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N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com
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 Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:21 am Post subject: What upgrades are possible on a |
 |
|
Can I replace the vacuum AH completely with a
Sporty's electric AI as long as I'm never attempting to use the plane for IFR?
Dave
At 09:45 AM 7/30/2006, you wrote:
| Quote: |
The Sporty's or other electric AI gives him an
all electric backup to the vacuum gyros without
worrying about all the other stuff. Better than
the SVS system as no power setting changes
needed, and FAA has already blessed using
electric AI to replace electric T&B or TC with an advisory circular.
Brian Lloyd wrote:
>
>On Jul 29, 2006, at 8:23 PM, Dave N6030X wrote:
>
>>I would dearly love to hire an A&P mechanic to
>>pull out the vacuum pump and vacuum
>>instruments, put a B&C backup alternator on
>>the vacuum pad, mount a Flight Cheetah with XM
>>Weather and solid state Artificial Horizon at
>>the center of a high-tech T-arrangement, re-do
>>the instrument panel so the instruments are
>>more logically laid out, put the critical
>>engine monitoring instruments on the left side where I can see them, etc.
>>
>>What latitudes does one have to do that sort
>>of thing? Can you put a B&C backup alternator on any airplane?
>I have done some of this with certified
>aircraft in the past but not as completely as
>you are suggesting. I have done it for a Piper Comanche and a Piper Clipper.
>What you are after is a one-time STC on a form
>337 for alternations. Fabricating a new panel
>and rearranging the locations of instruments
>does not require a 337 so long as the it does
>not require modification of any load-bearing
>structure. In my Comanche the panels are on
>vibration isolators and are not structural. I
>was able to move instruments to construct a
>"modern" 6-pack layout and center stack for my radios without any problem.
>In my Comanche I also constructed an e-bus out
>of what was the avionics bus and added a second
>battery charged by the main battery through a
>diode. The second battery could be directly
>switched to the e-bus to power selected radios
>and TC. That did require a 337 but it did not
>seem to give the FSDO heartburn. The only
>problem is, I did that in 1985 and they seem to
>have been more flexible then than they are now.
>As for adding a B&C dynamo, you can probably
>forget it. The FAA tried to put Bill Bainbridge
>out of business on the basis that he was
>intentionally selling his stuff to people for
>their certified aircraft (it was another Bob
>Hoover deal). They eventually backed down under
>pressure from the community but it had to go
>all the way up to the Administrator before it got fixed.
>I also kept the vacuum instruments and added a
>Precise Flight standby vacuum system. It
>requires me to reduce throttle to generate
>vacuum in the intake manifold but it works just
>fine and will get you back on the ground.
>It would make so much sense to build an
>all-electric panel but the FAA is risk-averse
>and probably won't buy into that idea. I am
>going to try to talk the FSDO into signing off
>on adding a Dynon to the panel without removing
>any of the existing instruments. If all the
>certified stuff remains they shouldn't have a
>problem. The only worry I have is that I will
>have to tap into the pitot-static system and that may bother them. We'll see.
>Good luck!
>
>Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
>brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
>+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
>— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>http://wiki.matronics.com
>
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khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:46 am Post subject: What upgrades are possible on a |
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|
If this is a type-certificated aircraft, and you remove a component
(e.g. the vacuum AI), then the aircraft no longer conforms to the
type design, and the airworthiness certificate is no longer valid.
Kevin Horton
On 30 Jul 2006, at 15:14, Dave N6030X wrote:
| Quote: |
<N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com>
Can I replace the vacuum AH completely with a Sporty's electric AI
as long as I'm never attempting to use the plane for IFR?
Dave
At 09:45 AM 7/30/2006, you wrote:
>
> <kellym(at)aviating.com>
>
> The Sporty's or other electric AI gives him an all electric backup
> to the vacuum gyros without worrying about all the other stuff.
> Better than the SVS system as no power setting changes needed, and
> FAA has already blessed using electric AI to replace electric T&B
> or TC with an advisory circular.
