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allpro2(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:21 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

I realize this is probably old hat to most of  you, but I am thinking about the 601 XL.  If you were going to jump in  today, which engine would you choose?

  

 The Corvair certainly is attractive price  wise.  The Jabiru 3300 seems to be catching on and the Jabiru factory  certainly does have a complete firewall forward package.  The Rotax 912s is  probably the most expensive.

  

 Actual payload in the real world, is there that  much difference?  Maybe 20 pounds at most??  

  

 Thank you for your comments.

  

 Bill in central Florida

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:26 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

I vote for the Jabiru 3300...... I'll probably  be stoned by the fans of the other engines but its horsepower at the max usable  rpm (110hp (at) 3000 rpm), the fact that it's a direct drive, designed to swing a  prop, six cylinders, one carb, regular aircraft style dual ignition, and a well  tweaked FWF package are big pluses. The factory demo is powered by the 3300 and  it accelerated and climbed well with two of us on board.... I recall 95 mph IAS  and 1,000 fpm climb. The guys who are flying it claim 5 gph (at)125 IAS on  premium auto fuel. I have one on order with Jabiru USA as a matter of  fact.

  

 Ed Moody II

 Rayne, LA

 601XL / 2nd wing

  

 PS: Bill of Georgia may want to chime in on this  since he has some flying experience with the 3300. Bill, what say  you?

  

 From: allpro2(at)bellsouth.net (allpro2(at)bellsouth.net) 

  	  Quote: 	
		     



   I realize this is probably old hat to most    of you, but I am thinking about the 601 XL.  If you were going to jump in    today, which engine would you choose?

    

   Bill in central  Florida

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:33 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

Hi Bill,



 I also plan to buy a Jabiru 3300 for my XL.  I want the maximum climb performance I can get and the numbers published on Zenith Aircraft's site and what I have heard around the patch indicate the Jabiru is the best choice for performance.



 Many people like the Corvair conversion for economical purchase price.  Nobody seems to have any exact performance numbers for these engines, though.  The anecdotal information indicates they are not very powerful when compared to all the other choices mentioned here.



 Rotax engines - particularly the 912ULS - are very popular with European Zodiacs.  They offer good performance and light weight.  On the down side they require a water cooling system and PSRU to turn the prop.  I think the Jabiru is a better choice since it has similar (or somewhat better) performance numbers and over twice the displacement.  That leads me to believe it isn't working as hard to achieve its power output.  The factory built complete planes from CZAW use the Rotax engine and both Cessna and Van's are talking as if this will be their choice for their as yet unannounced LSA entries.



 You can also get a new 601XL from AMD with a Continental 0-200 installed.  Lycoming O-235s also are used.  Both of these choices offer advantages in service availability at every nick and corner of the USA and also offer the possibility of used engine purchase.  The down side of both of these engines is the weight is high and the performance relatively low.  They are also more expensive than the other choices since they are FAA certified.



 One choice I am considering for use if the Jabiru deal falls through for me is the Continental IO-240.  This is two thirds of their old workhorse the IO-360 (the engine I have the most time logged on in certified planes).  It is slightly over the power limits specified on the XL drawings, but I might be willing to take that chance.  On the down side they are nearly impossible to get since Continental doesn't seem to have any sales organization for home builders.  I tried to get information from them and didn't get much response.  I imagine if I were a large manufacturer I would be beating the sales people away with a stick.  They also don't offer anything except the engine, so if I go that way I need to find another source for mount, cowling, baffles, etc.  So, for me, the Jabiru choice comes out first.



 

 Any of these engine choices should work fine in Zodiacs.  You can probably install other ones too.  The plans limit the horsepower from 80 to 120 and (if I recall correctly) the FWF to 300 pounds max.



 Good luck,



 Paul

 XL fuselage



 



 

 At 04:21 PM 7/30/2006, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I realize this is probably old hat to most of you, but I am thinking about the 601 XL.  If you were going to jump in today, which engine would you choose?

  

 The Corvair certainly is attractive price wise.  The Jabiru 3300 seems to be catching on and the Jabiru factory certainly does have a complete firewall forward package.  The Rotax 912s is probably the most expensive.

  

 Actual payload in the real world, is there that much difference?  Maybe 20 pounds at most??  

  

 Thank you for your comments.

