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Airspeed awareness in the circuit

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Mark Burton

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 74

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: Airspeed awareness in the circuit

I know some folks may well think that I am trying to profit from the recent tragic accident at Oshkosh but my motivation for writing this message is not to make money out of that incident but rather to reduce the chance of a similar accident occuring in the future.



As soon as I heard about that accident, it occurred to me that if Cliff's Europa had been fitted with one of my talking ASI units, the accident may have been avoided. Reading the preliminary accident report reinforces that view. I'm not saying it would definitely have turned out differently, but it may have.



One of the main reasons for designing the talking ASI was to make the pilot very aware of the airspeed during the later part of the circuit without requiring them to have their eyes in the cockpit. The airspeed is "pushed" at the pilot through their headset.



If I was financially well off, I would give a talking ASI to anyone who wanted one because I believe it makes a real contribution to flight safety. I can't afford to do that but if you are interested in obtaining one, please visit www.smartavionics.com.

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carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:25 am Post subject: Airspeed awareness in the circuit

What is wrong with a normal stall warner - the buzzer can be plumbed onto 

the intercom if desired or just placed at head height where the microphone 

will pick up the noise.



Mine goes off 5kts before the stall but if the aircraft was in a turn and 

the wing tip stalled there wouldnt be enough warning.



Some Europas will drop a wing if they are not straight and level prior to 

the stall. This is further complicated if the panel isnt perfectly aligned 

with the wings - dont laugh, ours isnt and it all looks perfectly level in 

the cockpit. The only clue is that the ball sits slightly to the left when 

flying straight and level. If you centre the ball and initiate a stall there 

is a severe wing drop especially with the flaps down.  wonder how many other 

Europas have the same characteristic.



It would surprise me that such an experienced pilot would make such a basic 

mistake but then we have all done stupid things when our concentration has 

been disturbed.

---

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Mark Burton

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 74

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: Airspeed awareness in the circuit

Having a stall warning alarm has to be better than nothing at all but it probably won't give you much protection in the case of an accelerated stall in a Europa.  I have stalled my Europa many times (at height, of course) and, often, one of the wings will go down very quickly.



My belief is that if the airspeed is maintained within the "safe zone"  (given the aircraft weight and weather conditions) then you are unlikely to stall unless the controls are operated inappropriately.



Regards,



Mark

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ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:53 pm Post subject: Airspeed awareness in the circuit

Hi! All

Firstly belated but sincere condolences to all the bereaved family and

friends of Cliff and Betty Shaw.



I feel really humble making pronouncements at such an early time and

indeed wonder if with about 600 hours total and only on this type of a/c

I'm qualified to pass an opinion but here goes......

I believe that the cross control thing is really commonly known as a

"side slip"? 

Whilst this is a useful phenomenon for rapid loss of height on an

approach I have always been very cautious to not engage in such a

manoeuvre at low air speed and with flaps deployed. Perhaps I never had

to land on a strip with such needs?



However IMHO an important aid to stall warning needs to be associated

with the conditions on both wings hence the use of stall strips on both

wings.



I experienced my first severe wing drop this April whilst doing the

annual flight tests on my a/c but at 5,000ft.

I had for some time been flying on the very edge of the stall with full

buffet being experienced with flaps deployed and power on but with the

a/c quite co-ordinated in control when it suddenly and violently dropped

a port wing like a stone and was clearly entering a spin. I initiated

normal spin recovery ...nose down opposite rudder and cut the throttle,

but I had lost more than a 1000ft in a blink of the eye. It has shown no

previous tendency to this whilst I've flown it.

 

I applied a lot of thought to the conditions which I'd entered and

realised I had been not only down wind but also slightly across the wind

path so the wings were not likely to have had symmetrical lift

conditions anyway and so were not co-ordinated. I failed to notice the

probability of a slightly different buffet phenomenon with only the one

wing actually entering the dramatic stall but I presume it would have

been less obvious than a fully co-ordinated buffet.  



The point I seek to make is that whilst on approach to land all turns

need to be co-ordinated, at an adequate height well above stall speed

and not inclusive of any unusual or violent manoeuvres. IMHO these

approaches can only really be described as "LONG FINALS". Only then can

you afford to allow the airspeed to be anywhere near the stall

conditions.(and no side slips)



In making this statement I don't wish to appear clever but to promote

some more discussion around my particular perception for me to consider

as advice for myself.