>
> Brian Lloyd wrote:
>>
>> yak(at)lloyd.com>
>> On Jul 29, 2006, at 8:23 PM, Dave N6030X wrote:
>>
>>> I would dearly love to hire an A&P mechanic to pull out the
>>> vacuum pump and vacuum instruments, put a B&C backup alternator
>>> on the vacuum pad, mount a Flight Cheetah with XM Weather and
>>> solid state Artificial Horizon at the center of a high-tech T-
>>> arrangement, re-do the instrument panel so the instruments are
>>> more logically laid out, put the critical engine monitoring
>>> instruments on the left side where I can see them, etc.
>>>
>>> What latitudes does one have to do that sort of thing? Can you
>>> put a B&C backup alternator on any airplane?
>> I have done some of this with certified aircraft in the past but
>> not as completely as you are suggesting. I have done it for a
>> Piper Comanche and a Piper Clipper.
>> What you are after is a one-time STC on a form 337 for
>> alternations. Fabricating a new panel and rearranging the
>> locations of instruments does not require a 337 so long as the it
>> does not require modification of any load-bearing structure. In
>> my Comanche the panels are on vibration isolators and are not
>> structural. I was able to move instruments to construct a
>> "modern" 6-pack layout and center stack for my radios without any
>> problem.
>> In my Comanche I also constructed an e-bus out of what was the
>> avionics bus and added a second battery charged by the main
>> battery through a diode. The second battery could be directly
>> switched to the e-bus to power selected radios and TC. That did
>> require a 337 but it did not seem to give the FSDO heartburn. The
>> only problem is, I did that in 1985 and they seem to have been
>> more flexible then than they are now.
>> As for adding a B&C dynamo, you can probably forget it. The FAA
>> tried to put Bill Bainbridge out of business on the basis that he
>> was intentionally selling his stuff to people for their certified
>> aircraft (it was another Bob Hoover deal). They eventually backed
>> down under pressure from the community but it had to go all the
>> way up to the Administrator before it got fixed.
>> I also kept the vacuum instruments and added a Precise Flight
>> standby vacuum system. It requires me to reduce throttle to
>> generate vacuum in the intake manifold but it works just fine and
>> will get you back on the ground.
>> It would make so much sense to build an all-electric panel but
>> the FAA is risk-averse and probably won't buy into that idea. I
>> am going to try to talk the FSDO into signing off on adding a
>> Dynon to the panel without removing any of the existing
>> instruments. If all the certified stuff remains they shouldn't
>> have a problem. The only worry I have is that I will have to tap
>> into the pitot-static system and that may bother them. We'll see.
>> Good luck!
>>
>> Brian Lloyd
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FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject: What upgrades are possible on a |
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|
In a message dated 7/30/06 3:23:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com writes:
| Quote: | Can I replace the vacuum AH completely with a
Sporty's electric AI as long as I'm never attempting to use the plane for
IFR?
Dave
=====================
|
Dave:
Prove it! Prove that you will never attempt or never enter an IFR condition.
The FAA does not care whether you attempt it or not ... You are talking about
a GA aircraft that has been certified with an equipment list. If you wish to
change to something that is not on the equipment list you must start with a
337. In this case and especially if you plan on keeping the vacuum driven
system and adding the electrical AI the FAA will let you go with their blessing.
After all the Electronic AI is only a backup for the Vacuum AI. BUT, what
happens if you loose electrical power and the ONLY AI is electrical? No problem
.. You think...You will just include in your scan the T&B ... Whoops ... The
T&B is also electrical. Now you have NO BACKUP! Sorry Charlie - Dave ... FAA
does not like that scenario they want a back up ... Got an Electrical backup
system w/Buss?
NOW< if you want to make the Electrical AI your primary by putting it into
your 'T' scan area, that is OK. You are still using the vacuum AI as your
back-up.
See very easy ... Just think BELTS & SUSPENDERS and don't forget to button
your pants too.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
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richard(at)RILEY.NET
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject: What upgrades are possible on a |
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In a slightly different direction...