  

 Bill in central Florida

tonyplane(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:11 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

I've been flying the Jabiru 3300 in my 601XL for  the past year.  FWF good quality. Just finished my first annual condition  insp and have 120 flight hrs.  Great engine, good gas mileage,  easily uses mogas or 100LL;  Jab sounds like - -- - an airplane  engine.  Would do it again with the Jab.  Jabiru USA is really good to  work with.

  

 Tony Graziano N493TG

  

  

  

             Engine for 601XL        From:              allpro2(at)bellsouth.net ([email]allpro2(at)bellsouth.net?subject=Re:%20Engine%20for%20601XL&replyto=003101c6b42e$6402a8c0(at)Bill[/email])        Date:              [b]Sun Jul 30 - 4:21        PM[/b]

  	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  I realize this is probably old hat to most of you, but I am thinking 

about the 601 XL.  If you were going to jump in today, which engine 

would you choose?



The Corvair certainly is attractive price wise.  The Jabiru 3300 seems 

to be catching on and the Jabiru factory certainly does have a complete 

firewall forward package.  The Rotax 912s is probably the most 

expensive.



Actual payload in the real world, is there that much difference?  Maybe 

20 pounds at most??  



Thank you for your comments.



Bill in central Florida

randy(at)n344rb.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:03 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

I've been debating this same issue for a while now  myself.  Ever since I first decided to build the XL, I've planned on using  a Corvair conversion, bought the manual...etc.  Even after "deciding" on  the Corvair, I still have researched other engine options, including other auto  conversions.  I finally made up my mind, and have decided to go with the  Lycoming O-235, and have purchased one.  Not a slam on other engines, this  was just my choice.  I'm sure Jab, Rotax..etc. owners are happy with their  choice, and I've made mine as well, deciding to go with the O-235.

  

 Thoughts that went into my decision were not  totally based on finances, although that did play a part.  There were other  elements such as reliability, proven track record, available mechanics for the  brand/type, parts availabilty...etc.

  

 Just my .02,

  

 Randy

 XL - Wings - Plans Only

 http://www.n344rb.com

 Do Not Archive

  

 [quote]   ---

rstone4(at)hot.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:05 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

Hay Ed,

      Me too, I have  heard that everything you said about the Jabiru 3300 is true and in addition  there is almost no vibration.  The six cylinders make it a very smooth  running mill just like the Corvair which also has six cylinders.  It's also  cheaper than the Rotax engine of the same power.

  

 Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx

Zodiac XL (Not too far along)

 [quote]   ---

n282rs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

Have any of you guys given any thought to the Franklin engine. The 4 cylinder seems to be comparable to an O-200. It uses the same mount,  weighs about the same and puts out 125 hp/254 ft lbs of torque. Cost $6900 new. They don't appear to have a firewall forward, but it looks like you could use ZACs O-200 cowl and mount.

  

 They also had a 6 cylinder 220 hp that might work for you 801 and 640 builders.

  

 Randy Stout

 San Antonio, TX

 n282rs(at)earthlink.net (n282rs(at)earthlink.net)

 www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21

Kevin Bonds

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Nashville, Tn

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:14 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

How does the fuel burn compare to others.  

     

Kevin Bonds  

Nashville TN  

601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.  

Empennage done; working on wings and engine.  

http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds  

   

do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE   

     

   

  

        

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Stout

 Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 10:31 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Engine for 601XL  

  

     

Have any of you guys given any thought to the Franklin engine. The 4 cylinder seems to be comparable to an O-200. It uses the same mount,  weighs about the same and puts out 125 hp/254 ft lbs of torque. Cost $6900 new. They don't appear to have a firewall forward, but it looks like you could use ZACs O-200 cowl and mount.  

    

   

    

They also had a 6 cylinder 220 hp that might work for you 801 and 640 builders.  

    

   

    

Randy Stout  

    

San Antonio,  TX  

    

n282rs(at)earthlink.net (n282rs(at)earthlink.net)  

    

www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21

_________________
KevinBonds
Nashville, TN
Plans-building Zenith CH601XL w/Corvair Power
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

LHusky(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:32 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

When I went on my demo ride with Roger at the factory, I asked him what  fuel burn was on the plane.  He stated that it was an average of 6.2 GPH at  cruise.  He told me it was a little higher than what the factory  reported.  What are some of you Corvair guys seeing for fuel burn at  cruise.  I have flown a Corvair powered XL and the factory demo.  The  factory demo plane could beat a Corvair in the long run, but I found the climb  to be better in the Corvair powered plane.  Both planes were at gross  weight.  We were hitting 90 mph and 950 fpm in the Jabiru with 660 hrs on  it at the time and 90 mph and 1025 fpm in the Corvair which had 15 hrs on  it.  Just my experience.  I am hoping to fly a XL with a O-235 in 2  weeks.  I want to see what it can do before I make my final engine  choice.  

