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Stalls

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kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:59 am Post subject: Stalls

Apart from being extremely saddened by Cliff's death I guess we are all also 

very puzzled by the whole accident sequence. We may never know the causes 

leading up to the stall unless something entirely new comes to light from 

the autopsy or the aircraft wreck.

I always thought that wings were designed to stall first at the root in 

order to maintain aileron control a little bit longer. It seems that some 

Europa wings stall completely at the same instance.

I am sure that Don Dykens or Andy would be able to elaborate, but they are 

not speaking to us.

Now, Cliff had stall strips fitted, but were they actually in place on the 

wreck ? Maybe Cliff had removed them again.

Graham S. had a similar accident but survived it fortunately. What were his 

symptoms ?

I stalled once in a  level climb in zero horizontal visibility. I remember a 

slight shaking of the stick and put the nose down a bit. But it was already 

too late, as I was now vertical in an incipient spin. I could make out the 

farm fields in front of my nose. Luckily, I was at 4000 feet and recovered 

very swiftly. I did not have a stall warner, but have now installed the 

Europa kit, and am still calibrating it.

I put the buzzer on the 'shelf' between the camel humps and find it clearly 

audible through my ANR headset. Also, it is powered by a 9V battery. I am 

going to put another probe into the starboard wing, as wings don't always 

stall at the same time.



Karl

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jacobsenra(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:44 am Post subject: Stalls

Guys,



I wouldn't worry to much about this.



The #1 fatal accident cause in the Cessna 150/152 is guess what - stall/spin



The #1 fatal accident cause in the Piper Tomahawk is guess what - stall/spin



Both of these airplanes are the tamest stalling things you can imagine.  In 

the Cessna in particular you have to work hard to even get it into a spin.



The Europa is a great design, and even Cliff's plane stalled ok - even if it 

was no Cessna 150.



The stall strips were on it as of last week.  Much as I would like to blame 

the crash on the plane or setup, it was pilot error pure and simple - and it 

was a big error.  He never should have been that slow (he did that way too 

often and we warned him a lot), and tried to turn in tight from a screwed up 

base leg.



Many have asked me off list if AOA's or Stall warners would have helped and 

I don't think they would.



I once had a friend land his swift gear up.  The tower was yelling at him 

over the radio to put his gear down - but he told me later he could't hear 

them because the gear warning horn was too loud.



There is no substitute for good pilot skills and paying attention to flying 

the plane first.



Bob Jacobsen

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:06 am Post subject: Stalls

I have a hard time believing that the entire wing stalls at the same

time. That would be a serious design flaw. This is what the wash-out is

for, a small twist in the wing that gives a higher angle of attack at

the root compared to the tip. 



--- Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 

 

 Apart from being extremely saddened by Cliff's death I guess we are

 all also 

 very puzzled by the whole accident sequence. We may never know the

 causes 

 leading up to the stall unless something entirely new comes to light

 from 

 the autopsy or the aircraft wreck.

 I always thought that wings were designed to stall first at the root

 in 

 order to maintain aileron control a little bit longer. It seems that

 some 

 Europa wings stall completely at the same instance.

 I am sure that Don Dykens or Andy would be able to elaborate, but

 they are 

 not speaking to us.

 Now, Cliff had stall strips fitted, but were they actually in place

 on the 

 wreck ? Maybe Cliff had removed them again.

 Graham S. had a similar accident but survived it fortunately. What

 were his 

 symptoms ?

 I stalled once in a  level climb in zero horizontal visibility. I

 remember a 

 slight shaking of the stick and put the nose down a bit. But it was

 already 

 too late, as I was now vertical in an incipient spin. I could make

 out the 

 farm fields in front of my nose. Luckily, I was at 4000 feet and

 recovered 

 very swiftly. I did not have a stall warner, but have now installed

 the 

 Europa kit, and am still calibrating it.

 I put the buzzer on the 'shelf' between the camel humps and find it

 clearly 

 audible through my ANR headset. Also, it is powered by a 9V battery.

 I am 

 going to put another probe into the starboard wing, as wings don't

 always 

 stall at the same time.

 

 Karl

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

sidsel.svein(at)oslo.onli
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: Stalls

I believe that the reason for the unexpected, sudden wing drop even on

Europa XS with wing wash-out is that in slip/skid the outer/inner wing is

actually like a swept wing, which stalls at the tip first.  This will

eliminate the wash-out effect, where the root part stalls first when flying

coordinated.



Svein

A225 - now in Norway - ground tests to continue soon

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

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BEBERRY(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:00 am Post subject: Stalls

In a message dated 30/07/2006 17:25:52 GMT Daylight Time,  sidsel.svein(at)oslo.online.no writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I    believe that the reason for the unexpected, sudden wing drop even on

Europa    XS with wing wash-out is that in slip/skid the outer/inner wing is

actually    like a swept wing, which stalls at the tip first.  This will

eliminate    the wash-out effect, where the root part stalls first when    flying

coordinated.



	


 

 Good point Svein - curiously a swept wing is more stable laterally than a  'straight ' wing at flying speeds, for much the same reasons.

  

 Patrick

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

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karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject: Stalls

Thank you Bob, that's what I was waiting for. And I fly since 1959 even 

though I try to be humble.

Karel Vranken

---

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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