How about if I want to change the very rudimentary engine instruments
I have now to one of the all-in-one non-TSO'd glass engine
packages? Can that be done on a 337 form?
At 01:00 PM 7/30/2006, you wrote:
| Quote: |
In a message dated 7/30/06 3:23:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com writes:
> Can I replace the vacuum AH completely with a
> Sporty's electric AI as long as I'm never attempting to use the plane for
> IFR?
>
> Dave
=====================
Dave:
Prove it! Prove that you will never attempt or never enter an IFR condition.
The FAA does not care whether you attempt it or not ... You are talking about
a GA aircraft that has been certified with an equipment list. If you wish to
change to something that is not on the equipment list you must start with a
337. In this case and especially if you plan on keeping the vacuum driven
system and adding the electrical AI the FAA will let you go with
their blessing.
After all the Electronic AI is only a backup for the Vacuum AI. BUT, what
happens if you loose electrical power and the ONLY AI is
electrical? No problem
... You think...You will just include in your scan the T&B ... Whoops ... The
T&B is also electrical. Now you have NO BACKUP! Sorry Charlie -
Dave ... FAA
does not like that scenario they want a back up ... Got an Electrical backup
system w/Buss?
NOW< if you want to make the Electrical AI your primary by putting it into
your 'T' scan area, that is OK. You are still using the vacuum AI as your
back-up.
See very easy ... Just think BELTS & SUSPENDERS and don't forget to button
your pants too.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:02 pm Post subject: What upgrades are possible on a |
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|
Well, of course I can't prove it, but if I fly into IFR conditions by
accident in an aircraft that is not equipped for IFR, then I don't
have a glide slope either.
By the way, looking at the M20A type certificate, it does not list
any instruments at all. It says the vacuum pump is OPTIONAL for
VFR. Is there some other place the required instruments would be listed?
Looking over the maintenance logs, the vacuum pump has had to be
replaced so many times, it's not funny. It currently needs replacing
again. That does not sound like a very reliable or safe system,
compared to the electrical system.
I'm one of those people who looks at idiotic things and drives
authorities crazy by incessantly asking "why". I'm also a software
engineer and electronic tinkerer. I don't know anything about
vacuum, but I know a lot about electronics. I programmed my own EFIS
with moving map display and flight instruments on a CRT before the
term EFIS existed.
I understand the perverse logic of requiring an unreliable and unsafe
design to be perpetuated in order to be able to retreat behind the
semblance of security and safety that lies in massive amounts of
paperwork. But surely there must be ways of increasing safety and
reliability in spite of the bureaucrats. Maybe I'll just stick the
old vacuum instruments off on the right side of the panel and use
velcro to attach my "portable" equipment in front of me.
I guess what I really need to do is go introduce myself at the FSDO
and have a chat.
Dave Morris
At 03:00 PM 7/30/2006, you wrote:
| Quote: |
In a message dated 7/30/06 3:23:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com writes:
> Can I replace the vacuum AH completely with a
> Sporty's electric AI as long as I'm never attempting to use the plane for
> IFR?
>
> Dave
=====================
Dave:
Prove it! Prove that you will never attempt or never enter an IFR condition.
The FAA does not care whether you attempt it or not ... You are talking about
a GA aircraft that has been certified with an equipment list. If you wish to
change to something that is not on the equipment list you must start with a
337. In this case and especially if you plan on keeping the vacuum driven
system and adding the electrical AI the FAA will let you go with
their blessing.
After all the Electronic AI is only a backup for the Vacuum AI. BUT, what
happens if you loose electrical power and the ONLY AI is
electrical? No problem
... You think...You will just include in your scan the T&B ... Whoops ... The
T&B is also electrical. Now you have NO BACKUP! Sorry Charlie -
Dave ... FAA
does not like that scenario they want a back up ... Got an Electrical backup
system w/Buss?