  

 Larry Husky  

Lakeview, OR 

601XL / Corvair

Building Fuse



Do Not  Archive

n282rs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:11 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

I don't know. The web site didn't say, but I would expect something similar to the O-200.  http://www.franklinengines.com

 

  

Randy Stout<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

  

<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 />San Antonio, TX

  

n282rs(at)earthlink.net (n282rs(at)earthlink.net)

  

www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21



 [quote]--

TxDave

Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 168
Location: Temple, TX

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: Engine for 601XL

I am curious about the Franklin engine, also. They offer an FAA certified 125HP engine that fits an O-200 mount for $6900. However, I have had difficulty finding any information on the internet from homebuilders who are flying with this engine.



Dave Clay

Temple, TX

601 scratch builder



do not archive

mtherr(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:45 am Post subject: Engine for 601XL

A friend and I recently purchased two Franklin engines

for our 601s.  We expect to make the conversion over

the upcoming winter.  This engine looks much more

robust and heavy than our installed Subarus, but the

final weight will be similar (due to getting rid of

the redrive, cooling system, ...)



You're right saying there is not a great deal of info.

 More guys (probably here as well) use the 6 cylinder

engine which is essentially the same construction and

a lot could be learned from those people.  



I read that the o-200 mount does not really fit the

engine, unless you don't install the alternator (there

is a conflict between the alternator and the mount). 

For the o-200 cowling, not sure, but I will most

probably know that soon (I intend to buy the o-200

cowling).  For the engine mount, I'll make one myself

and have it welded by a specialist.

Last week, I bought an Ivo Prop (Magnum model, in

flight adjustable), that I will install on my Subaru

installation and then, will be compatible with (or

better suited for) the Franklin after changing one

plate. I look forward to try this!  



This being said, I'll certainly keep the list informed

as I go through the conversion and flight tests.  I do

expect an increase in performance and a reduction in

maintenance effort.

Michel

--- TxDave <dclaytx2(at)HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <dclaytx2(at)hotmail.com>

 

 I am curious about the Franklin engine, also. They

 offer an FAA certified 125HP engine that fits an

 O-200 mount for $6900. However, I have had

 difficulty finding any information on the internet

 from homebuilders who are flying with this engine.

 

 Dave Clay

 Temple, TX

 601 scratch builder


	




----------------------------

Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ

  http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601

  http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby

  http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby



__________________________________________________

VideoFlyer(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:22 am Post subject: Engine for 601XL

Yes...I'm curious about the Franklin engine, too!  Why haven't we heard much about it?  Sounds like a contender!

  

 Dave

randy(at)n344rb.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:34 am Post subject: Engine for 601XL

The subject of the Franklin engine came up in a unrelated conversation  between myself and an A&P friend a few weeks ago.  He stated to me then  that the Franklin engines are "throw away" engines, meaning when they need to be  rebuilt, you just throw it away and buy another...  He said they didn't  even make an overhaul kit for it...  Whether or not this is true, I'm not  100% sure...  If you are planning to buy a Franklin, this might be  something to check out first..

  

 Thanks,

  

 Randy

 XL - Wings - Plans Only

 http://www.n344rb.com

  

 [quote]   ---

rstone4(at)hot.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:36 am Post subject: Engine for 601XL

I know I will get flamed on this one but  it's my opinion and one of the most sucessful kit manufactures in the country  (RV) is of the same opinion and that is Automobile engines belong in cars and  aircraft engines are the only ones that should be in aircraft.  So Mr Randy  Bryant, you made a good choice.

  

 Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx

Zodiac XL (Not too far along)

 [quote]   ---

randy(at)n344rb.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:14 am Post subject: Engine for 601XL

Yeah, I agree, I didn't/don't want to start another  flame war though...

  

 There were many different thoughts went into my  decision, not just the fact I didn't want to use an automobile engine.  A  lot of it came down to value, what I'm getting for my money...  I've heard  stories of Corvairs getting built in the $2K range, but I've got a feeling, that  I'd be spending in the $3500 range to build it like I wanted it, and maybe more,  since I was planning on having a custom billet crankshaft made for it...   In the back of my mind, I'd always be concerned about the Corvair crankshaft,  nitrided or not.