This re-enforces the valuable aid of Mark Burtons air speed voice kit in

that it provides a constant read out whilst your eyes are on other

business.

( I don't have that assistance .....yet!)



Personally I never commence the flare at less than 65kts, fully laden or

not, and I seek to maintain no less than 60kts until within a foot of

the runway, only then am I prepared to allow the speed to sink further

(especially in gusty wind or where there's possibility of wind shear.)



Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG ....under repair !  



--

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europa flugzeug fabrik

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 65
Location: North Coast, USA

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: Airspeed awareness in the circuit

 	  Quote: 	
		  It would surprise me that such an experienced pilot would make such a basic mistake but then we have all done stupid things when our concentration has been disturbed. 	


Having flown into the Oshkosh convention many times, it is indeed a unique and exhilirating experience.  However, things can happen which divert your attention. What people in front of you are doing.  What tower may tell you, but you don't quite understand.  But the rule at AirVenture is you just listen, and never key the mike, so there's no colloquy.



I violated that rule once, while following some WWI-era biplane or replica, I swear in slow flight.  My plane on the verge of stall-warning horn with full flaps down is a real turtle.  But I still had to break it off the right downwind for 27, going north over the City.



Gotta love the ATC people who work Oshkosh AirVenture, because they spotted my plight.  I was turning west, to go back down to the City of Ripon per the NOTAM procedure and start all over (but parking may fill up), when Tower said..."Low wing over the City...suggest you bring your plane back NOW, for mid-field entry to the downwind.  Traffic behind you will be a Cessna 337, but he's still over the railroad tracks not ready to turn right downwind for 27. Please keep your speed up...he's a 337...and please make short approach.  Land on the green dot! [midway down the long ryw, temporarily painted in iridescent paint].



Seemingly knife-edge bank, 100% power mashed in to comply, I spotted that 337 traffic, and picked up the mike and said.  "Low wing over the city THANKS YOU!" Very occasionally at KOSH, we violate an advisory thing in the Oshkosh arrival NOTAM to compliment an FAA employee who did something he/she was not required to do.



Upon hitting that green dot (how I don't know; I'm not that good!).  Tower says, "Nice job Grumman!....337 [instructed to land short on the other color dot at the rwy threshold] follow that Grumman ahead of you to parking." Thence, quickly on to ATC instructions to other folks streaming in, couple thousand feet apart.



The point of this is that flying into OSH is a very unique thing and such accidents are extremely rare.  Most tend to arrive a little hot -- the rush of the arrival drill, so they'll never stall-spin, and it actually helps ATC.  We have to be honest with ourselves, and maybe even 95% of us would be little served with a hand-written panel placard for OSH which says, "ALWAYS FLY THE AIRPLANE."



We may never learn what happened here, because our NTSB does not investigate amateur-built accidents with anywhere near the thoroughness of  the AAIB in the UK.  It probably will be chalked up in probable cause (AAIB avoids probable cause determinations -- our NTSB has considered same approach) to failure to maintain flying speed.  I'm as saddened by this accident as anybody here, but it happened...and it can happen in any aircraft.



Fred F.

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mikenjulie.parkin(at)btop
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:51 pm Post subject: Airspeed awareness in the circuit

 	  Quote: 	
		   I applied a lot of thought to the conditions which I'd entered and

 realised I had been not only down wind but also slightly across the wind

 path so the wings were not likely to have had symmetrical lift

 conditions anyway and so were not co-ordinated.


	




Bob,



Sorry Bob, but flying across wind does not mean that there is more lift on 

one wing than the other.

Apart from the effects of gusts,  the direction of flight relative to the 

prevaling wind direction is irrelevant.

The aircraft is flying in a 'packet of air' in the normal manner and moves 

relative to the ground  as a result of the vector of the aircraft through 

that packet of air and the vector of the packet of air itself.

There are some inertia problems which can manifest themselves when turning 

from upwind to downwind tending to cause the IAS to decay a little.  This is 

one of the many factors affecting the decision to turnback following an 

engine failure after take-off .   My own opinion about flying turnbacks is 

DO NOT DO IT.



On another subject - the Europa Company stall warner does give a good 

warning of an approaching stall - normal and accellerated.



regards,

Mike

Do not archive.

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