NOW< if you want to make the Electrical AI your primary by putting it into
your 'T' scan area, that is OK. You are still using the vacuum AI as your
back-up.
See very easy ... Just think BELTS & SUSPENDERS and don't forget to button
your pants too.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
|
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brian
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:15 pm Post subject: What upgrades are possible on a |
|
|
On Jul 30, 2006, at 4:40 PM, Richard Riley wrote:
| Quote: |
<richard(at)riley.net>
In a slightly different direction...
How about if I want to change the very rudimentary engine
instruments I have now to one of the all-in-one non-TSO'd glass
engine packages? Can that be done on a 337 form?
|
You are in for a more difficult time as you are asking to remove and
replace the instruments with which the aircraft was certified and is
part of the original certification paperwork. Some outfits have STCs
to replace the standard gauges with their new electronic gauges but
you have to ask if they have an STC for your aircraft.
OTOH, if you are just adding something in and you leave the existing
gauges with which the aircraft was certified, you should have very
little problem.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery |
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Bill Denton
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 97
Location: Chicago, IL USA
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:16 pm Post subject: What upgrades are possible on a |
|
|
JFTR, the Sporty's, and most of the other "backup" AIs include a battery
backup...
--
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:52 pm Post subject: What upgrades are possible on a |
|
|
If your vacuum pumps are failing in less than 500 hours regularly, there
is something wrong with the install, the garlock seal, the hoses or
filters. Get it fixed right, and a vacuum pump is a very reliable
system. There are companies selling them with over 1000hr warranties
today. I've seen a LOT more electrical failures than vacuum in 30 years
of flying. You need to consult with a patient IA on what is required on
your plane. You need the factory original equipment list, that came in
the FAA approved flight manual...the one with your tail number on it and
signed by the FAA. If you don't have it, contact Mooney. They have the
records AFAIK and will help. Mooney doesn't have on the type certificate
items other than engine/electrical, prop etc that affect W&B. Since it
was factory certified for IFR flight, I would expect those items to be
on the equipment list. AFAIK, no one has STC'd a standby alternator for
early Mooneys. The only place to put one would be on the vacuum pump
pad. Unless one has been STC'd for the O-360, you would spend a fortune
getting it approved.
Dave N6030X wrote:
| Quote: |
<N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com>
Well, of course I can't prove it, but if I fly into IFR conditions by
accident in an aircraft that is not equipped for IFR, then I don't have
a glide slope either.
By the way, looking at the M20A type certificate, it does not list any
instruments at all. It says the vacuum pump is OPTIONAL for VFR. Is
there some other place the required instruments would be listed?
Looking over the maintenance logs, the vacuum pump has had to be
replaced so many times, it's not funny. It currently needs replacing
again. That does not sound like a very reliable or safe system,
compared to the electrical system.
I'm one of those people who looks at idiotic things and drives
authorities crazy by incessantly asking "why". I'm also a software
engineer and electronic tinkerer. I don't know anything about vacuum,
but I know a lot about electronics. I programmed my own EFIS with
moving map display and flight instruments on a CRT before the term EFIS
existed.
I understand the perverse logic of requiring an unreliable and unsafe
design to be perpetuated in order to be able to retreat behind the
semblance of security and safety that lies in massive amounts of
paperwork. But surely there must be ways of increasing safety and
reliability in spite of the bureaucrats. Maybe I'll just stick the old
vacuum instruments off on the right side of the panel and use velcro to
attach my "portable" equipment in front of me.
I guess what I really need to do is go introduce myself at the FSDO and
have a chat.
Dave Morris
At 03:00 PM 7/30/2006, you wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 7/30/06 3:23:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com writes:
>
> > Can I replace the vacuum AH completely with a
> > Sporty's electric AI as long as I'm never attempting to use the
> plane for
> > IFR?
> >
> > Dave
> =====================
> Dave:
>
> Prove it! Prove that you will never attempt or never enter an IFR
> condition.
