

  

 One thing that stuck in my mind  from a recent conversation with a Garmin test pilot who has flown many hours in  both the SR22 as well as the Columbia 350 and 400 and an A36 Bonanza.  He  said that the controls are heavy in both the SR22 and Columbia and both planes  are not as fast as their advertised speeds, especially the SR22.  All three  of the normally aspirated planes are pretty close to the same speed but the  Bonanza is a much nicer flying plane when it comes to control effort and  response.

  

 I haven't see any SR22's in the  back country strips in Idaho where I take the Bonanza.

  

 Cliff

 [quote]   ---

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