  

 With all of that said, I'll go farther and open  myself up to flames I'm sure:

 The engine I bought is ready for overhaul.   Everything is there: complete engine, carb, starter, mags, baffling, oil  cooler...etc.  I have a few friends that are  A&P mechanics.  I have a few friends that are good machinists...   We've all talked and by pooling our resources, we think we can have a fresh  O-235 for about $4K...including the cost of the core.  Now here's the  kicker and what I'll probably get flamed for:  It won't be "certified" when  we are done.  I believe you can have a good, solid crank/case combination,  this is what's importants to me, without the word "certified"...  This  word really don't matter a great deal to me in this application... NOW, if  I were installing it on a certified airframe, that would be a different story,  but for an experimental airframe, I don't value that so much...

  

 Thanks,

  

 Randy

 XL - Wings - Plans Only

 http://www.n344rb.com

 Do Not Archive

  

 [quote]   ---

n4546v(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:35 am Post subject: Engine for 601XL

Can't say I agree with your A&P, there are plenty of sixty year old  Franklins still flying in Stinsons, Seabees & Bellancas, newer ones flying  in Maules since the early seventies.  The biggest question is whether they  are still in business.  This is all hearsay:  PZL in Poland who made  Franklins was supposedly bought by P & W.  They didn't intend to  continue the piston engine line.  Has it been sold?  Have they  continued?  I don't know.  I have a PZL 125 4 cyl on the shelf here at  the plant.  We bought it to re-engine our '59 C150.  Everyone who  has NEVER spoken to the FAA at our airport has told us that "field  approvals" are "impossible" to get, so that project is on the back burner until  we get some more time.  I have attached some pics of the engine since most  have never seen one.  This one has a earlier version sump.  I have a  bit of info regarding these engines and would try to answer questions, but  please ask one question at a time, I'm at work and can't write a histoy.   Regarding their design they have many interesting features including a fluid  vibration damper built into the flywheel within the accessory case.

  

 Regards,

  

 Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas

  	  Quote: 	
		      

   Subject: Re: Re: Engine for    601XL

   



   The subject of the Franklin engine came up in a unrelated conversation    between myself and an A&P friend a few weeks ago.  He stated to me    then that the Franklin engines are "throw away" engines, meaning when they    need to be rebuilt, you just throw it away and buy another...  He said    they didn't even make an overhaul kit for it...  Whether or not this is    true, I'm not 100% sure...  If you are planning to buy a Franklin, this    might be something to check out first..

    

   Thanks,

    

   Randy

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randy(at)n344rb.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:32 am Post subject: Engine for 601XL

I'm not saying that I agree with him either, that's just what he said.. On  Franklin's site, they say they have "field replaceable" cylinder  sleeves...  You'd think with that, they'd also have other parts...

  

 Randy

 Do Not Archive

  

 [quote]   ---

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:22 am Post subject: Re: Engine for 601XL

I cringe every time I hear of an in-flight failure of an auto conversion. If you plan to use an auto conversion for the first time, I'd stick to reputable VW, Subaru, Honda, Harley or Mazda engine converters with a good track record in aviation. That's just one man's opinion.



I have a Rotax 912ULS and love it for the power/weight ratio and reliability. It's not a surprise that so many new SLSA use the Rotax 912/912S. 



Having said that, I sometimes yern for a real experimental like the rotary engine (Wankel) ... because of the extreemely good power to weight ratio, the much reduced vibrations and the ability to boost intake pressure far beyond a typical piston engine (no overhead valve leak). The closest Wankel match for the 601 or 701 would probably be Rotamax.



Downside to the 912S, Subaru and Wankel is need for water cooling. It's just one more factor to deal with ... but minor in my opinion.



If you wanted to go totally radical (but pricey): http://www.innodyn.com/aviation/action.html 



There's also a list of experimental engines here: http://www.aviator.cc/engines.html

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

Last edited by David X on Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total

pmaxpmax(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:58 am Post subject: Engine for 601XL

Just for the record, two other reasons I chose the Corvair conversion:



1.  The education of building the engine myself was invaluable.  I learned 

more from that experience than any other part of the project.  If you want a 

plans-built experience, this is the way to go.



2. The cool factor is large.  You wouldn't believe the number of people who 

are interested when you tell them the engine is converted from a '65 

Corvair, and that you built it yourself.  They may even write major 

newspaper articles about you if you build it (with large color photo).



3. <bonus reason>  The Corvair engine community is like a family.

Phil Maxson

601XL/Corvair

Northwest New Jersey

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