>
> The FAA does not care whether you attempt it or not ... You are
> talking about
> a GA aircraft that has been certified with an equipment list. If you
> wish to
> change to something that is not on the equipment list you must start
> with a
> 337. In this case and especially if you plan on keeping the vacuum
> driven
> system and adding the electrical AI the FAA will let you go with their
> blessing.
> After all the Electronic AI is only a backup for the Vacuum AI. BUT,
> what
> happens if you loose electrical power and the ONLY AI is electrical?
> No problem
> ... You think...You will just include in your scan the T&B ... Whoops
> ... The
> T&B is also electrical. Now you have NO BACKUP! Sorry Charlie - Dave
> ... FAA
> does not like that scenario they want a back up ... Got an Electrical
> backup
> system w/Buss?
>
> NOW< if you want to make the Electrical AI your primary by putting it
> into
> your 'T' scan area, that is OK. You are still using the vacuum AI as
> your
> back-up.
>
> See very easy ... Just think BELTS & SUSPENDERS and don't forget to
> button
> your pants too.
>
> Barry
> "Chop'd Liver"
>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
http://wiki.matronics.com
|
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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brian
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject: What upgrades are possible on a |
|
|
On Jul 30, 2006, at 4:58 PM, Dave N6030X wrote:
| Quote: |
<N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com>
Well, of course I can't prove it, but if I fly into IFR conditions
by accident in an aircraft that is not equipped for IFR, then I
don't have a glide slope either.
|
You don't need GS to fly IFR. It just means you are limited to non-
precision approaches.
| Quote: | By the way, looking at the M20A type certificate, it does not list
any instruments at all. It says the vacuum pump is OPTIONAL for
VFR. Is there some other place the required instruments would be
listed?
Looking over the maintenance logs, the vacuum pump has had to be
replaced so many times, it's not funny. It currently needs
replacing again. That does not sound like a very reliable or safe
system, compared to the electrical system.
|
Nope, it's not. It is horribly unreliable. But the FAA approves it.
It is a regulatory thing, not a safety or sanity thing.
| Quote: | I'm one of those people who looks at idiotic things and drives
authorities crazy by incessantly asking "why".
|
Ah, you are evil then. 
| Quote: | I'm also a software engineer and electronic tinkerer. I don't know
anything about vacuum, but I know a lot about electronics. I
programmed my own EFIS with moving map display and flight
instruments on a CRT before the term EFIS existed.
|
You are not the first.
| Quote: |
I understand the perverse logic of requiring an unreliable and
unsafe design to be perpetuated in order to be able to retreat
behind the semblance of security and safety that lies in massive
amounts of paperwork. But surely there must be ways of increasing
safety and reliability in spite of the bureaucrats. Maybe I'll
just stick the old vacuum instruments off on the right side of the
panel and use velcro to attach my "portable" equipment in front of me.
I guess what I really need to do is go introduce myself at the FSDO
and have a chat.
|
That seems most sensible. Talk to them about what you want to do and
then get their blessing up-front.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery |
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brian
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:35 pm Post subject: What upgrades are possible on a |
|
|
On Jul 30, 2006, at 10:48 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
| Quote: |
<kellym(at)aviating.com>
If your vacuum pumps are failing in less than 500 hours regularly,
there is something wrong with the install, the garlock seal, the
hoses or filters. Get it fixed right, and a vacuum pump is a very
reliable system.
|
A *wet* vaccum pump is a reliable system. Dry vacuum pumps fail with
some regularity. If you get 500 hrs out of a dry pump you are doing
well.
| Quote: | There are companies selling them with over 1000hr warranties today.
|
Wet pumps, yes. I have not seen a dry pump with a warranty that long.
| Quote: | I've seen a LOT more electrical failures than vacuum in 30 years of
flying.
|
Well, my experience is different. I have had more vacuum pumps fail
than alternators by a wide margin and when the alternator fails I
still have the battery.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
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_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery |
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:16 pm Post subject: What upgrades are possible on a |
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Rapco and Tempest both offer that warranty on dry pumps. I wouldn't
touch a wet pump, I don't want an oil soaked belly and I don't have room
for a triple stage separator. I'm over 500 hours on my current Rapco
pump now..and on my plane it drives a retractable step, and wing leveler
system as well as the gyros.
Brian Lloyd wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 30, 2006, at 10:48 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> <kellym(at)aviating.com>
>
> If your vacuum pumps are failing in less than 500 hours regularly,
> there is something wrong with the install, the garlock seal, the hoses
> or filters. Get it fixed right, and a vacuum pump is a very reliable
> system.
A *wet* vaccum pump is a reliable system. Dry vacuum pumps fail with
some regularity. If you get 500 hrs out of a dry pump you are doing well.
> There are companies selling them with over 1000hr warranties today.
Wet pumps, yes. I have not seen a dry pump with a warranty that long.
> I've seen a LOT more electrical failures than vacuum in 30 years of
> flying.
Well, my experience is different. I have had more vacuum pumps fail than
alternators by a wide margin and when the alternator fails I still have
the battery.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
http://wiki.matronics.com
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:09 am Post subject: What upgrades are possible on a |
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Good Afternoon Barry,
Been away at Oshkosh for a while so may have missed
many important portions of this thread, but you seem
to be saying that if something came on the airplane
from the factory and it is listed in the equipment
list, that it would take a 337 to get it off.
If that is your assertion, I do not believe it is
correct.
There are many optional items added to many aircraft
at the factory. If it is listed as optional in the
TCDSs, all it takes is a logbook entry to legally
remove that component. Likewise, if it is listed as a
piece of optional equipment in the TCDSs, it can be
added with nothing more than an entry in the ship's
papers by an appropriately rated maintenance
technician.
In any airplane that was type certificated until very
recently, there is NO requirement for any instrument
power redundancy. You can have all electric or all
pneumatic. There is no particular source specified.
The instruments that are required for IFR flight are
as listed in the pertinent FARs. Once again, no
redundancy required.
The only things that MUST be on the airplane are those
things listed as required equipment and/or those
devices listed as required by the FARs for the
operation to be conducted.
Does that statement sound correct to you? It does to
me!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Bob Siegfried
Stearman N3977A
--- FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: |
FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
In a message dated 7/30/06 3:23:05 PM Eastern
Daylight Time,
N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com writes:
> Can I replace the vacuum AH completely with a
> Sporty's electric AI as long as I'm never
attempting to use the plane for
> IFR?
>
> Dave
=====================
Dave:
Prove it! Prove that you will never attempt or
never enter an IFR condition.
The FAA does not care whether you attempt it or not
... You are talking about
a GA aircraft that has been certified with an
equipment list. If you wish to
change to something that is not on the equipment
list you must start with a
337. In this case and especially if you plan on
keeping the vacuum driven
system and adding the electrical AI the FAA will let
you go with their blessing.
After all the Electronic AI is only a backup for the
Vacuum AI. BUT, what
happens if you loose electrical power and the ONLY
AI is electrical? No problem
... You think...You will just include in your scan
the T&B ... Whoops ... The
T&B is also electrical. Now you have NO BACKUP!
Sorry Charlie - Dave ... FAA
does not like that scenario they want a back up ...
Got an Electrical backup
system w/Buss?
NOW< if you want to make the Electrical AI your
primary by putting it into
your 'T' scan area, that is OK. You are still using
the vacuum AI as your
back-up.
See very easy ... Just think BELTS & SUSPENDERS and
don't forget to button
your pants too.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
browse
Subscriptions page,
FAQ,
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Admin.
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oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:30 am Post subject: What upgrades are possible on a |
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Good Afternoon Kevin,
I think you will find that very few airplanes list in
their Type Certificate Data Sheets specifically what
instrumentation is required for IFR flight. Such data
is found in the FARs regulating IFR operations.
In addition, only the most recently certificated
aircraft have any requirement for redundancy of power
sources.
For the vast majority of the GA fleet, any certified
electric gyro can be used in lieu of any pneumatically
powered one.
Nothing more than an entry in the ship's papers by an
appropriately certificated technician is required.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Stearman N3977A
--- Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
If this is a type-certificated aircraft, and you
remove a component
(e.g. the vacuum AI), then the aircraft no longer
conforms to the
type design, and the airworthiness certificate is no
longer valid.
Kevin Horton
On 30 Jul 2006, at 15:14, Dave N6030X wrote:
>
N6030X
> <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com>
>
> Can I replace the vacuum AH completely with a
Sporty's electric AI
> as long as I'm never attempting to use the plane
for IFR?
>
> Dave
>
>
> At 09:45 AM 7/30/2006, you wrote:
>>
McMullen
>> <kellym(at)aviating.com>
>>
>> The Sporty's or other electric AI gives him an
all electric backup
>> to the vacuum gyros without worrying about all
the other stuff.
>> Better than the SVS system as no power setting
changes needed, and
>> FAA has already blessed using electric AI to
replace electric T&B
>> or TC with an advisory circular.
>>
>> Brian Lloyd wrote:
>>>
Lloyd <brian-
>>> yak(at)lloyd.com>
>>> On Jul 29, 2006, at 8:23 PM, Dave N6030X wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would dearly love to hire an A&P mechanic to
pull out the
>>>> vacuum pump and vacuum instruments, put a B&C
backup alternator
>>>> on the vacuum pad, mount a Flight Cheetah with
XM Weather and
>>>> solid state Artificial Horizon at the center of
a high-tech T-
>>>> arrangement, re-do the instrument panel so the
instruments are
>>>> more logically laid out, put the critical
engine monitoring
>>>> instruments on the left side where I can see
them, etc.
>>>>
>>>> What latitudes does one have to do that sort of
thing? Can you
>>>> put a B&C backup alternator on any airplane?
>>> I have done some of this with certified aircraft
in the past but
>>> not as completely as you are suggesting. I have
done it for a
>>> Piper Comanche and a Piper Clipper.
>>> What you are after is a one-time STC on a form
337 for
>>> alternations. Fabricating a new panel and
rearranging the
>>> locations of instruments does not require a 337
so long as the it
>>> does not require modification of any
load-bearing structure. In
>>> my Comanche the panels are on vibration
isolators and are not
>>> structural. I was able to move instruments to
construct a
>>> "modern" 6-pack layout and center stack for my
radios without any
>>> problem.
>>> In my Comanche I also constructed an e-bus out
of what was the
>>> avionics bus and added a second battery charged
by the main
>>> battery through a diode. The second battery
could be directly
>>> switched to the e-bus to power selected radios
and TC. That did
>>> require a 337 but it did not seem to give the
FSDO heartburn. The
>>> only problem is, I did that in 1985 and they
seem to have been
>>> more flexible then than they are now.
>>> As for adding a B&C dynamo, you can probably
forget it. The FAA
>>> tried to put Bill Bainbridge out of business on
the basis that he
>>> was intentionally selling his stuff to people
for their certified
>>> aircraft (it was another Bob Hoover deal). They
eventually backed
>>> down under pressure from the community but it
had to go all the
>>> way up to the Administrator before it got fixed.
>>> I also kept the vacuum instruments and added a
Precise Flight
>>> standby vacuum system. It requires me to reduce
throttle to
>>> generate vacuum in the intake manifold but it
works just fine and
>>> will get you back on the ground.
>>> It would make so much sense to build an
all-electric panel but
>>> the FAA is risk-averse and probably won't buy
into that idea. I
>>> am going to try to talk the FSDO into signing
off on adding a
>>> Dynon to the panel without removing any of the
existing
>>> instruments. If all the certified stuff remains
they shouldn't
>>> have a problem. The only worry I have is that I
will have to tap
>>> into the pitot-static system and that may bother
them. We'll see.
>>> Good luck!
>>>
>>> Brian Lloyd
browse
Subscriptions page,
FAQ,
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Admin.
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